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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 274
Today's Topics:
[B7L] B7/Bill/Brush Strokes Connection
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] Redemption-stewards
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
[B7L] Darrow Interview
Re: [B7L] Darrow Interview
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
[B7L] Jenna the Vampire Slayer Teaser
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:08:03 +0800
From: "Fleur A Johnstone" <fleur@p086.aone.net.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] B7/Bill/Brush Strokes Connection
Message-Id: <199810300926.UAA29385@mail.mel.aone.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Calling B7 fanatics. I watched the episode "Trial" the other day (local
video store had it) and was surprised to see Kevin Lloyd (Tosh from The
Bill) playing a guard. He was certainly much younger, quite handsome in
fact. Are there any other Bill actors (obviously 40+) who have played a
part in B7??
While still on the subject of actors who made a start in B7, the actor
Karl Howman, who is starring in a series screening in the UK at the moment
(the name escapes me, but it's about a man flatting with two young women),
played a druggie in the "Shadow" episode. I can remember him best as Jacko
the painter in the series "Brush Strokes" (made in the 80's).
Looking forward to your response(s).
Regards, Fleur
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:59:40 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <19981030095940.13414.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Paraphrasing TigerM:
What happened to religion during the Federation years? How could so
many people have given up traditions and ways of life that they'd held
on to for so many thousands of years? The Soviet Union tried and failed
to outlaw religion: how could the Federation succeed where others
failed?
My answer:
I think it's a question of time span. Reading about Europe through the
Middle Ages, I've begun to realise that it is possible to separate
peoples from beliefs they've held on to for thousands of years: the
pagan peoples of Europe were all Christianised eventually -- Lithuania
held out for longest, but they were subdued before the Renaissance.
History was then written by the victors, and paganism lapsed into
obscurity. It is gradually being rediscovered, but I don't think there
are any unbroken historical lines of pagan traditions (Perhaps Calle
will be able to enlighten us here).
However, let's remember that this was a process that lasted over 1000
years. There's no reason to suppose it would happen any more quickly in
today's world: if anything, the process would be slower, because todays
population is so much greater. Hence, the Soviet attempt to suppress
religion took place in the mere blinking of an eye -- and I'm not sure
how determined the attempt was -- as far as I know, the Orthodox Church
was never outlawed, just required to hand its wealth over to the State.
Again, someone more knowledgable about these events may be able to help
here.
Incidentally, thanks to Sarah for the encouragement to write a Medieval
B7 story -- I had been tentatively brewing a plot for a
post-GP yarn, but what little I had planned would probably work better
in the Middle Ages anyway. It will probably be a while before I get
round to writing the thing, as RL seems to be demanding large amounts of
my time and energy. But hopefully I will get round to it before too
long!
Cheers,
-- Rob
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 30 Oct 1998 12:28:25 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <qdtcall@esavionics.se>
To: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <ishfwmp9uu.fsf@godzilla.kiere.ericsson.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
"Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com> writes:
> It is gradually being rediscovered, but I don't think there are any
> unbroken historical lines of pagan traditions
None that can be proven, anyway.
--
Calle Dybedahl, qdtcall@esavionics.se, http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/
Mediocre minds think alike.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:52:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.981030123333.6791E-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Tiger M said (with slight edits by me):
>Likewise, other groups like many sects of Christians and the Mormons
>would not give up their faith and way of life easily.
I would be very surprised if Catholicism didn't hang on in there: it has a
long history of surviving (and implementing!) persecution: opposition to
oppressive regimes has often been focused around the Catholic Church: e.g.
in Poland and many Latin American countries. Also, the English Catholic
tradition is founded on a tradition of opposition to the establishment;
see the words of the hymn which we sung v. frequently at church and
school: 'Faith of our fathers, holy faith: we will be true to thee till
death.' (The Irish Catholic identity is *entirely* bounded up with the
fight for freedom and opposition to a perceived oppressive regime, of
course!!) I reckon the Catholics would hang on in there! I wonder where
the Pope would be - if Catholicism survived he (or she!) would be *have*
to be somewhere... I imagine the Jesuits would have a role in all this...
