From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #241 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/241 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 241 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) [ Kathryn Andersen ] Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing [ Ika ] Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing [ Calle Dybedahl ] Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) [ Ika ] Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing [ Ika ] Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ Ika ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:25:30 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) Message-ID: <20000827102529.B4556@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 10:34:25AM +0000, Sally Manton wrote: > I've come up with a possible for Blake - unfortunately, it will mean nothing > AT ALL to non-Australians (sorry), and they share nothing *physically* but > curls and a gorgeous smile ... > > Ernie Dingo. Oh my. Well, *that's* casting against type, I must admit. But I don't think he's got the charisma or complexity for Blake. Mind you, if you want curls and gorgeous smile, then I have my vote: Garrett Maggart for Blake! (grin) (Actually, he might do a reasonable Vila, now that I think of it...) Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Vera: Now, Mr. Sandburg, the department requests all incoming personnel to submit to a drug test. I hope that's not a problem for you. Blair: Oh, come on! Do I look like that would be a problem? (pause) Don't answer that. (The Sentinel: Siege) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat \_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:36:38 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-ID: <20000827103638.C4556@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 08:32:32AM -0700, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > learns fairly early on to try to change Avon's *mind*, not his heart. > There is some emotional leakage due to Blake's nature, but it's > mostly incidental - his appeals to Avon quickly become based on > logic; and the consequence is that he reaches Avon's heart as well. > [The reason for this is easiest explained by type theory: as an INTP, > feeling is Avon's *last* (4th) function; under stress he will reject it, > which means that an emotional appeal from someone who claims > to be a friend is the *least* likely way to persuade him - it will > IMO be viewed as emotional blackmail; it would either have the > opposite effect and/or damage the friendship. However, Blakes > discretion in this will earn Avon's appreciation.] Even if Avon is INTJ rather than INTP (I am still not convinced that he's INTP, though he might be) then he's still likely to object to emotional appeals as emotional blackmail and manipulation; the logical intellectual appeal is still the one most likely to succeed. For an INTP, Thinking is the first function, iNtuition is the second; for an INTJ, iNtuition is the first function, Thinking is the second; so both types have a high regard for logic. Of course, we could simply put this subtle debate down to this: both Mistral and I identify with Avon. She's an INTP, so she thinks Avon is an INTP. I'm an INTJ, so I think Avon's an INTJ. Or we could throw our hands up in the air and say that the writers didn't know type theory. (grin) Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To err is human. To blame it on a computer is even more so. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat \_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 07:39:27 GMT From: predatrix@ntlworld.com (Predatrix) To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] Five minutes after _Voice from the Past_... Message-ID: <39adc1cf.333409177@smtp.ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, Sally, I dunno about 24 hours. I can do five minutes, though. [snippet] "What d'you mean, 'unfortunately i'm myself again', Avon? What exactly has been happening?" Blake asked, in that one-sane-man-against-a-crowd-of-lunatics voice. Avon gave him one of the very thin smiles he parcelled out to people who were Not In His Good Books. Vila jumped in, "Well, you made me think Avon and Cally were pairing off, and you said we had to gang up against the others, and you were hypnotised so you kept going loony, and then you made me go down to this really crap asteroid _instead of Del 10_," he wailed, "and you said that for the sake of Truth and Freedom we had to go along with someone we found there." "Tell Blake who "someone" was so that he can appreciate the full beauty of his plan," Avon said, with a rather bigger grin. "Travis in a mummy suit with a funny voice. They all thought he was this great revolutionary bloke with lots of injuries," Vila said. "Until Servalan showed up," Jenna put in. Blake put his head in his hands, then raised it to face his crew with considerable courage. "If I apologise unreservedly, and make very serious plans to kill Travis and Servalan, and promise to listen to Orac if he says my mind is not my own, can we forget about all this and never, _ever,_ refer to it again? Please?" Avon gave him a withering look. "I find I need a cup of tea after all this strain. Go and put a pot on, Blake, and we'll consider it." Blake went to make the tea without another word. [end snippet] Cheers, Pred'x ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 07:37:52 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] In Praise of Dark and Dysfunctional ... (was: Why Not Blake II?) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mistral writes: Substitute 'Avon is a bastard' for 'Avon is BAD' and I think you have something there ... He's a mixed bag of good, bad and rather-hard-to-categorise, as you say. Actually, Avon often reminds me very strongly of the little girl with the little curl. For that matter so does Blake - they're both strong men of strong character, and both their good and bad traits are therefore heightened, stronger than the less forceful personalities in the show. Maybe one should go over what one does see as the most important of - lets not use the word 'virtues' in deference to the poor dear's feelings - his good qualities (besides the way he looks in leather, that is. I'm afraid, shallow as I am, all the virtues and moral complexities in the world wouldn't make me love an Avon who looked like Egrorian). There's that rather singular but unshakeable brand of honesty, which insists that he will not (knowingly) lie to himself or about himself - that makes him constantly seek to warn the others, keep them wary of him, keep them from trusting him, but also means that he's forced, albeit begrudgingly, to live up to trust given, even when he didn't want it and openly rejects it (this I love about him - it's not *his* fault that Blake insists on trusting him, but he still reluctantly accepts the responsibility that goes with it.) And of course, it means having given his word, he will keep it through hell, high water and alien invasions (Star One). He has a great deal of physical courage, but even more he has moral courage, if of a different type than Blake or Cally or Gan. Having chosen his own path, he accepts the right of others to condemn him for what he is and does (in fact, he sometimes seems to welcome it :-)). He will accept the results of what he does, good, bad or absolutely appalling ("I let her have the Liberator ..." no actually he didn't, and he tried to stop Tarrant doing so. But it was mostly his doing that Tarrant was in that position, so he takes the primary guilt on himself). And he will do it without trying to excuse or placate (Hostage is a good case in point). His rare (in all meanings of the word) capacity for love and loyalty ... Even for those crew members for whom he feels very little personally, he is prepared to take serious risks (though the amount of risk he will countenance is very definitely *not* limitless and can be subject to revision without warning, as in Breakdown). What he's prepared to go through those few he does consider important is staggering, and he will do it with absolutely no expectation of gratitude or even recognition (Anna is *dead*, after all ... and in fact when Blake does try to thank him, Avon quite often gets snarlier). Avon's self*less* streak is both small and very selective, and overshadowed by the much larger selfish one, but it is there when someone important to him needs it ... There are others qualities (his intellectual brilliance and openness, his gorgeous sense of humour and ability to laugh at himself, his tenacity and strength of will ...) but these are the ones I personally place most importance on. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 07:38:47 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Tis Different All Right (Was: Why Not Blake II?) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After I wrote: Mistral queried: Somehow that doesn't strike me as enough. They were both a bit of the snappish side before the attack - in the wonderful opening dialogue, Avon is clearly being *deliberately* provocative, for no adequate reason, and Blake seems more than happy to *be* provoked (I love this scene, the way they can work together and fight at the same time, quite seamlessly - something that keeps on throughout the episode, the coil scene being another example). Me again: <[j] the twenty-four hours after Voice. God, I wanted to see the twenty-four hours after Voice;> Mistral: For the angst, of course . It's infuriating, we fade out *just* as things are about to get interesting, if Avon and Cally don't catch up with Fearless Leader before he reaches the flight deck and trips over the dead body of someone he doesn't even recall being on the ship ... Blake is going to be *devastated*, IMO, when he finds out what's been going on in his (virtual) absence, that the Federation and the criminotherapists still have their hooks in his mind, that he's been used and abused yet *again*, that it so nearly worked. Avon and the others have to come to terms with it as well (they knew Blake had been mind-raped once, but it's clear they'd all believed him recovered and developed a great deal of faith in that mind, placing themselves and their lives in his hands. Finding out how fragile Blake's control of his own mind still is must have been a hell of a shock. (... and IMO led straight to Avon's break-out in Gambit, in a binge-of-bad-behaviour reaction to worrying over Blake, fighting to save Blake from himself, and coming to terms with the implications afterwards.) And they still have plenty of Orac's de-programming to get through (and given the way the first session went, the rest are going to be horrendous). Actually, Pat Fenech did a very good fanfic look at this in her story 'Remember Me'. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 07:45:52 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Five minutes after _Voice from the Past_... Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Pred wrote: Oh my poor, poor, *poor* Not-Nearly-So-Fearless Leader ... yep, that's angst all right I love you, Pred. A million thanks for making my day. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:49:56 EST From: "Jessica Taylor" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Carol wrote: >On the same topic--liking shipmates--it was interesting to hear Gareth say >(on THE ACTOR SPEAKS CD) that Blake didn't like any of his shipmates. He >cared about them in the way you'd care about anyone you came in contact >with, but there was no deep caring. He primarily viewed them as tools to >use for the job he was trying to accomplish. While I don't accept what an >actor might say as canon, his view of Blake doesn't contradict anything in >canon. It's a valid, possible interpretation of what we see on the screen.> Sally responded: >Oh, I'd say that his moments of total heart-over-head come under *my* >heading of canonical evidence against it (one person's canon, of course, is >another's 'which tape were *you* watching? ) ... I'm not sure about that, all the examples are where Blake has had to put himself and/or the others at risk to save their missing or threatened comrade. I'm not sure he ever or would ever have put their needs above those of his cause and it could probably be argued that his main motive was to keep his only supporters and the rebellion alive. I always got the impression that he considered all of them, himself included as tools toward a greater good. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 09:33:45 +0200 From: Steve Kilbane To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) Message-Id: <200008270833.JAA01003@whitecrow.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii While I'm at it, one option for Travis (apart from the obvious Stephen Greif, who *obviously* has a picture in his attic) is Leslie Grantham. Evil looking geezer if ever there was one. Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake? steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:48:22 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jessica wrote: Exactly my point. The argument was that he neither liked nor much cared about them as people. Yes, they are the human tools he's been given to use, but that's the exact situation oof *any* commander/leader in any group. It doesn't mean he can't care about them *as people* as well. My argument, based on the examples, is that a leader who is quite prepared to die or suffer for any of them - or who can lose all claim to common sense when one dies (Trial) or is threatened (Countdown) - can reasonably be said to care a lot (he also tends to explode when *any* of them are endangered - another sign that they are personally important to him). Errr ... sorry and all that, exactly how would getting killed on Albian along with Avon have accomplished that? How would it have helped the cause? Or stranding himself (*without* thinking to check surface conditions, possible danger etc or leaving himself an escape route) on Zil's planet? Blake is not stupid. If he dies, the Liberator will probably cease to be as effective a force for the cause (in fact, the desultory and muffled muddle-and-go-nowhere of early 3rd season shows that, without his guiding hand, it does precisely that. It's really only Servalan's determined pursuit that keeps them fighting *at all*.) So repeatedly risking his own life, especially when he knows the others would not blame him if he didn't (as in SLD) is actually *harmful* to the cause. I've said it before, Blake's a driven man, and I do think his cause is *as* important to him as his people (he will not give up the Liberator to the federation - that would be a crime against humanity). But again, if the cause overrode the people, he *would* have tried harder to keep Avon in Breakdown - he knows he has the influence, he knows he has the manipulative skills, and he knows Avon is valuable. But Avon's free (or as free as Blake can make it) choice comes first - "if he stays, it's got to be for his own reasons", not Blake's. I think Blake was stating the absolute truth when he gave Cally the reason he went back for her on Centero. "Too many of my *friends* are already dead, Cally. I can't afford to lose another one." ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 04:22:37 -0400 From: "Doraleen McArthur" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) Message-ID: <00b701c01004$9f979940$7df35a0c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alison Page > I have been racking my brains for good casting against appearance for Blake. > Denzel Washington is a possibility, he's 'good' without being soppy, but I > think he is too introverted. My current choice is Tim Robbins. He's a > 'goodie', and he's into human rights and anti-censorship and so-on, and he's > extroverted like Blake, and also a bit odd and twisted. However I'm > wondering if that might be against the rules, because his other notable > characteristic is that he's a great big bloke, like Gareth. Oh, I like that. And I wouldn't think of them as similar size-wise (though I suppose they are, or were, anyway). Next time I watch _Shawshank_ I'll have to think about that... --Katie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 04:27:41 -0400 From: "Doraleen McArthur" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Tis Different All Right (Was: Why Not Blake II?) Message-ID: <00b801c01004$a142d840$7df35a0c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sally Manton > [a] the period inbetween when