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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 188
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Happy endings
[B7L] Jackie Pierce/Dr. Who
[B7L] Erm, run that past me again?
Re: [B7L] Erm, run that past me again?
[B7L] Dead or Alive; nee Happy endings
[B7L] happy endings comments
Re: [B7L] Dead or Alive; nee Happy endings
Re: [B7L] Re: Drugging to Control Behaviour
RE: [B7L] Re US health care (was flag waving)
Re: [B7L] Drugging to Control Behaviour
[B7L] happy endings
Re: [B7L] Happy endings
Re: [B7L] Blake (was Flag waving)
Re: [B7L] Happy endings
[B7L] Re Happy endings
Re: [B7L] Dead or Alive; nee Happy endings
[B7L] Lost in space friday
Re: [B7L] Re Happy endings
Re: [B7L] Happy endings
[B7L] Shopping for Blakes Seven Videos
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:28:59 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Happy endings
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980708140132.32176B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 AChevron@aol.com wrote:
> This thread has me wondering. How many people think that our heroes
> "really" died on GP, even if that's not the ending you would have wanted? How
> many believe they all lived? That might determine if the "happy ending" folks
> are really in the minority. D. Rose
>
They all died. Every last one of them. So there.
It's pleasingly neat that way. Since we're told of Jenna's offstage death,
it means all our heros are accounted for. It also makes the fullest use of
those lines and ideas that resonate throughout the episode: "Sooner or
later", "It's only a matter of time". The ending just carries so much more
dramtic weight if they all really die. Furthermore, it's a fitting end to
a fundamentally bleak and pessimistic series, pulling the rug from under
the standard heroic tale of a small band of good guys triumphing over the
vastly more powerful evil empire just as season 2 systematically cut away
at the archetypal heroic pure-hearted leader. Lastly, it's a powerful and
distinctive ending to an adventure series.
Your idea of using people's thought on what "really" happened on GP as an
indicator of their attitude to happy endings is a good one. I've always
thought that the various conspiracy theories were basically an attempt to
deny the desperately sad ending, just as Nahum Tate rewrote the
heartbreakingly cruel last scene of "King Lear", as audiences were
unwilling to deal with Shakespeare's original ending.
As with "King Lear", what makes the end of "Blake" shocking is not that
people die, but that the standard dramatic structures with make the hero's
death meaningful are removed. There "should" have been a final showdown
with Servalan, where our heroes might die but they take the evil empress
with them, destroying the Federation, and their names live on in the new
age of peace and plenty. The real ending gains its power from the fact
that this comfortable resolution is denied.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:05:54 EDT
From: penny_kjelgaard@juno.com (Penny L Kjelgaard)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Jackie Pierce/Dr. Who
Message-ID: <19980708.200128.2367.0.Penny_Kjelgaard@juno.com>
YUP, that was her in "The Two Doctors."
See you Saturday if I have no kitten emergencies like I have over the
last 4 days.
Peace,
Penny
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
Confucious say: When person say
'love' better make sure word touch
wisdom tooth on way out of mouth
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 20:18:01 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Erm, run that past me again?
Message-ID: <19980709031802.3609.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
I think I am eminently qualified to answer this one. I have a cat named
Servalan and a cat named Boojum. They bear absolutely no resemblance to
each other and don't even like each other much, so I would have to say
that the answer is no, Servalan would *not* make a good Boojum, or vice
versa.
- Lisa
Nice one, Lisa, but I'm not sure it applies to your cats, interestingly
named as they are. After some consideration, I thought of a test to
apply to your cats. Have you suddenly vanished after contact with either
of your cats? Has anyone else? No? More to the point, what does *a*
Boojum, as opposed to *the* Boojum (meaning your cat) look like? It is
only because those who knew what Servalan as Sleer looked like tended to
disappear very suddenly that I thought of her at all.
Sending my brain back into hibernation for the winter
Jo MacQueen
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:51:35 -0500
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Erm, run that past me again?
Message-Id: <199807090445.XAA29589@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Joanne MacQueen wrote:
>Have you suddenly vanished after contact with either of your cats? Has
>anyone else?