>Judith Proctor wrote a story where the Amagons were Muslims who had left
>Earth to hold on to their religion;
I liked this story a great deal. It really helped me develop a strong back
history for Jenna whenever I write about her: how would she have operated
within a Muslim society? What would have been the role of women in such a
society?
>I think many other groups would have done the same. History is full of
>examples; the Pilgrims in New England is the one that comes most readily
>to my mind. I also think that some of them may have gone underground,
>perhaps surviving in the Delta and Gamma classes.
A friend of mine wrote a wonderful story in which the couple who hide Avon
after he was shot turn out to be Quakers: again, another religious group
which has been the focus of much persecution.
>The Soviet Union tried for decades to wipe out religion (although they did
>set up Lenin as God) without success.
Various dictators have attempted to create state religions: I suppose the
most obvious one is Robespierre during the Terror in France. I doubt this
sort of thing is all that successful: it's usually more successful to
assimilate local beliefs in order to control them (like Easter). I imagine
the Federation would go for something more like the first option, if it
tried to step beyond simply oppressing religion.
All very interesting!!
Una
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inadequacy is sociology.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:27:17 -0000
From: "fifitrix" <fifitrix@dial.pipex.com>
To: "'B7'" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Redemption-stewards
Message-ID: <01be0400$a2204ed0$1b649384@idscarf.unichem.co.uk>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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>I haven't received the second PR yet - has everyone else? (I also didn't
get
>any written confirmation of registration, although my name is on the web
site
>membership list.)
>
>Anne
>
Me too...me too...me too!!!!!! I haven't had any written confirmations
either (although - Judith, I did receive my Redemption T-Shirt - thanks very
much!) And I haven't had any progress reports either.....at all.......or
anything!
<forlorn forgotten face with wobbly bottom lip>
fifitrix
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:07:25 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-Id: <E0zZEFk-0006fI-00@post.mail.demon.net>
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Rob said -
> I think it's a question of time span. Reading about Europe through the
> Middle Ages, I've begun to realise that it is possible to separate
> peoples from beliefs they've held on to for thousands of years: the
> pagan peoples of Europe were all Christianised eventually -- Lithuania
> held out for longest, but they were subdued before the Renaissance.
> History was then written by the victors, and paganism lapsed into
> obscurity. It is gradually being rediscovered, but I don't think there
> are any unbroken historical lines of pagan traditions (Perhaps Calle
> will be able to enlighten us here).
You don't have to go so far into the past. The 'pagan' religions of Africa,
the Americas, Australia, Central Asia and Oceania have all been partially
or completely eradicated, a lot of this has gone on in our century. Some of
it is going on now.
FWIW I think that the decisive factor is technological superiority. This
applied in the middle ages, and it applies now. You have to convert to get
access to education, government jobs, contacts. The missionaries have
access to luxuries, better medicine. The same story every time. I think
'Horizon' presents this dynamic very clearly.
Alison
PS You might like to look at Marija Gimbutas on the persistence of Eastern
European religious beliefs, she ties in folk traditions with archaeological
evidence [e.g. the frog prince, mother goose etc.]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:09:09 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <72f5079d.3639c885@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-10-30 07:41:13 EST, Una wrote:
<< Various dictators have attempted to create state religions: I suppose the
most obvious one is Robespierre during the Terror in France. I doubt this
sort of thing is all that successful: it's usually more successful to
assimilate local beliefs in order to control them (like Easter). I imagine
the Federation would go for something more like the first option, if it
tried to step beyond simply oppressing religion.
>>
Servalan did seem to be aiming for something like this in Rumours of Death, or
at least a Juan Peron type of thing.
Una, I really like your thoughts on the Catholic Church. I would imagine that
at the point of the series, the Pope would probably not be on Earth. I also
think that there might be quite a few Catholics (along with people of other
religions) involved in the Resistance. Perhaps the Jesuits secretly send
missionaries to Earth? It would make a good story. Perhaps we could
collaborate.
