From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #243 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume98/243 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 243 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo [B7L] Paul Darrow and Elvis Re: [B7L] Most prolific B7 fanwriters Re: [B7L] Paul Darrow and Elvis [B7L] re Paul Darrow & Elvis Re: [B7L] Most prolific B7 fanwriters Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo [B7L] Murdersville [B7L] Jenna the Bimbo [B7L] TV Guide: ooops [B7L] Another song for a growing list Re: [B7L] Another song for a growing list ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:21:29 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0921172129-339Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon 21 Sep, Murray wrote: > Many, including myself, have lamented the treatment of Jenna in the > series. Instead of being the vigorous, independent smuggler we expected, she > became more the blonde bimbo at the teleport. Despite this, I found, when > reading Trevor Hoyle's novelisation of the first four chapters, that things > could have been worse. The following extract is located at the time of > 'Cygnus Alpha' when Jenna has found something new to wear, and is showing it > off to Avon. The latter has figured out the foolproof method of stealing 5 > million credits from the Federation > > when Jenna appeared in the doorway and softly called his name. > Avon casually looked round and then sat up straight, his > eyes popping out of his head. His first thought was to wonder how > a beautiful and sexy star maiden had managed to get aboard the > _Liberator_ and it took all ot ten seconds for him to realise that > it was Jenna, attired in the most magnificent - and rather > revealing - space-age costume. > She stood in the doorway, well aware of the stunning > effect and revelling in Avon's goggling admiration, her expression > one of impish seductiveness. > 'That looks-' Avon swallowed '-incredible.' He got slowly > to his feet and gazed at her with real appreciation. > 'You think it does something for me?' Jenna enquired coyly, > posing for him. > Avon nodded dumbly. 'It does something for me too,' he > confessed. > 'It's been a long time since I wore clothes like this. It > makes me feel like a woman again.' > 'It doesn't leave too much doubt about that,' Avon told her > truthfully. 'Where did you get it?' > > Looking at 'Cygnus Alpha', I didn't think that her costume was that > sexy. Perhaps if it was something corresponding to the gold bikini worn by > Princess Leia in 'Return of the Jedi' I might have had a different opinion. > What does everyone else out there think? I think "Thank God for Chris Boucher"!!!! If Hoyle was working from the original scripts (as I believe he was), then you can work out pretty clearly how much was gained in the way of improved dialogue by the script editor's work. By Chris's own account, he did a massive amount of rewriting on the first season scripts. They were running tight on time and given the choice of asking Terry Nation for the next script or a rewrite on the one in hand, he tended to ask Terry for the next one and do the rewrites himself. Most of Avon's best dialogue was penned by Chris including, presumably, "I'm glad you see you haven't been wasting your time on frivolities." Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 03:14:29 PDT From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com> To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo Message-ID: <19980922101430.8229.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >People consider the discussion of Jenna-the-character being treated >in a degrading manner because of her gender ADULT??? Hm. Just to head off any further misunderstandings, let's say that "adult" is a word that's frequently abused, or used as an excuse to write offensive rubbish. This may not be the case in fan fiction, but it certainly is elsewhere. Perhaps I might also make the point that Avon's portrayal was degrading as well -- evidently there are always going to be some writers who think that people deserve to be enslaved by their gender, be that male or female. >/Jenna/ was certainly underutilised in many episodes - but more >because the >writer seems to be more comfortable writing the powerful roles for >the men. >This becomre more evident in the 3rd Season though, and by that time >Jenna >is gone. More powerful roles for the men? So where does that leave Servalan and Soolin? I'm not saying that certain negative attitudes weren't there -- otherwise Cally wouldn't have died the death she did in the 3rd season -- but sometimes I wish people would acknowledge that other factors were at work. As Soolin, Glynis Barber took a while to come into character, but as soon as she did (i.e. in "Assassin"), she started to get the memorable lines. In fact, people do acknowledge other factors than gender bias. At Deliverance, Sally Knyvette did point out that she was inexperienced, and would have handled the situation very differently at a later stage in her career. >Wooden? In constrast, she gave a very good portrayal of the >character - a character who wasn't a snappy or witty as >Blake/Avon/Vila. Sorry, but if you look at her introduction in "The Way Back", she looks incredibly wooden next to Gareth. She had her moments, like the time she humiliated Raiker in "Space Fall", but for me that was the exception rather than the rule. >If you want a woodenly played character - look at Gan! [Not that >there was much poor David Jackson could do but anyway] Agreed. And, aside from not getting given many memorable lines, he was written out because his character was the weakest link in the chain. No one says that was unfair. >Besides, in Shadow and Horizon - it was the male charaters reacting >to >their judgement/knowledge of her /not/ Jenna given lines and screen >time to >play it out much. In Shadow, Jenna staggered Blake by attacking him openly -- something he never expected her to do, as he thought she would ratify and approve his every move, because he was Blake and she was Jenna. /That/ was one of the times Jenna did come out. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:13:47 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0922081347-9eeRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon 21 Sep, Rob Clother wrote: > On the subject of Jenna, I've bought the videos up to "Pressure Point", > and I'm not sure I buy the "Jenna the Bimbo" theory anyway. Her roles > in "Shadow" and "Horizon" were major ones -- she stood up to Blake in > the former, and Blake based a key decision on her in the latter. If her > lines weren't as slick as Avon's, Vila's or Blake's, you need good > delivery to deliver good lines. I don't think hers was up to the mark > -- to me, she looks very wooden next to Blake, and there is no obvious > chemistry with any of the other actors. She was strong in other episodes too. Just look at Cygnus Alpha. She over-rode Avon and brought Blake back on board. Takes determination. Remember when Avon asks her if she can kill in cold blood? Jenna says there's one way that he can find out. You're left in no doubt that she is capable of killing him. Also consider other episodes like 'Hostage' The girls were left behind to man the teleport, but consider what happens when the crimmo is teleported aboard. Neither of them panic. They check their actions with one another by keeping in eye contact and they dispose of him quite neatly. I think it may also be that episode that has one of my favourite Cally moments. Cally leaves the telport area and Jenna asks where she's going. "I'm going to clear the neutron blasters for firing." That's my warlike Cally. Never gratituously violent, but extremely pragmatic and will never shy away from a necessary fight or fail to think ahead. > > By contrast, Cally was under-utilised. She shines at the beginning of > the second season, and it's a shame she becomes such a drip in the > third. Jan had the ability to make more out of her character, and she'd > proved it in the past. Unfortunately, the writers decided to waste that > ability. I'm not sure you can really say the same thing about Sally. If I remember correctly, it was virtually Sally's first acting job. One of the things she said was that she hadn't the experience to go and talk to the writers and ask them to put better bits in for her. The writers certainly did respond to input from the actors. 'City at the Edge of the World' is a good example. Michael Keating tells how his young daughter said that Vila was stupid and this episode was written to let Vila shine for once. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:02:47 +0100 From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: [B7L] Paul Darrow and Elvis Message-ID: <3607E642.C18CF6D2@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note about the October issue (no 10) of Area 51 in the UK. Because it's not flagged on the cover, some of you may have missed that it has a two page interview with Paul Darrow inside. It says he is an Elvis fan and based his lip curl on him. -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:46:18 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Most prolific B7 fanwriters Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0922064618-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon 21 Sep, JMR wrote: > At 04:52 21/09/98 GMT, s.thompson8@genie.com wrote: > >Just for fun, here are all the authors from my current list of gen > > stories who have written 10 or more stories each (counting > > collaborations separately for each author) published in paper > > zines. > > (snip) > > > It would be very interesting to know how many of the authors you listed > are, in fact, still writing B7 stuff to this day. I, for one, haven't > written any B7 since at least '92. What about everyone else who made the > list? Anyone know? Sheila Paulson gaffiated to Real Ghostbusters! Leigh Arnold wrote to me the other day. People may remember that she spent many months in a coma after a riding accident. She's made an incredible recovery after all the doctor's predictions that she'd be a mental vegetable and is now doing a college course majoring in journalism. She's not writing in fandom any more though she does hope to try writing professionally. I'm still scribbling, though perhaps not as prolifically as I used to. I just wrote a short one for the recent Horizon competition, though I've no idea if they'll use it or not. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:25:50 -0500 (CDT) From: "G. Robbins" <robbins@graceland.edu> To: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> cc: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Paul Darrow and Elvis Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980922132309.25108A-100000@inet-ux.graceland.edu> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Steve Rogerson wrote: > Just a note about the October issue (no 10) of Area 51 in the UK. > Because it's not flagged on the cover, some of you may have missed that > it has a two page interview with Paul Darrow inside. It says he is an > Elvis fan and based his lip curl on him. > -- > cheers > Steve Rogerson > > Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention > 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent > http://www.smof.com/redemption/ > > "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" > Star Wars > > > > That's funny, because here at school I was putting picture of Paul Darrow on my door and someone said in passing, "Are you an Elvis fan?" and I just looked at them stupidly, not understanding what they were talking about! I really never connected them because truly I don't think they even look remotely alike. --Grace ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:47:36 +0100 From: Jackie <jackiew@termlow.co.uk> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] re Paul Darrow & Elvis Message-ID: <3607FED8.791E@termlow.