No people (that I know of), but quite a few assorted small objects and a
fair number of crickets have vanished away after coming into contact with
Boojum. (He's only a *small* Boojum, after all; can't be expected to vanish
large things like people.) Not so with Servalan, who seldom bestirs
herself; she commands the universe from the pillows of my bed. She is,
however, credited with the destruction of my Liberator model in her younger
years; she knocked it off a shelf, then ran around the house with it in her
mouth, growling fiercely (presumably the feline equivalent of "Maximum
power!"). I recovered it in pieces.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@ti.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:23:35 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Dead or Alive; nee Happy endings
Message-ID: <bbd7c831.35a453d8@aol.com>
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There've been over a dozen responses that I've tracked on this topic(GP;
Dead or Alive), and so far I track at least 5 'all deads', with 5 that having
some or all the crew surviving.(2 posts never answered the question, dealing
with other aspects of the topic). For my own vote, I say at least some
survive, but not all. This to set up another round of suffering and anguish
for the survivors, with the barest gleam of hope that they still have a
chance.
I'm not sure of the nationalities of all the respondants, but it seems to
me that there is a bit more pessimism on the other side of the lake. Are
Americans more optimistic? Is there something in the British character that is
inately pessimistic? I realize that the sampling is very small, but I'd add
that an English non-fan familiar with the show(he enjoyed it but never was
caught up in it) was actually suprised that I'd consider that anyone survived
the finale. Just another angle to this thread. D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:16:01 +1000
From: "McDougalls" <margjohn@pip.com.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] happy endings comments
Message-Id: <199807090527.PAA06707@pip2.pip.com.au>
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Hi to everyone, I'm Margaret, I have been reading contributions to the list
for the past few weeks and have really enjoyed the different threads. There
is presently a thread which has now overcome my shynes. In explanation,-
most of this is quite new to me...fandom, zines, e-mail, but not B7....I
enjoyed it first time around and am glad I am getting re-aquainted with the
characters.
About happy endings and who survived Gauda Prime. When I read the comments
regarding this, I remembered what I actually thought when I saw 'Blake'
about 15 years ago. Even back then, when young (oh sure!), I always had a
soft spot for Avon, though I wasn't entirely convinced that the others
could quite trust him. So when I saw him shoot Blake and raise his gun
again with a smile, my first thought was that HE was the betrayer, that he
always had had divided loyalties between Servilan and the rebels. But in
the end, Servilan won out. It was not a pleasant thought I remember, and
decided a little later that I was probably mistaken....but the memory
lingered.
So, I believed they all died except Avon, and I just was not sure what he
would be doing next...
To Gwynn,
I enjoyed Forever Knight and there is no doubt in my mind that they were
both dead at the end....such a pity......he should have made her a vampire
also......the start of a beautiful personal and professional relationship!
Margaret.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:05:39 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Dead or Alive; nee Happy endings
Message-Id: <E0yuAn2-0004dE-00@post.mail.demon.net>
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D.Rose
> I'm not sure of the nationalities of all the respondants, but it seems
to
> me that there is a bit more pessimism on the other side of the lake. Are
> Americans more optimistic? Is there something in the British character
that is
> inately pessimistic?
Interestingly when people are discussing literary SF they do tend to divide
'European' SF (which incidentally includes Australia) from 'American' SF.
The cliche is that the former is pessimistic and the latter optimistic. And
I guess it would be quite easy to relate this difference to the economic
and historical positions of the two parts of the world: expansionist and
contractionist.
I would also relate it to a more closed class structure on this side of the
Atlantic - though some Americans tell me that their culture has an equally
closed structure, it just isn't made as explicit. I exclude Australia from
this class discussion because I just don't know.
It will be interesting to see if there is any change in this pattern as
societies change over time.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:59:08 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Drugging to Control Behaviour
Message-Id: <E0yuAn1-0004dE-00@post.mail.demon.net>
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> Alison - I've had the pleasure of meeting you in person so I know that
you
> realise what work is involved in raising children, but I still feel
> compelled to take issue with your terminology.
> Susan Bennett
Extremely fair comment Susan, it was sloppy use of language. What happened
there was that I was feeling annoyed with the women who seem to ignore
their children, but it came across as if I was annoyed because they are
working at home.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 98 07:52:44 UT
From: "Anne Lane" <Anne_and_Mike_Lane@classic.msn.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re US health care (was flag waving)
Message-Id: <UPMAIL01.199807090753370713@classic.msn.com>
On Wednesday, July 08, 1998 6:13 PM, STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk wrote:
>
> Not related to health insurance, she also told of the case of a
> young boy who was shot in the street in Chicago. His friends
> carried him to the hospital but, because they were young boys,
> could not get up the ramp to the hospital door. Hospital
> managers stood just inside the door watching them, but would
> not help. It was half an hour before an ambulance crew arrived
> to take him the last 30 metres. He died.