Rob and Calle, the pagan traditions may not have survived unbroken, but as
Alison pointed out, many of them were assimilated into the Christian
traditions. To give a few examples, Halloween was originally a pagan holiday,
which is why many of the more conservative Christians in the US don't
celebrate it. Also, there's that evergreen that many of us will be decorating
in the living room in a few weeks, which is also a holdover from pagan custom.
I think part of why the Christianizing of Europe was successful was that
assimilation.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: 30 Oct 1998 16:22:54 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <qdtcall@esavionics.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <is67d2oz01.fsf@godzilla.kiere.ericsson.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Tigerm1019@aol.com writes:
> Rob and Calle, the pagan traditions may not have survived unbroken,
My point was that it is not proven if the traditions survived, neither
for nor against. It's very hard to prove anything about religions that
are based on spoken tradition and makes a point of being secretive.
> but as Alison pointed out, many of them were assimilated into the
> Christian traditions.
This is another "may or may not be true". That elements of older
practices were incorporated into christianity is undoubted, but it's a
long step from that to saying that entire religions were assimilated.
> To give a few examples, Halloween was originally a pagan holiday,
I'm quite aware of that. I'll be celebrating said pagan holiday with
my coven tomorrow :-)
> Also, there's that evergreen that many of us will be decorating in
> the living room in a few weeks, which is also a holdover from pagan custom.
What little we know of ancient practices indicates that while trees
were decorated around midwinter, they were *left in the ground*. Quite
a few modern pagans take a very dim view of killing trees just for a
few days of rather pointless decoration.
--
Calle Dybedahl, qdtcall@esavionics.se, http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/
Mediocre minds think alike.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:38:54 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <a4d9d79b.3639dd8e@aol.com>
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this is a tough issue to get into without getting bogged down in Federation
history as I percieve it, but I'll try a few short notes.
I have no doubt that organized religion exists in the B7 universe, but only
outside those areas the Federation has immediate control of. Gan's questions
about the ruins and the fact that Vila never mentions or displays anything of
religious content(even in a derogotory way) seem to point out a lack of
exposure or knowledge of religion. Even Blake's knowledge comes off as
textbookish, much as his knowledge of "natural history." Like the Soviet
government, and a lesser degree the Nazi one, the Federation appears
determined to make the State itself the object of any
worship/devotion/adulation that the masses might feel.
But there are hints that there have been earlier migrations from Earth, in
which colonies were established independently of Earth/Federation rule. Some,
like Helotrix, were eventually taken back into the Federation, or like Suarian
Major, simply destroyed. Some, such as Auron(I hold that the Auron are merely
a splinter group of humanity and not a different species, but that's another
arguement), have managed to retain their independence throughout.
Significantly, the Auron have their legends of gods. Still other colonies,
such as Cephlon and Xenon, seem to have managed to destroy themselves. In
those cases, the surviving populations have reverted to various religious
practices, to explain the ruins of the civilization they see around them.
Given that there are over 200 worlds that we know of in the Federation
itself(managed by Star One), and that there are a number of independent, semi-
independent, or loosely governed border worlds, the probability is that the
"old" religions, such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and others, are still
practiced in some form. As well as new religions we have not seen. An
interesting jumpoff point for a story; a Mahdi arises in the Frontier Worlds
to lead a Jihad against the Federation. Nasty decisions on our favorite
heroes; support it despite its intolerent views, or end up fighting on the
Federation's side.
But I digress. Man's need for religion goes back as far back in history as
we can tell. While the Federation may make it unfashionable, or even dangerous
to display religious tendencies, I doubt if they've wiped it out of existence.
And that's my idea of short notes on the matter.:-) Deborah Rose
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:11:57 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <c0d7a11c.3639c92d@aol.com>
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Whoops, sorry, it was Una who mentioned assimilation as a successful strategy.
