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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 183
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Flag waving.
[B7L] Sports, PD, Blake
[B7L] Re: Flag waving
[B7L] wobbly sets
[B7L] Re: Caliph of Krandor.
[B7L] Addedum to Flag waving.
Re: [B7L] Re: Flag waving
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:14:32 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Flag waving.
Message-ID: <8d6f1868.359d49b9@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-07-03 16:21:34 EDT, you write:
<< patriotism and spirituality
seemed a bit shallow, considering many of the problems that we have in
the States ( no universal single payer health care, bad support of
teachers, lack of funding for the arts) >>
Can't resist. yes, indeed, our patriotism is shallow in this day and age,
where taking a political stand doesn't involve the threat of property,
postition, and life itself as it did when the Founding Fathers decided the
most drastic of actions was nessacary to gain their political ends. but the
patriotism celebrated by the holiday should not be defined in terms of your
feelings on individual political issues. Instead, I look to the 4th as a time
to reflect on the great ideals spelled out in the Constitution and Declaration
of Independance, the triumph of those ideals over the passage of time, and
yes, the awareness that even today we have yet to reach the full potential of
those ideals. Yes, the United States has many problems. Waiting 6 months to a
year for a bypass operation isn't one of them. instead of reasoned debate,
oftentimes political opponants settle for vilifying the opposition and rousing
the basest emotions of their constituants to bring about their ends. yes, in
many ways we have acted as hypocrits through the years.
but every country has its flaws. Every political system in theory is an
ideal one; in reality each is rigged with flaws which render it a potential
monster. But the American Dream has inspired people around the world. Every
year people immigrate here to carve out their own version of that dream. And
it is a worthy dream. Our Founding Fathers strived for a system that elevated
Man. they may not have succeeded, but nor did they fail, so long as their
ideals still inspire others to rise.
Let us rejoice in our differences, and our similarities, and for this one
day, revel in the pride of a nation that is a unique amalgamation of the
world's population.Please?
Deborah Rose
with apologies for losing the B7 thread of this posting.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 98 03:12:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Sports, PD, Blake
Message-Id: <199807040341.DAA21119@rock103.genie.net>
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I love the suggestion of drag racing for Tarrant.
I once read a fan story that I really liked, set in a kind of 1950s
alternate universe. It was about an aging hoodlum and his alcoholic
sidekick, and the three juvenile delinquents they hung out with. Avon spent
his time souping up their car, Scorpio, which Tarrant would be driving in
the big drag race in the probably-vain hope of beating the prom queen,
Servalan.
It was a wonderful story, but unfortunately the author was too shy ever to
agree to publishing it. I think she has now gafiated, alas.
I also like the idea of Cally doing gymnastics, which would enhance her
potential for tantric sex! A lot of people seem to see Cally as asexual,
but I see her more as being very in control of her body, which suggests some
interesting possibilities.
My feeling about =Avon: A Terrible Aspect= is that there are two separate
problems with it:
1) It badly needed editing. Things like the astronomical gaffes could have
been cleaned up fairly easily, and it could have been turned into a
moderately readable pulp adventure. PD does have a pretty good sense of
pacing and dialogue-- more suited to scripts, really, than novels. The fact
that the book wasn't edited at all suggests a certain contempt for the
readership on the part of both the author and the publisher, which may be
one reason why fans in turn tend to be rather vocal in their contempt for
the book.
2) The portrayal of the title character is, as a number of people have
pointed out, not very compatible with what we saw on screen. That would
still be the case even if the book had been cleaned up and made more
readable. My theory about that is that when PD wrote the book, he was
extrapolating backwards from the Avon of the fourth season, his own favorite
season, and was pretty much ignoring all the evidence of the first three
seasons.
I also think that the reason for the difference between the early Avon and
the Avon of the fourth season is that by the time of the fourth season, PD
was a big enough star that he had more control over the direction of the
series and could steer the development of the character in the direction
that he would have preferred all along, namely toward being more of a macho
action hero. But that was so different from the earlier presentation of the
character that fans interpreted it to mean that the character was going mad,
or at the very least, that he was severely stressed out.