>
Last year I was on the top deck of a bus in Catford, SE London, when a woman
passed out. Her husband explained that she had just been discharged from
casualty at Kings College Hospital and was on her way home, he thought she'd
had a fit of some kind. The driver took the bus on a couple of stops and
stopped outside the entrance to Lewisham Hospital. One of the other passengers
ran into the hospital to get help (not really safe for untrained people to
carry her down the narrow stairs of the bus) but came back with the reply that
we had to call an ambulance because hospital porters were not insured to deal
with patients outside the hospital. Ten minutes later when I got on another
bus the ambulance had till not arrived.
Anne Lane
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:10:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@eng.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: B7 Spin <b7spin@metva.com.au>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Drugging to Control Behaviour
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.980709104402.9591D-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Alison makes the excellent point:
>I'm pointing out that large numbers of women are drugged all day, every
>day. Which makes me wonder how happy they really are. I also think it
>explain some of the affectless-ness which I see about me.
>
>It also makes me wonder what would happen to society if the drugs were
>taken away.
To which Iain responded:
>I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but sometimes we do need to attend
>to the beams in our own eyes. There are many rather artificial
>distinctions in our society about how different drugs are perceived. If I
>took speed to perk me up at work, that would be a serious no-no, and coke
>would be right out even if I could afford it (unless I changed jobs to
>one of those flash City firms where it's de rigeur). Similarly, your
>"Stepford Wives" can acceptably take pharmaceutical tranquilisers, but if
>they drank instead they might well be regarded less favourably.
I'm agree that these two points are not mutually exclusive, but I do think
that your reply misses something, Iain. There *are* artificial
distinctions about how we perceive drugs in society; but surely the point
is about the alacrity with which some medical practitioners are willing to
prescribe tranquillizing drugs for people who are, simply, unhappy (and I
am making *no* generalizations about stay-at-home mums here, the same
point could be made about an unemployed depressed person, for example, or
indeed anyone who is depressed).
Both taking prescribed tranquillizers and drinking are potential responses
to boredom and unhappiness, I agree. Yet we deem one socially acceptable
because *it is validated by someone in a position of authority*. Someone
goes to her doctor because she is bored, or unhappy, or anxious - and she
is given a drug to take it away. It works - but is it *actually*
appropriate?
It seems the issue here is not just one of distinctions in drug
acceptability, but also one of distinctions in what we perceive as
'illness' and what we perceive as 'treatment'. How and, more importantly,
*why* is it that some definitions are 'regarded less favourably'?
Alison goes on to make the point:
>And I'm pretty sure that figures are available about the number of women
>who are on permanent psychoactive medication, and there are really a very
>large number. However I don't have the stats to hand.
Again, I return to the subject of depression (I know we've discussed this
at length before, but I do want to make a final point). A question posed
on courses I attended about psychotherapy for depression is: 'Why do women
suffer more from depression than men?' No-one seemed to be able to accept
what seems to me the obvious answer: 'Because we are more likely todefine
their behaviour as depression'.
ObB7 - can't come up with one! I *never* seem to come up with any B7
comments, ever!
Replies to the spin, perhaps? In the meantime, pass me the Prozac...
Una ;)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:39:40 +0100
From: "amanda" <amanda-robertson@lineone.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] happy endings
Message-ID: <01bdab1d$7edf3300$LocalHost@james-robertson>
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The people who survived where:
Avon - he was still standing an the end=20
Vila - there was no way he was going to stand there and be hit, he =
droped down before he was hit
I think the rest were dead=20
Orac - was probably running experiments on how things would turn out and =
who would be the best to help for his survival
To Judith there is nothihg wrong with reading the end of a book first is =
there?????=20
I keep telling this to my husband any way:-)
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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>The people who survived=20
where:</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Avon - he was still standing an =
the end=20
</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Vila - there was no way he was =
going to stand=20
there and be hit, he droped down before he was </FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>hit</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>I think the rest were dead=20
</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Orac - was <FONT color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"">probably running experiments on how things would turn out and =
who would=20
be the best to help for his survival</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D""><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>To Judith there is nothihg wrong =
with reading=20
the end of a book first is there????? </FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>I keep telling this to my husband =
any=20
way:-)</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:46:26 +1000
From: "Christine Lacey" <eshva@magna.com.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Happy endings
Message-Id: <199807091059.UAA27684@magna.com.au>
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> I like happy endings myself, but in the B7 world they are often hard
to
> imagine. There is a certain perverse pleasure in watching Avon et al
suffer,
> but it's with the expectation that no matter how hard they get hit or
knocked
> down, they will get back up.(Geez, sounds like a Rocky movie).