It's too early for me here and i'm not quite awake yet.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:32:17 GMT
From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray (TCD))
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-Id: <199810301932.TAA12811@dux1.tcd.ie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Deborah,
I agree with your comments that 'I have no doubt that organized
religion exists in the B7 universe, but only outside those areas the
Federation has immediate control of. Gan's questions about the ruins and the
fact that Vila never mentions or displays anything of religious content(even
in a derogotory way) seem to point out a lack of exposure or knowledge of
religion. Even Blake's knowledge comes off as textbookish, much as his
knowledge of "natural history."' This lack of knowledge of religion shows
how effective the Federation has been in brainwashing even rebels, at least
as regards the rebels we know about best.
Of course, there is the reasonable possibility that 'the "old"
religions, such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and others, are still
practiced in some form. As well as new religions we have not seen.' It seems
logical that, just as many Jews participated out of all proportion to their
numbers, in resistance or partisan movements against the Nazis, people with
strong religious feelings would be present in many rebel units for the same
reason; they have their religion to lose along with everything else. If the
Federation is as atheistic and godless as it seems, I have no doubt that
these people would be its most fervent foes. And if they die, depending on
the faith they belong to, many will create martyrs for the cause.
Yours,
Murray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:42:41 -0800
From: "Ann Basart" <abasart@dnai.com>
To: "Blake's7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Darrow Interview
Message-Id: <199810301939.LAA01801@mercury.dnai.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Attention B7 fans in the San Francisco Bay Area: An interview with Paul
Darrow from 1987 will be shown on PBS station KTEH, Sunday Nov. 1st,
12:40-1:10 a.m., following the late-night Dr Who that begins at 11 pm.
Technically of course it's early Mon. morning, Nov. 2nd.
I have no more information than this.
Ann Basart
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:15:00 -0800
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: "Blake's7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Darrow Interview
Message-ID: <DnhHRPAE5hO2Ewj2@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <199810301939.LAA01801@mercury.dnai.com>, Ann Basart
<abasart@dnai.com> writes
>Attention B7 fans in the San Francisco Bay Area: An interview with Paul
>Darrow from 1987 will be shown on PBS station KTEH, Sunday Nov. 1st,
>12:40-1:10 a.m., following the late-night Dr Who that begins at 11 pm.
>Technically of course it's early Mon. morning, Nov. 2nd.
<whimper>
On too late for me to watch it without disturbing other half when I go
to bed. No VCR in this apartment. I wonder who we know with a VCR.
--
Julia Jones
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:28:08 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <90df77ab.3639db08@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Rob wrote:
<< Hence, the Soviet attempt to suppress
religion took place in the mere blinking of an eye -- and I'm not sure
how determined the attempt was -- as far as I know, the Orthodox Church
was never outlawed, just required to hand its wealth over to the State. >>
On the contrary, not only was the Orthodox Church outlawed and forced to go
underground, but priests and bishops were killed. Clergy were not allowed to
where their clerical garb. Churches were closed, being turned into museums or
public buildings. If you were an acknowledged Christian, there were many jobs
you could not get. It was a terrible time for all Christians.
The Orthodox Church has endured this and many other trials. She would
certainly still be around regardless of what the Federation did!
Gail G.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:07:04 -0600
From: kmwilcox@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (K. Michael Wilcox)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Jenna the Vampire Slayer Teaser
Message-Id: <199810310501.GAA22230@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Here, as I (sorta, kinda) promised, is a little teaser to the first JtVS
story. I'll try to finish it in the next week or two, but I thought this
might be a fun Halloween appetizer.
K. M. Wilcox
----
Jenna the Vampire Slayer -- Teaser
Second Technician Terrance Romer clenched the minitorch between his teeth
and squeezed his head into the space under the dispenser's nozzle. After a
bit of squirming, he could look straight up the nozzle and see the problem,
an oversized bit of chicken-substitute lodged halfway along.
"I need a microplunge," he tried to say, the message being somewhat
corrupted by the fact that his mouth was still holding the torch. When no
one answered, he tried shouting and accidentally swallowed it. In a panic,
he tried to extricate his head and discovered that he was stuck.