Such, at least, is my theory of the external, production-related reasons for
the change in Avon. But what we see on screen can also be explained
internally, in terms of the development of the character: Avon realizes
that in order to survive in an increasingly hostile universe, he's going to
have to become a macho man of action whether he wants to or not. Since he
has no real choice anyway, he makes the best of things and does it with
style, becoming a flamboyant space pirate. But at heart he's still a quiet,
nerdly computer geek, which is why he often seems a bit twitchy and strange
during the fourth season. IMO.
Edith, what was Blake fighting for? Good question. Many fan writers have
taken him to task for not, apparently, having any well-thought-out plan for
governing the galaxy after the fall of the Federation. Might not anarchy be
worse than tyranny, especially with so many worlds dependent on organized
technology for survival?
I have the impression that what Blake wanted was an end to the drugging and
the threat of the Federation military, so that the people on the various
worlds could decide for themselves what they wanted. But what the results
would have been if he'd gotten what he wanted is another question.
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:05:48 +1000
From: Taina Nieminen <taina@netspace.net.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Flag waving
Message-ID: <359D8DFC.BD7A8B65@netspace.net.au>
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> Over here in the United States of America, we will be doing our bit
> of patriotic flag waving tomorrow- a time of picnics, music, beer and
> fireworks being done by those who are fortunate enough to be off.
> I had put out a post stating that our(USA) patriotism and spirituality
> seemed a bit shallow, considering many of the problems that we have in
> the States ( no universal single payer health care, bad support of
> teachers, lack of funding for the arts)and that it seemed grimly
> reflected in B7's world.
My comments are obviously biased from having lived all my life in
Australia, where we have free/subsidised health care available to
everybody who needs it, a solid welfare system, a very minor homeless
problem compared to the US, a so-so education system (but without the
problems of children regularly taking guns to school), and even arts
funding.
So, the US is one possible system, and the Federation is another
possible system, but it's not a choice between those two. It is possible
to have a society in which people are economically secure, well-fed,
housed etc. (some people in Australia would argue with this, but in
comparison with other places in the world, we are really very well off)
but still have personal freedoms.
Of course, I'm also strongly influenced by Western cultural bias, which
emphasizes individual autonomy. Personal freedoms/"rights" very
important to me are my right to hold and express my own political
opinions, religious beliefs, choose my occupation and place of
residence, and to have friends and sexual partners of my choice.
> The question is, what was Blake fighting for,
> exactly? Everyone was drugged and dulled, but fed and perhaps reasonably
> taken care of.
Being drugged and dulled attacks what I would call a fundamental right
of people to be themselves. The right to think your own thoughts, feel
your own feelings is much more fundamental than any right to express
them. A drugged Federation resident would not even be able to decide
whether they'd rather be drugged and well-fed, or free and have to
struggle for existence. As for myself, I'd rather be free and not well
taken care off (but then, I've never been in a situation where I haven't
been well taken care off).
Once again, I can only say that there are other alternatives, and I
think Blake would have had one of these in mind - a free(er) society in
which people were still taken care of.
> Was he rebelling against absolutely control ( from
> strength comes unity) at the expense of security?
I think Blake was rebelling for a different kind of government. I
haven't seen any episodes since late 1993, so my memory is vague on some
of it. What indications are there as to what kind of government Blake
wanted to replace the Federation with?
Also, I get the mailing list in digest form, so I've written this
response without any idea as to what other responses people have made so
far.
> Did he expect others,
> in mass movement, would join him? Especially if they had bread and
> circuses?
Again, my memory is vague, but my impression is that he wasn't counting
on mass support, but was focusing on what he and his companions could do
to damage Federation control themselves, and make it possible for others
to also rebel. Another question - what exactly did he do after he left
the Liberator?
Taina Nieminen
(recently joined the list)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:37:54 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] wobbly sets
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.42-0704113754-bbaRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
I saw a set wobble in Babylon 5 this week when a character got thrown hard
against a low wall. Made me feel quite nostaligic to know that some things
never change.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 14:05:25 +0100 (BST)
From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Caliph of Krandor.