Actually, you've pinpointed one aspect that I know appeals to me a great
deal. One thing I love about Judith Seaman's stories is the way that,
regardless of the myriad atrocious torments that are inflicted on Avon, he
survives and wins out.
> This thread has me wondering. How many people think that our heroes
> "really" died on GP, even if that's not the ending you would have wanted?
How
> many believe they all lived? That might determine if the "happy ending"
folks
> are really in the minority. D. Rose
Everbody's dead, Dave.
Seriously, I've always been convinced that *all* our heroes died on GP.
Happy endings are nice, and I do like to read them occasionally, but I tend
to view them as AU.
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:30:27 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake (was Flag waving)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.42-0709133027-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
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On Wed 08 Jul, DJ Wight wrote:
>
> As Vila says: "Look, he was an Alpha grade on Earth. A highly
> privileged group, the Alphas." I think this *is* largely where my
> sense of his original commitment to resistance as more likely to
> have been philosophically motivated, grounded in altruism and an
> intellectual understanding of political ideals, rather than a matter of
> immediate, gut-level outrage, comes from. It�s either that or his
> awareness of history, driving the impression.
Yes, I think Blake has a definite awareness of history. Hard to say where I get
it from, but it's a combination of little details like knowing about churches
and saying to Sarkoff that he'd studied natural history.
>
> What I find hardest, when it comes to getting any good sense of
> Blake's character beyond the narrowest interpretation of the
> moment is, for me, the impossibility of opening any question about
> who he is and was, without immediately opening an infinite set of
> questions about the society and personal experience which created
> him...most of which seem mostly unanswerable. Things like just
> how explicitly repressive the Federation was. To what extent did it
> rely on naked oppression as opposed to more subtle promotions of
> apathy?
You can get answers to a lot of these, but only by studying episodes in fine
detail. eg. The solium device on Albion was about as explicitly repressive as
you can get. Cally's comment about what happened to the population of Saurian
Major is equally telling.
Torture of prisoners was frequent (I assume the big brain scan machines were too
expensive to be in common use). The use of a random worker to test the killer
virus in 'Project Avalon' shows what value was placed on individual human
rights.
They interferred in the politics of worlds outside the Federation - eg. rigging
elections on Lindor ('Bounty') and trying to destabilite Teal and Vandor
('Deathwatch'). 'Horizon' gives further examples of their treatment of native
populations and their interference in local politics.
The use of Pylene 50 was extremely heavy handed - it totally removed the will to
resist and is the main reason why the Federation recovered so fast after the
destruction of Star One (they recovered fast than Orac had predicted). Without
Pylene 50, Blake might have been able to make greater opportunities from the
destruction of Star One.
> How successfully did it justify its explicit restrictions in terms of the
> entire society being on a war or post-war survival footing? Its apparent
> militarization---how evident was that to most citizens?
What we saw on screen was biased towards the military because Servalan was
leading th hunt for Blake. However, the fact that troopers appear in situations
where we might have expected civilian police is indicative of how powerful and
widespread the military were.
> What illusions of freedom and democracy were fostered? I find it so
> interesting, in The Way Back , how intent Ven Glynd and company are on having
> all appear to be above-board in their handling of Blake�s case. Their concerns
> are framed in terms of a dissatisfied population and growing numbers of
> dissidents.
I think it was the undrugged alphas that everyone had to try and keep happy and
believing in the system. There was a desire to at least make things look
uncorrupt.
WE have very few hints as to the type of government, but even some people
within hte government failed to realise how great the corruption at the top was.
Look at Governor leGrand. (Voice from the Past).
My suspicion is that the system had worked smoothly at one time and that an
small clique had gradually siezed power and gained a complete stranglehold on
hte upper levels of government.