Our Heroes boarded the Liberator and when they > got the food and hot water computers to work; > [b] Vila's first driv- errr, flying lesson; > [c] Vila's introduction to the treasure room; Hee! > [j] the twenty-four hours after Voice. God, I wanted to see the twenty-four > hours after Voice; Oh, yes. And you know you'd've gotten it if they were making it now. Frustrating not to ever see any real fallout (or any at all that I noticed) from that. > [l] whatever it was Our Heroes did to get Servie from "forget Blake" > (Aftermath) to using him as bait in Volcano and all the way up to "you'd > never let Blake die" (this must've been a doozie); D'you think it was something the Liberator folks did, or something *Blake* did? --Katie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 01:13:36 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: [Fwd: [B7L] Re: blakes7 II?] Message-ID: <39A8CDB0.59FA6CD@ptinet.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------476962ABB067CFDA7A66A125" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------476962ABB067CFDA7A66A125 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forwarded from Katie :) M --------------476962ABB067CFDA7A66A125 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by mail.nw.centurytel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13077 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 08:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([12.90.244.105]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with SMTP id <20000826153555.SOFC17157.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@oemcomputer> for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 15:35:55 +0000 Message-ID: <000301c00f73$bedec4e0$69f45a0c@oemcomputer> From: "Doraleen McArthur" To: References: <39A70FD4.FA1AA167@ptinet.net> Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7 II? Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 01:13:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: > (Mind you, if Avon is as actor-proof as Iain says then I want Keanu.) You know, the scary thing about that suggestion is that Keanu really *does* have the deadpan thing down. Except I'm not sure he could sell me on 'brilliant'. (Or on 'reasonably average', to be honest. Which is perhaps unfair, but hey.) --Katie --------------476962ABB067CFDA7A66A125-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:59:33 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-ID: <21.362d8f.26da6ab5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > If you'll note in the passage you've quoted, I've put 'best' in quotes, > and the parenthetical (as he sees it). I was trying to distance myself > from the opinion; it's (IMO) *Blake's* view, not mine. So Blake didn't think Avon was at his best? That was the part that was very confusing. At one point you said Blake accepted Avon for what he was, then below that you said he was trying to persuade Avon to be his best. Those statements appear to contradict each other. Let me pull up the quotes from your earlier post. > Actually, you can boil that down to three things: (1) intelligent and/or > mentally stimulating; (2) trustworthy; (3) likes Avon just the way he > is. Blake has pretty much everything enumerated in the previous > paragraph, > All this while Blake keeps prodding Avon, trying to bring Avon around > to the cause, to be his 'best' self (as Blake sees it); That seems to suggest that Blake doesn't like Avon just the way he is. > But Blake *is* having an emotional effect > on Avon, and thanks to the constant stress of their lives, Avon's > capacity for dealing with Blake's feelings, and Blake's illogical > cause, is stretched very thin. He's exhausted (and so is Blake, > but they're exhausted by different things); he needs some > distance rather desperately. Of course, he realizes later that he > didn't want it to be permanent. Great big bleeding hearts - > can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. If your Avon is emotionally moved by Blake, Blake's persuasion, Blake's cause, and if he misses that "great big bleeding heart," then your Avon is far more "wonderful, good, noble" than my Avon. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 09:12:36 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: > Exactly my point. The argument was that he neither liked nor much cared > about them as people. I listened to the Gareth discussing Blake part of the CD again before my friend who owns it left. I don't remember everything word for word, but he never said he didn't like them as people. He said he cared about them as people, but they weren't his friends. He cared about them in the way you'd care about someone you worked with, communicated with, etc. You wouldn't want them to be hurt, you'd be upset if they died, especially if it was your business that put them in the dangerous situation. He likened Blake's feelings about Gan's loss to his own deep upset when John Gielgud died. Gielgud wasn't his friend but his loss was deeply felt. I can't say my primary canon agrees with Gareth, but I do find his viewpoint interesting. It's a fascinating intellectual exercise to view the series from that perspective: that Blake wasn't friends with his crew. > Yes, they are the human tools he's been given to use, > but that's the exact situation oof *any* commander/leader in any group. It > doesn't mean he can't care about them *as people* as well. My argument, > based on the examples, is that a leader who is quite prepared to die or > suffer for any