Message-Id: <199807041305.OAA12959@dux1.tcd.ie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To my fellow subscribers:
I have found out what type of badge is incorporated into the golden
sash (or belt) worn around the waist of the Caliph of Krandor in 'Dawn of
the Gods'. It is the badge of an old French order of knighthood, the Order
of the Holy Spirit. The order was founded by King Henry III of France in
1578 and was limited to 100 knights. It was surpressed during the French
Revolution, but was revived for a short time during the Restoration between
1816-30.
The badge is an eight-pointed (or Maltese) cross, with lilies
between the arms of the cross and a dove flying with the head downwards,
which symbolizes the Holy Spirit. The Caliph does not wear the badge
correctly, as the dove is flying with the head to the right.
This would make a good question for a B7 quiz. 'Name the old French
order of knighthood whose badge is part of the sash around the waist of the
Caliph of Krandor?' It also makes us ask the question as to why the badge
was used. I can come up with two answers:
(1) The costume people were scraping the botton of the barrel. (The most
plausible answer).
(2) The Caliph liked French history.
Murray Smith
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:59:57 PDT
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Addedum to Flag waving.
Message-ID: <19980704195957.25086.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
To all ( Especially the United states citizen members):
If you read an insult in my "flag waving" post, then I do
apologize. No offense was meant. As a daughter of Carribean immigrants
who went through a lot to become citizens of the USA, I am far too
intimately aware of the ideals and goals of this country. I know of the
very great sacrifices done by ALL ancestors to insure the ideals of
liberty, justice and pursuit of happiness for its citizens. However,
being a creole descendent also brings a certain appreciation for the
masks that goverments and people often wear, and being able to call them
on it.
I look at the 4 of July as a holiday that commemorates the
Republic's founding and against a lot of odds, success. But, for me, it
is also a reminder that there are a lot of things that are very wrong,
and there is a renewed obligation on my part as a citizen to help my
fellow citizen where I can.
There is a lot that i admire about my country, and a lot that I find
to be bad. Such is the history of many countries and cultures, I think.
Edith Spencer
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 09:58:16 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Flag waving
Message-ID: <19980705095816.29156@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 12:05:48PM +1000, Taina Nieminen wrote:
> > Over here in the United States of America, we will be doing our bit
> > of patriotic flag waving tomorrow- a time of picnics, music, beer and
> > fireworks being done by those who are fortunate enough to be off.
> > I had put out a post stating that our(USA) patriotism and spirituality
> > seemed a bit shallow, considering many of the problems that we have in
> > the States ( no universal single payer health care, bad support of
> > teachers, lack of funding for the arts)and that it seemed grimly
> > reflected in B7's world.
>
> My comments are obviously biased from having lived all my life in
> Australia, where we have free/subsidised health care available to
> everybody who needs it, a solid welfare system, a very minor homeless
> problem compared to the US, a so-so education system (but without the
> problems of children regularly taking guns to school), and even arts
> funding.
Actually, believe it or not, our education system is very good. Not
as good as it *was*, but from my personal experience of both the US
system and the Australian system, the Australian one is better. Of
course that's only a sample-size of one. But certainly our
universities are world-class, otherwise why would be be getting all
those (paying) foriegn students?
> So, the US is one possible system, and the Federation is another
> possible system, but it's not a choice between those two. It is possible
> to have a society in which people are economically secure, well-fed,
> housed etc. (some people in Australia would argue with this, but in
> comparison with other places in the world, we are really very well off)
> but still have personal freedoms.
Here here! And when you mutter to yourself, "I wish someone would
bloody shut miz bloody Pauline-bigot-Hanson up," remember that that is
the price of freedom. Even the hate-mongering Pauline Hansons are
allowed a voice. (As they would be in America also)
An interesting thought: how would Blake cope, in his new, free,
Federation, with his own versions of Pauline Hanson; the people,
speaking freely, who don't believe in the same ideals as him, even
though, to him, these ideals are self-evident?