> Evidently control is not entirely---perhaps not even primarily---a matter of
> brute force, here. I immediately wonder if the regime has preserved some
> illusion of a more or less free news media, or, thinking of its sponsorship of
> the Terra Nostra as legitimized crime, perhaps tame activists. Perhaps that's
> what Foster meant about there being many activist groups, and Blake's the
> only one that really meant anything. So how much of the worst of Federation
> abuses were common or even uncommon knowledge? How much of it did Blake know?
> What knowledge, what personal or witnessed experiences, moved him from being
> whoever he was to begin with, to leading a resistance group in the first
> place?
There is a reference in one episode to Blake (pre-series) being involved in
attacks on rehabilitation centres, so he was certainly an activist even in
those days rather than just a theorist.
One of the reasons that I think the Federation was changing for the worse is
that both Blake and Foster did not expect to be fired on if they surrendered.
Thesystem was actually worse than they percieved it to be, and they already
found it bad enough to become active rebels.
>
> > After the mindwipe, he had many motivations. <snipping
> > again to condense> They'd tampered with his mind
> >(remember that there were still remnants of that Federation
> >conditioning at the end of the second season) and taken his
> >memory of who and what he was.
>
> Exactly! For me this adds the nightmare of sorting out how
> far his memory might still have been blocked at any point, and
> how he might have been experiencing that. It raises questions of
> the extent to which his persona ended up being a patchwork of
> real and implanted memories, and whether or not he ever
> recovered enough of his true self, or achieved a coherent enough
> patchwork, to feel he was 'all there'.
This is a large part of why I find Blake to be such a complex and compelling
character. I love to explore this kind of issue in fan fiction. What can he
truely know of himself? Does he know what's real and what isn't?
I think he sorted out a lot of it while he was on the London. He was the only
one of them who recognised the illusions put out by Liberator's defence system
for what they were. He knew with conviction that his family were dead (I'm
assuming that it showed him family) and thus was able to save Avon and Jenna.
However, he still had bits of real memory surfacing at the time of
Seek-Locate-Destroy as he mentions it in connection to Travis.
> Given the comfortable, pulled- together strength of the character we see, it
> would be easy to say 'oh, no problem, sure he did!' and I won't say I really
> believe he didn't...but the longer I look at it, the bigger an open question
> it seems. I can't help thinking (leaving aside all the real-world reasons why
> the character couldn't be either crazier or a more focused and effective rebel
> than he was) it might be as sound a reading to say that he only functioned as
> well as he did---only presented as unbalanced/possessed/berserk/mad, when he
> could feel he was approaching the immediate power to take down the Federation
> with one last strike---because the circumstances in which he found himself
> were relatively safe and simple. From the security of the fastest and most
> powerful ship in the galaxy, with only a small group of conveniently
> fractious (distracting) people to contain, can we fairly call the challenges
> he had to face---had to, rather than being able to choose or refuse
> them---anything like as overwhelming as those he'd have faced if he were
> still trying to organize a mass rebellion on the ground anywhere?
I don't think he could have commanded loyalty from Avon and the others if he
hadn't been pretty much on the ball. Avon's a pretty serious challenge in
himself.
Yes, Liberator was a relatively secure place to be, but he seemed to function
pretty well when having to deal with people on planet. His persona was
essentially the same there. (BBC budget prevented him from meeting large masses
of rebels <grin> - I've been listening to 'Elements' and David Maloney's
comments on how he pre-edited the scripts to reduce the number of extras.
Highly recommended. Available fom Sheelagh Wells - see my web page under
merchandise for details)
> One could argue his seeming lack of focus and strategic thinking as giving
> away the failure of the situation to challenge him either into a more
> effective recovery, or---for me, more likely---complete disintegration. But
> then I wonder if the doubts he expresses in "Blake" aren't partly signs of his
> persona disintegrating. Perhaps of other, darker experiences opening up other
> aspects of his past and revealing him to himself as other than he and we have
> believed.
You could write a very interesting story using that as a basis.
> >Many people initially see Avon as the more complex character
> >because he's dark and broody, but Blake's motivations and
> >feelings are complex, not least because of the mixture of
> >personal and idealistic motivation.