"Lester, get me out of here!" he screamed. Still no response. Absol-
bloomin'-lutely typical, Romer thought; here he was in a life-or-death
struggle, and Terrance "Buh?" Lester couldn't get off his backside to help.
It was a continual amazement that the man didn't forget to breathe.
Unfortunately for Romer, the main reason he'd been saddled with this
assistant was that the idiot station commander thought it enormously funny to
put together two men who were both Terrance.
"Lesteeeeeeeer!"
Something fell to the floor in the hallway outside, and Romer paused.
Maybe the fool had forgotten to breathe, after all. "Lester?"
"Oh, he won't be able to help you," a soft, feminine voice said. It was
very nearly the most attractive voice he'd ever heard, second only to the
woman who announced Federation news and a school marm he once knew (whose
sexiness was curtailed by the fact that she had the face of a yak), and it
wasn't one he recognised. So now there was a probably very sexy woman
standing there, and her first image of him was a guy with his head in the
soup machine. At least things couldn't get much worse.
"Could you help me then?" he asked with what sweetness he could muster.
"Of course." He felt thin hands with long fingers grab him about the
waist, then slide up to his armpits. "Hold still," she cooed, her breath
brushing against his neck.
Then he felt her lips brush his neck, and he began to feel a whole new
kind of discomfort. "Ma'am, couldn't you wait until I'm free before you
start making out with me? I mean I know that..."
Then he felt the teeth.
"Welcome back to the land of the living."
Jenna opened her eyes and stared up at the dark-haired woman hovering over
her, but couldn't distinguish any features. "Cally?"
"Sorry. Is that a friend of yours?"
Jenna tried to nod, but couldn't move her neck. "We were shipmates."
She could see that the woman was frowning. "Were you two fighting in the
war?"
Jenna struggled vainly to sit up and discovered that most of her body was
in restraints. With a bit more effort, she snapped a couple of them and sat
up slightly. "Do you know something about my ship? Where're my friends?"
The woman tried to nudge Jenna back down. "No, I only know that the
fighting hasn't been in this area for almost six weeks. If anyone else in
your ship got to escape pods, we didn't find them. And it's nearly
impossible that they would be alive by this point, anyway. You were nearly
dead when we found you eight days ago."
"So where am I now?"
"A hospital ship. We're on our way to York Station. It's a semi-neutral
installation well away from any combat, so you and the other patients should
be safe there."
"What do you mean they've gone missing?" Commander Barrett shouted.
"They did not report in at the end of their shift and no other crew member
has seen either of them," Ivanov explained.
"We're on a station! Where could they have gone?"
"Nobody knows, sir."
Barrett groaned and lay his head on his desk. "How many does that make
now?"
"Twelve in the last month, sir. Seven technicians and five civilian
support staff."
Barrett looked his subordinate in the eye. "Ivanov, I want you to get to
the bottom of this now. We'll be getting a hospital ship here before the end
of the week, and if this isn't solved, it'll be more than both our positions
are worth. Am I clear?"
Ivanov nodded. "Yessir." He spun on his heel and strode from the office.
As soon as the door closed behind him, he allowed himself a tight smile.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:55:15 -0000
From: "Susan Bennett" <susanb@iol.ie>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-Id: <199810311248.MAA11668@mail.iol.ie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Una said:
>>>(The Irish Catholic identity is *entirely* bounded up with the
fight for freedom and opposition to a perceived oppressive regime, of
course!!) <<<
Sorry if I'm being dense here, but could you explain further? I
don't understand what you're trying to say or whether or not it was
in jest. I expect it is because your statement is so general, and if
so I apologise for asking for clarification. I'm not a practicing
catholic (in fact I hardly qualify for the title at all and prefer to
describe myself as christian rather than catholic), and having lived
in England I can see that there are differences, but I don't
recognise your description of Irish catholicism from anything in my
experience.
Susan Bennett
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #274
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