> Of course, I'm also strongly influenced by Western cultural bias, which
> emphasizes individual autonomy. Personal freedoms/"rights" very
> important to me are my right to hold and express my own political
> opinions, religious beliefs, choose my occupation and place of
> residence, and to have friends and sexual partners of my choice.
One of the things I appreciate about the Australian system is that
compulsory voting prevents the issues being hijacked by extremists.
Oh, we've got the extremists here, but they aren't represented
disproportionately. People just vote the way they usually vote, but
at least that makes for more stability of government.
> > The question is, what was Blake fighting for,
> > exactly? Everyone was drugged and dulled, but fed and perhaps reasonably
> > taken care of.
>
> Being drugged and dulled attacks what I would call a fundamental right
> of people to be themselves. The right to think your own thoughts, feel
> your own feelings is much more fundamental than any right to express
> them. A drugged Federation resident would not even be able to decide
> whether they'd rather be drugged and well-fed, or free and have to
> struggle for existence. As for myself, I'd rather be free and not well
> taken care off (but then, I've never been in a situation where I haven't
> been well taken care off).
Gan: Is there a defense against IMIPAK?
Avon: Of course there is. It's called slavery.
(Blake's 7: Weapon [B3])
> Once again, I can only say that there are other alternatives, and I
> think Blake would have had one of these in mind - a free(er) society in
> which people were still taken care of.
The American push is that Democracy is the best possible form of
government. I don't think so, but it is sure a better alternative to
tyranical dictatorships. But I figure monarchy has a lot going for it
too -- so long as you've got a good monarch. (-8
The first purpose of government is to uphold the weak, to defend the
weak against the strong. But any government (or law) whatsoever can
be corrupted to side with the strong against the weak.
The advantage of Democracy is that it prevents government from doing
a lot. This of course is also the disadvantage. The advantage of
a benevolent autocrat is that s/he can get a whole lot done to bring
the country into good shape; the problems arise when the autocrat is
either wicked or unwise - then the things s/he does are not of benefit
to the country.
As someone on this list proposed, ages ago, Avon might have said this:
"Sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on one side."
(a quote that never happened, from the Blake's 7 mailing list)
So I suppose the best democracies are those which manage to cut down
the fool factor. In a democracy, it is to the benefit of the country
as a whole to make sure all its citizens are well-educated, morally as
well as intellectually.
(geeze, what a ramble!)
> > Was he rebelling against absolutely control ( from
> > strength comes unity) at the expense of security?
>
> I think Blake was rebelling for a different kind of government. I
> haven't seen any episodes since late 1993, so my memory is vague on some
> of it. What indications are there as to what kind of government Blake
> wanted to replace the Federation with?
I don't think Blake thought that far ahead; he just wanted to destroy
the Federation, and he didn't think beyond that. I suspect that was
one reason Avon was so scornful of his plans.
"I never doubted that. I never doubted your fanaticism.
As far as I am concerned, you can destroy whatever you like;
you can stir up a thousand revolutions; you can wade in blood
up to your armpits. Oh, and you can lead the rabble to victory -
whatever that means. Just so long as there is an end to it."
-- Kerr Avon, to Roj Blake (Blake's 7: Star One [B13])
> > Did he expect others,
> > in mass movement, would join him? Especially if they had bread and
> > circuses?
>
> Again, my memory is vague, but my impression is that he wasn't counting
> on mass support, but was focusing on what he and his companions could do
> to damage Federation control themselves, and make it possible for others
> to also rebel.
That seems to be one of the Freedom Party's aims at the start: to
cause enough disruption on Earth to enable some of the Outer Worlds to
break away from the Federation.
> Another question - what exactly did he do after he left
> the Liberator?
That is open to pure speculation. All we have is that things happened
to Blake (not on Earth) which destroyed his trust and made him more
cynical. (If the Blake we see in "Blake" is the real Blake, that is.)
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tarrant: What would Servalan want with a penal colony?
Avon: Who knows? Perhaps she wants to compare notes with some other
genocidal maniacs - or take a refresher course in basic brutality.
(Blake's 7: Moloch [C11])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #183
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