>
> Avon's easier to deal with, but by no means more complex. *Lord,
> no....* I find it's easier to follow what's happening with him, he has
> the advantage of starting as such a closed character, motives so
> narrowly defined and so much to suggest him a relatively immature
> and unsophisticated creature, that there's only one direction his
> story can run---towards his growing up and suffering the
> consequences. That and the fact that to the extent he's a mess, he
> appears to be his own mess the way most of us are. One simply
> doesn't have to deal with his having had the extraordinary help
> Blake's had. Or to put it another way, imagining him whole and
> complete, I get the image of (at best or worst, I'm not sure which )
> an 18 to 20 year old kid, an off the scale introverted nerd of
> dubious upbringing. Imagining Blake the same way, I get a tough,
> humane, mature, well adjusted, well educated and highly intelligent
> 30 year old, a force to be reckoned with on all levels. Not as noisy
> or obvious, and one doesn't need an advanced course in
> porcupine-cuddling to survive him, but a whole different *order* of
> complexity.
And when you put them together they have to try and deal with one another's
complexities, which makes for wonderful TV.
I'd love to read a story that had your version of a pre-series Blake. I've seen
some that came close, but don't have quite the same impact.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:46:21 -0400
From: Cam MacLeod <cmacleod@ilap.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Happy endings
Message-ID: <35A3BE79.FA4A5FE7@ilap.com>
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I think they all died. Nicely rounds out the drama in the series and the idea is
compelling enough to keep us all coming back to it.
I'd prefer to believe otherwise and I can see how at least some of them could
have survived but in "reality" they're goners. Even if they survived there would
have been many more unhappy endings - at the end of Blake they had no ship, no
base, on an insignificant frontier world, and likely were captives. Come to
think of it, that would be perfect for a 5th series. Alas.
AChevron@aol.com wrote:
> This thread has me wondering. How many people think that our heroes
> "really" died on GP, even if that's not the ending you would have wanted? How
> many believe they all lived? That might determine if the "happy ending" folks
> are really in the minority. D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:25:40 +0100 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re Happy endings
Message-Id: <798104280MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
Ray said: "Blake: Dead. Avon shot him at close range, so I
don't see how he can be alive."
He was only shot in the gut and he was on a base that
presumably had modern medical facilities. People can survive
gun shots into the gut today.
Ray said: "Avon: Alive. We don't see him killed. Also, he
was meant to be in the fifth season."
That's cheating. You can say that about any of them. In fact the
ending was done in that way in case there was a fifth season
and they could pick and choose who survived depending on
actor availability.
Ray said: "Dayna: Not sure, but probably dead. We see her get
shot."
There was no blood on any of the shootings apart from Blake.
We know federations guns can have multiple settings (see
Project Avalon for example), so they could be all on stun. I am
sure the federation would welcome a chance to interrogate that
lot.
Ray said: "Tarrant: Dead. He was in bad shape already, so I
doubt he could have survived."
Oh I agree, but that's just wishful thinking. Although I thought
he was in bad shape the first episode he appeared in.
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy
and taste good with ketchup
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:17:41 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.jones@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Dead or Alive; nee Happy endings
Message-ID: <DQi3sDAV6Gp1EwET@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <bbd7c831.35a453d8@aol.com>, AChevron@aol.com writes
> There've been over a dozen responses that I've tracked on this topic(GP;
>Dead or Alive), and so far I track at least 5 'all deads', with 5 that having
>some or all the crew surviving.(2 posts never answered the question, dealing
>with other aspects of the topic). For my own vote, I say at least some
>survive, but not all. This to set up another round of suffering and anguish
>for the survivors, with the barest gleam of hope that they still have a
>chance.
We know Blake's dead, from outside sources. Gareth Thomas wanted the
character very visibly, very on-screen, dead. To the point of having it
in his contract. As for the others - Chris Boucher has said on more than
one occasion that the ones whose actors wanted to go on were alive and
the ones whose actors wanted out were dead. I haven't seen an interview
where he specified which was which, but we can make some guesses :-)
My own reaction the first time I saw it was that they were all dead. I'm
now inclined to think that Blake's dead, Cally's dead, Gan's dead, Avon,
Vila and Orac survived, possibly not intact, and the others undecided.
Three gaping holes in your vital organs are a little difficult to
survive.