of them - or who can lose all claim to common sense when one > dies (Trial) or is threatened (Countdown) - can reasonably be said to care a > lot (he also tends to explode when *any* of them are endangered - another > sign that they are personally important to him). It's interesting that you use that as an argument for friendship. Avon certainly was prepared to die for his crew and lost common sense when they were threatened. > Errr ... sorry and all that, exactly how would getting killed on Albian > along with Avon have accomplished that? Was that a sign of friendship or was that a sign that Blake wasn't entirely rational and practical? Another thing Gareth mentioned was that Blake became a fanatic. A fanatic might be inclined to perform irrational actions, such as staying on Albian despite the danger, and it wouldn't have anything to do with friendship. > But again, if the > cause overrode the people, he *would* have tried harder to keep Avon in > Breakdown - he knows he has the influence, he knows he has the manipulative > skills, and he knows Avon is valuable. But Avon's free (or as free as Blake > can make it) choice comes first - "if he stays, it's got to be for his own > reasons", not Blake's. Continuing to play devil's advocate... Recognizing that an unwilling tool is ineffective isn't the same as saying Avon was his friend. Another thing Gareth said was that he didn't think Blake would covertly recruit. The Liberator crew were people who fell into his lap and had nothing to lose. If Avon decided he did have something to lose, Gareth's Blake would let him go. Another interesting point Gareth made was that Blake wasn't terribly bothered by Avon's nattering, because he knew Avon was never a threat to his leadership. My fan friends and I discussed Gareth's comments a bit over lunch and came up with some speculations. One was that the brainwipe had altered Blake's emotions to where he wasn't able to access the emotions required to form friendships. Another possibility we considered was that Blake was consciously or subconsciously determined not to form friendships with his crew. As a commander, it's helpful and desirable to keep a degree of distance. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:36:10 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-ID: <007801c01037$d27061c0$5d684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Mc/Mistral dialogue: > > > Where I've tried to draw the line between Blake and Vila vs. the > rest of the crew is in the matter of accepting Avon's temperament. > Vila never, ever, ever tries to change Avon. I think one reason I don't like Blake is Blake's failure to understand the absolute futility of trying to change Avon. > > What do people want to see changed about Avon? I infer that they > want him to be kinder (as in more overtly pleasant), more open, more > group-oriented and democratic. "On Earth, it is considered ill-mannered to kill 100% of the people you love en route to getting killed yourself" >I hope > very much that Dana Shilling won't mind me saying this, Mind? Thank you so much for the lovely tribute--cheered me right up. but I've had > the privilege of reading her story 'Not Our Kind, Darling', in which she > portrays an Avon who is darker, edgier, more self-destructive than the > fellow I know - not my Avon at all; but I *recognize* Dana's Avon, I > like Dana's Avon, I care about what happens to him - because I > recognize the *potential* for Dana's version of Avon in the fellow I > know. The road not taken. I think that something--be it biochemical (profound depression) or theological (despair)--went very wrong very early on for Avon. I have a WIP that is nominally about Blake's eighth birthday party but (me being me) is basically about Avon's family--whom I mostly like. But they can already tell that Kerr is not your ordinary little boy. > > > Without the potential for dark in Avon, the events of Blake are > not possible. Without the potential for light, they are not a tragedy. Without Blake's ability to devise a scheme hare-brained well-nigh beyond the bounds of fiction, they are not an episode. >but I can't ignore the fact that my brain and instincts both > tell me that Avon wouldn't care for someone who didn't have > the *capacity* at least to return his friendship; This is a well-argued point of view and I respect it, but (and bearing in mind which list this is) I rather think that Avon would look for yet further evidence of a cruel and uncaring Universe PRECISELY by choosing to care for someone whom he believed was incapable of reciprocation. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:02:13 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: [B7L] Foreshadowing Message-ID: <007b01c01037$df4d3a80$5d684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe what Orbit is doing in the series is as a kind of Blake prequel--i.e., Blake shoves the series into the category of Tragedy by ending with Death for Love, whereas Orbit makes the tragedy more poignant by hinting at a Comedy resolution (Tragedy averted) through a near- killing in the pair who are the closest to LIKING each other? I'd say that part of the achievement of B7 is its bracing willingness to highlight a cast of characters who don't really like each other at the beginning and still don't at the end--OK, maybe Jenna and Cally get over their initial hostility (or maybe not), and Dayna and Soolin may get along OK (or maybe just tolerate each other), but the Dislike Hall of Fame really could include such touching match-ups as Avon-Gan and Tarrant-Vila. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:18:39 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) Message-ID: <20000827201839.A2092@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Steve Kilbane wrote: > Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake? An interesting question, worth pondering. Actually, I think he'd make a better Avon. He can do Intellectual, he can do a reasonable Mad-Bad-and-Dangerous-to-Know (if you look at his performance in VR.5 as Oliver Sampson, black leather jacket and all) and he suffers prettily too. Hmmmm. I'm not sure he has the *driven-ness* needed for a Blake, though. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Vila: You could have got us killed! Why didn't you tell me? Avon: Well, I didn't want to make you nervous, Vila. I was nervous enough for the both of us. (Blake's 7: Orbit [D11]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat \_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:11:22 +-100 From: Louise Rutter To: 'B7 Lysator' Subject: RE: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) Message-ID: <01C01049.D80C0FA0@host62-7-108-200.btinternet.com> Steve then Kathryn: >> Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake? >An interesting question, worth pondering. Actually, I think he'd make >a better Avon. He can do Intellectual, he can do a reasonable >Mad-Bad-and-Dangerous-to-Know (if you look at his performance in VR.5 >as Oliver Sampson, black leather jacket and all) and he suffers >prettily too. >I'm not sure he has the *driven-ness* needed for a Blake, though. Hmmm. I'd prefer to see him do Blake rather than Avon. He can do driven obsessive brilliantly, has done so as both Giles and Oliver in different ways. In fact, he's another of those actors who seems able to turn a hand to just about anything.... Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:09:28 GMT From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7 II? (flatmates) Message-Id: <200008271709.SAA03600@smtp.uk2net.com> > Mistral > (Thinking about Avon interviewing potential flatmates. Ouch.) 'Shallow Grave', anyone? Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net NEWS - CHEAPEST DEDICATED SERVERS IN THE WORLD - 29/month UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:39:21 GMT From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing cards) Message-Id: <200008271739.SAA03874@smtp.uk2net.com> Dana Shilling/Mistral > > > > Mind you, cutting straight to the bridge > > Flight deck! Flight deck! > > I thought most people use a Bicycle deck to play bridge? > > Ob B7: If Gan were a playing card, which one would he be? > I've been half-heartedly trying to design (in my head, I can't design for shit) a B7 Tarot deck for ages, but can never decide who would be who - I'm kind of drawn to King of Wands for Blake, but then maybe I should save him for one of the Major Arcana; Avon usually ends up as the Magician, but then I had a really crap ex who thought he was the Magician, so that puts me off. Gan could be Strength, maybe? (but that might just be because the guy in the picture on that card in my pack looks a bit like Gan). Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net NEWS - CHEAPEST DEDICATED SERVERS IN THE WORLD - 29/month UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 2000 20:14:38 +0200 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing cards) Message-ID: <86og2etvu9.fsf@tezcatlipoca.algonet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>> "Ika" == Ika writes: > I've been half-heartedly trying to design (in my head, I can't > design for shit) a B7 Tarot deck for ages That could be fun. > but can never decide who would be who - I'm kind of drawn to King of > Wands for Blake, but then maybe I should save him for one of the > Major Arcana; Of course, all regular character should be major arcana cards. > Avon usually ends up as the Magician, but then I had a really crap > ex who thought he was the Magician, so that puts me off. No, Avon is The Hermit. > Gan could be Strength, maybe? That, or Justice. Off the top of my head: Blake The Magician Avon The Hermit Jenna Temperance Vila The Devil Cally The High Priestess Gan Justice Dayna The Tower Tarrant Strength Soolin The Chariot Servalan The Wheel of Fortune Travis Death -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "Surely the 98% of DNA we share with monkeys must be enough to stop people from sinking this low. " -- Frossie, A.S.R ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 19:17:54 GMT From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-Id: <200008271817.TAA04153@smtp.uk2net.com> > >Carol wrote: > >On the same topic--liking shipmates--it was interesting to hear Gareth say > >(on THE ACTOR SPEAKS CD) that Blake didn't like any of his shipmates. He > >cared about them in the way you'd care about anyone you came in contact > >with, but there was no deep caring. He primarily viewed them as tools to > >use for the job he was trying to accomplish. While I don't accept what an > >actor might say as canon, his view of Blake doesn't contradict anything in > >canon. It's a valid, possible interpretation of what we see on the screen.