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Steve Rogerson wrote: > > > Just a note about the October issue (no 10) of Area 51 in the UK. > > Because it's not flagged on the cover, some of you may have missed that > > it has a two page interview with Paul Darrow inside. It says he is an > > Elvis fan and based his lip curl on him. > > -- > > cheers > > Steve Rogerson > > > > Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention > > 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent > > http://www.smof.com/redemption/ > > > > "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" > > Star Wars > > > > > > > > > > That's funny, because here at school I was putting picture of Paul Darrow > on my door and someone said in passing, "Are you an Elvis fan?" and I just > looked at them stupidly, not understanding what they were talking about! > I really never connected them because truly I don't think they even look > remotely alike. > > --Grace Paul portrayed Elvis on tour a few years ago, and once he`d grown his hair into the Elvis quiff thing, you really had to look twice. It was really eirie from a short distance away. Paul played the older Elvis in the play Are You Lonesome Tonight. (Also in the play was the actor who played the *male* Cancer in Assasin). Must dash, I`m late for work Jackie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:31:09 EDT From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Most prolific B7 fanwriters Message-ID: <4d27ec7c.3608171d@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hmmm! Never thought I was writing so many stories! Second place ain't bad. Haven't worked on any new B7 since SHADOW AT THE EDGE (the LAST STAND AT THE EDGE OF THE WORLD sequal) but Annie and I have done a lot of Highlander fanfic in the past few years and are currently working on the third novel of our HL novel series. I figure if I factor in all the stories in all the fandoms I've written in since I began writing back in 1973, I've probably done well over 100 individual stories either by myself or with Annie. Now if you add in all the ARTWORK, you can see that a job is just something I do to keep me busy between fantime. Leah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:49:35 +1000 From: "Katrina Harkess" <kharkess@mail.usyd.edu.au> To: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>, <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Jenna the Bimbo Message-Id: <199809222133.HAA22514@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NB - I think we have differeing interpreataions but lets leave 'adult' at that, hmm? > > Perhaps I might also make the point that Avon's portrayal was degrading > as well -- evidently there are always going to be some writers who think > that people deserve to be enslaved by their gender, be that male or > female. Yes, I know. Much to my regret. On the otherhand, that is what happens in the real world so it isn't unrealistic or wrong to use degrating stereotypes of people. But it is worth discussing - sometimes it has been taken way too far or done in a way that /isn't/ realistic. > > More powerful roles for the men? So where does that leave Servalan and > Soolin? Servalan's character was orginally written as male. Soolin a powerful role? Not really. Only in one or two episodes and all the women shine in at least one or two episodes. and I said More as in plural roles Blake, Avon, Vila, Tarrant, 1st season Travis. They are /all/ powerful roles and noticible more consistant in their power than the women's. I'm not saying there isn't exceptions - there is! But there is still a tendency to give the consistantly powerful roles to the male characters. > > I'm not saying that certain negative attitudes weren't there -- > otherwise Cally wouldn't have died the death she did in the 3rd season > -- but sometimes I wish people would acknowledge that other factors were > at work. As Soolin, Glynis Barber took a while to come into character, > but as soon as she did (i.e. in "Assassin"), she started to get the > memorable lines. Assain was wonderful, wasn't it? Her other good episode was 'Warlord'. But she never really got whatt he others did and there simply were enough episodes when she could be focussed on to really give the potential we saw in Assasin. > > In fact, people do acknowledge other factors than gender bias. At > Deliverance, Sally Knyvette did point out that she was inexperienced, > and would have handled the situation very differently at a later stage > in her career. Yes, you can see the inexperience in it sometimes but it doesn't change the way the writers wrote the basic character - they created a woman who could have been fascinating and glamourous and then never used it. It shouldn't /need/ the actress to complain and say 'hang on a minute'. Did the male character's have to complain much and say 'you aren't giveing my character a good role'. They were written good episodes and lines as a matter of course - admittedly, they probably helped to tweak them. > > Sorry, but if you look at her introduction in "The Way Back", she looks > incredibly wooden next to Gareth. She had her moments, like the time > she humiliated Raiker in "Space Fall", but for me that was the exception > rather than the rule. I disagree. Her introduction, to me, is mysterious and and has more than a touch of 'prison tension' in it. If people don't agree with me, that's fine, but I can not say she is wooden. > > >Besides, in Shadow and Horizon - it was the male charaters reacting > >to > >their judgement/knowledge of her /not/ Jenna given lines and screen > >time to > >play it out much. > > > In Shadow, Jenna staggered Blake by attacking him openly -- something he > never expected her to do, as he thought she would ratify and approve his > every move, because he was Blake and she was Jenna. /That/ was one of > the times Jenna did come out. I've never disputed that she had her moments. Think of Pressure Point if you will. Or the ending of Hostage. But in neither of those episodes was the spotlight on her. She wasn't there much, she didn't do much. Sure, she reacted well but who got the lions share of the air time? Pressure point - the men down of the surface! Hostage - The men down on the surface! Sure, they might have relied on the women and the women didn't let them down but no one can say they were powerful or character developing roles. What do we learn from them about Jenna? Not much really, when you compare to how much information is there on the men But hey, B7 in general is wonderful. If it wasn't we wouldn't be ont he list, right? Katrina. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:14:45 +0100 From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: [B7L] Murdersville Message-ID: <36082F52.96D66842@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While at The Crucible on Saturday, I noticed among Gareth's TV credits listed in the programme was The Avengers. Judith informed me this was from the episode Murdersville, which I have since discovered is on one of the M Appeal collection being released at the moment (as the name suggests they are all Emma Peel adventures). It is on tape 4 of 6 (three episodes per tape) and I have since bought and watched it. It is a very young Gareth and it is a small but silent role. But it is still worth getting if you are an Avengers fan. -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:31:42 EDT From: SuzanThoms@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Jenna the Bimbo Message-ID: <d549f549.36084f7e@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Katrina wrote: << I've never disputed that she had her moments. Think of Pressure Point if you will. Or the ending of Hostage. But in neither of those episodes was the spotlight on her. She wasn't there much, she didn't do much. Sure, she reacted well but who got the lions share of the air time? Pressure point - the men down of the surface! Hostage - The men down on the surface! >> I think one of the biggest factors here is that during the shows initial run the public wanted to focus on the male leads (Avon and Blake) and that's who the writer's concentrated on. There simply wasn't enough airtime to do justice to the females without sacrificing onscreen time for the males. And it was the males the shows audience wanted to see. And I must admit that *I* would prefer to see more Avon onscreen than take time and dialogue away from him in order to focus on Jenna or Cally. Although I WOULD have liked to have seen more of Avon & Jenna / and Avon & Soolin working together. Especially Avon & Soolin. I thought they worked well as a team the few times we saw it. Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:00:04 -0700 From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] TV Guide: ooops Message-ID: <3605C134.3928@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jay wrote: > I would like to get a "TV Guide synopsis" for all 52 eps and put them on my > website. Please add or make suggestions for improvement. > Trial���.Blake travels to save an adversary Travis takes to drinking and goes on a rampage. rather than: oops! I was thinking: Duel for: An older woman takes an interest in Blake - sending Jenna up a tree! Pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:31:46 PDT From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Another song for a growing list Message-ID: <19980923033147.26067.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Now that I'm no longer feeling Tarrant-tortured (phew!)... I know this subject pops up quite often, but I'm willing to risk it on the off-chance that this particular example hasn't been discussed ad nauseam (1994 is slowly and painfully been drawn from the archives). Anyone remember a song called "Only for sheep" by The Bureau? I've been listening yet again to one of Triple J's Thursday night retrospective sessions that I taped some time ago - a one hit wonders of the '80s program that included this song, and it's going round and round in my head at the moment. Its relevance? Well, I keep thinking of "Voice from the past". The first and last verses would do nicely for Blake in that episode, the second verse for Ven Glynd, and the chorus has exactly the right amount of sneering at idealism that we all know and love (?) from Avon, especially as it harks back to the discussion in the computer room in "Spacefall" about Blake being a dreamer. Anyone agree, or anyone likely to point me in the direction of the archives again (because it's already been discussed to within an inch of its life)? Thanking you for your indulgence Regards Joanne You would do well to ensure that the fairies have sent you angel dust and not Angel Dust. --Kaz Cooke, The Little Book of Crap. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:50:37 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Another song for a growing list Message-ID: <d54be430.360918cd@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > Anyone remember a song called "Only for sheep" by The Bureau? <snip> > Its relevance? Well, I keep thinking of "Voice from the past". I'm not familiar with the song, but the title makes it sound promising. Would it be a serious song for B7 or could it be made into a humorous music video? Blake's crew following after him in the manner of sheep... While you are doing song research, how about some tunes for Tarrant? Now that he's used to your attention, he's going to be hurt if you start to neglect him. <g> Have I mentioned my most recent "B7" song discovery? "Falcon in the Dive" (from the current Broadway production of "The Scarlet Pimpernel") for Travis. Carol Mc -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #243 **************************************