You need Blake dead, and it to be Blake rather than a clone etc, or you
lose the sense of pointless tragedy that makes it so compelling and a
fitting end to the series.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:33:57 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jeroen J. Kwast" <jeroenkw@bns.getronics.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (mailing list)
Subject: [B7L] Lost in space friday
Message-Id: <199807091833.UAA30577@pampus.gns.getronics.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Don't know if you all know but lost in space "blake's 7" will be on friday
10 july.
Just heard it on bbc2.
Bye!
Jeroen
PS: You better hear it 10 times then to read about it here on Saturday!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:40:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Ray Kaplan <rckaplan@agamemnon.ai.uiuc.edu>
To: Blakes7 List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Happy endings
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980709134453.7051A-100000@agamemnon.ai.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 9 Jul 1998 STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk wrote:
>Ray said: "Blake: Dead. Avon shot him at close range, so I
>don't see how he can be alive."
>
>He was only shot in the gut and he was on a base that
>presumably had modern medical facilities. People can survive
>gun shots into the gut today.
Like you said he was the only one bleeding. Unless there is a medical
facility on that base (which there could have been) he would have died
more than likely since the time they would have needed to move him they
were fighting fed troops. If the fed troops wanted to save him they were
busy shooting at everyone. All of this time Blake is bleeding to death.
Doesn't prove he is dead conclusively, but if someone isn't taking him to
a medical facility then the probablity of him dying increases by the
second.
Also, someone did mention that it was in Gareth Thomas' contract that
Blake must die within this episode so I don't think Blake would be coming
back in any way.
>Ray said: "Avon: Alive. We don't see him killed. Also, he
>was meant to be in the fifth season."
>
>That's cheating. You can say that about any of them. In fact the
>ending was done in that way in case there was a fifth season
>and they could pick and choose who survived depending on
>actor availability.
Not really. If I am wrong on this someone correct me, but the fifth
season was supposed to start out with Avon in exile since GP, so therefore
he must be alive. He has to kill an "old friend" who turns out to be
Vila. After that anything we know ends. But that is all we know about
who made it after GP. Others could have. They might not have. This is
also consistent with everything we see such as Vila falling the wrong way,
and not actually seeing Avon get shot.
>Ray said: "Dayna: Not sure, but probably dead. We see her get
>shot."
>
>There was no blood on any of the shootings apart from Blake.
>We know federations guns can have multiple settings (see
>Project Avalon for example), so they could be all on stun. I am
>sure the federation would welcome a chance to interrogate that
>lot.
This is why I said not sure, but probably dead. We don't know with any
certianty. There is an equal probablity the guns could have been on kill,
but like you said there is good reason that the fed would want them alive.
>Ray said: "Tarrant: Dead. He was in bad shape already, so I
>doubt he could have survived."
>
>Oh I agree, but that's just wishful thinking. Although I thought
>he was in bad shape the first episode he appeared in.
Very true.
_______________________________________________________________
Ray Kaplan CS Major University of Illinois
rckaplan@acm.org Chair of SigVR at ACM@UIUC
http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~rckaplan O-
_______________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:01:40 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: cmacleod@ilap.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Happy endings
Message-ID: <48302e68.35a559e6@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-07-09 13:49:57 EDT, cmacleod@ilap.com writes:
<< I'd prefer to believe otherwise and I can see how at least some of them
could
have survived but in "reality" they're goners. Even if they survived there
would
have been many more unhappy endings - at the end of Blake they had no ship,
no
base, on an insignificant frontier world, and likely were captives. Come to
think of it, that would be perfect for a 5th series. Alas. >>
Remember, this was the situation at the end of Terminal....and things still
worked out.....to a degree................
Shil
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:52:58 GMT
From: kminne@camtech.net.au (Ken Minne)
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Shopping for Blakes Seven Videos
Message-ID: <35a55f7e.1879902@mail.camtech.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Good day all,
Could some of our English list members suggest the most likely stores
or retail outlets for obtaining the Fabulous Films Blakes Seven
videos?
I would like to know who is most likely to have all the available
tapes in stock at the best price.
I have an uncle who may be travelling to the UK in the near future,
and I would like to give him a shopping list. >;-)
By comparison, here in Adelaide, Australia, the one store that I have
talked to about the videos, is going to be importing a couple of
copies for about AUS$45 each. ( He has still got some of the BBC tapes
at AUS$29 )
Does anyone know if there is an Australian distributor for the
Fabulous Films tapes?
Thanks
Walter Minne
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #188
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