> > > Sally responded: > >Oh, I'd say that his moments of total heart-over-head come under *my* > >heading of canonical evidence against it (one person's canon, of course, is > >another's 'which tape were *you* watching? ) ... > > Jessica: > I'm not sure about that, all the examples are where Blake has had to put > himself and/or the others at risk to save their missing or threatened > comrade. I'm not sure he ever or would ever have put their needs above those > of his cause and it could probably be argued that his main motive was to > keep his only supporters and the rebellion alive. I always got the > impression that he considered all of them, himself included as tools toward > a greater good. > Hmmm. Me & housemate co-snippetted once (lost, or I would post) where Avon was trying to convince Blake to get some more people on the crew, since if they *had* to fight the Federation they might as well have some cannon fodder around to even the odds up a bit, and Blake was fairly sickened at the idea of asking people to risk their lives in a soldier-type cannon-fodder way, insisting that he should know and care about the people who fought with him, otherwise he was no better than the Federation, blah, blah... But I think this strong, close connection to the crew is something he loses on GP (no evidence at all here), and that might be why I like to see it in action in the early series - otherwise Scarred Blake is less hardened & tragic in relation to Liberator Blake, and then I feel less sad. So I can't see Blake treating the others (or himself) *only* as tools. Except maybe Vila, but I'm not getting into *that* fight again, so I'll just say IMHO. Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net NEWS - CHEAPEST DEDICATED SERVERS IN THE WORLD - 29/month UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 19:19:57 GMT From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) Message-Id: <200008271819.TAA04181@smtp.uk2net.com> Steve Kilbane: > While I'm at it, one option for Travis (apart from the obvious > Stephen Greif, who *obviously* has a picture in his attic) don't you mean a monster in his cellar? > is > Leslie Grantham. Evil looking geezer if ever there was one. > > Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake? Ooh, I'd like *that*. I'm currently desperately trying to think of some way to get Jonathan Rhys Meyer (fnarr, fnarr) into the remake - but I don't think Avon is *that* actor- proof... Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net NEWS - CHEAPEST DEDICATED SERVERS IN THE WORLD - 29/month UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 19:37:18 GMT From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing cards) Message-Id: <200008271837.TAA04279@smtp.uk2net.com> Me and Calle: > > > I've been half-heartedly trying to design (in my head, I can't > > design for shit) a B7 Tarot deck for ages > > That could be fun. > > > but can never decide who would be who - I'm kind of drawn to King of > > Wands for Blake, but then maybe I should save him for one of the > > Major Arcana; > > Of course, all regular character should be major arcana cards. I know, but Blake is *so* the King of Wands that I keep wanting to make an exception for him.. > > > Avon usually ends up as the Magician, but then I had a really crap > > ex who thought he was the Magician, so that puts me off. > > No, Avon is The Hermit. Good. I don't want him to be the Magician. That works much better. (What about Avon as the Hierophant, though? Then Servalan can be High Priestess.) > > > Gan could be Strength, maybe? > > That, or Justice. Justice works pretty well. > > Off the top of my head: > > Blake The Magician Not *quite* sure about that, but it would fit with a thread on the Other List about Blake's ability to damn well *make* the universe do what he wants by refusing to accept it when plans go wrong... > Avon The Hermit > Jenna Temperance I might put Cally in as Temperance, actually, but that's for idiosyncratic reasons (I got Temperance in every single Tarot reading I did for about a year once and realized it represented a girl I knew who reminds me of Cally) > Vila The Devil Ooh, interesting. Why? (I would have had him as the Fool, probably) > Cally The High Priestess Oh, of course - Okay, Servalan can't have it then. > Gan Justice > Dayna The Tower That's an interesting one - do you mean because of the destruction of her life on Sarran? > Tarrant Strength I'd probably have Tarrant as the Devil, but that's because he's ex-Federation (sold his soul) > Soolin The Chariot > > Servalan The Wheel of Fortune Oooh yes. And listen to the second movement of Carmina Burana for the Wheel of Fortune lyrics, which unfortunately I don't remember very well ("the king sits in a high place; let him beware his ruin, for beneath the open sky we have summoned Queen Hecuba") > Travis Death > And rebirth? This is convincing stuff... Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net NEWS - CHEAPEST DEDICATED SERVERS IN THE WORLD - 29/month UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 19:41:29 GMT From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? Message-Id: <200008271841.TAA04300@smtp.uk2net.com> > And I'd like to reiterate that I'm only trying to explain my > perceptions, to discuss, not to argue. I enjoyed thinking about > these questions. Thank you. > > Mistral And I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's been posting on this thread - unfortunatly you've all come up with such damn complex, interesting & moving insights that I am completely incapable of responding. Duh. Like Avon. Like Blake. Nice Avon. Nice Blake. Want cookie. Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net NEWS - CHEAPEST DEDICATED SERVERS IN THE WORLD - 29/month UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #241 **************************************