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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 276
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
[B7L] B7/The Bill; and religion
Re: [B7L] B7/The Bill; and religion
[B7L] Ozzy Osbourne
Re: [B7L] Ozzy Osbourne
Re: [B7L] B7/The Bill
re: [B7L] B7/The Bill
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
[B7L] The Crucible
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 06:52:02 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <19981101145203.29109.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Gail G. quoted me:
><< Hence, the Soviet attempt to suppress religion took place in the
>mere blinking of an eye -- and I'm not sure how determined the
>attempt was -- as far as I know, the Orthodox Church was never
>outlawed, just required to hand its wealth over to the State. >>
and then pointed out:
>On the contrary, not only was the Orthodox Church outlawed and forced
>to go underground, but priests and bishops were killed. Clergy were
>not allowed to where their clerical garb. Churches were closed,
>being turned into museums or public buildings. If you were an
>acknowledged Christian, there were many jobs you could not get. It
>was a terrible time for all Christians.
This made me realise that the phrase "just required to hand its wealth
over to the State" was a terrible faux pas. Let me retract that and
apologise. Of course, no form of repression should be trivialised in
that way. However, my original point was that, while the Soviet era was
a terrible time for Christians -- something few would deny -- a small
number of churches (around 10,000 during Khrushchev's presidency, for
example) did remain open, with permission from the State. In that
respect, though the Church was the object of vicious propaganda and
persecution, the State stopped short of actually outlawing her.
I'm still not convinced that Christianity would be equipped to survive
all attempts to extinguish it. It is not only the fate of the pagan
traditions that conditions me into thinking this way: it is also the
fate of Christian heretics like the Arians and the Cathars. Beliefs can
be stamped out. I don't like that any more than the next man, but it
happens, and it could quite conceivably happen in the B7 universe.
Cheers,
-- Rob
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 04:07:20 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <000501be05b1$d03a8940$d51bac3e@default>
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Religion in the B7 era: interesting subject. There +ACo-are+ACo- =
references in the series with religious overtones (ie+ADs- use of the =
words +ACI-God+ACI- and +ACI-Hell+ACI-, and Vila likened passing through =
Horizon's magnetic barrier to Judgement Day), and someone on Freedom =
City was dressed as a nun (complete with crucifix). So I don't think =
cognitive awareness of religion has disappeared within Federation =
society, but it is not widely practiced. 'Pressure Point' implies that =
the Federation actively sought to suppress religion when it introduced =
the New Calendar. Judith Proctor in +ACI-Nova+ACI- suggested that the =
Federation scapegoated religion as the source of the chaos that almost =
scuppered civilisation, and thereby built its power on an anti-religious =
platform. It's a thought, but personally I don't buy it.
The evidence in the series suggests to me that the Federation arose out =
of a society that was already predominantly atheist, and that a =
religious minority represented a focal point for dissidence that needed =
to be disposed of. If religious belief was widespread immediately =
before the Federation, it would have continued in the face of =
persecution (cf under Communist regimes in this century) and maintained =
a high profile among dissidents+ADs- this was not evident in the case of =
Blake and his crew. Other dissident factions within the Federation might =
well have a more theological impetus, but I would expect these to be =
localised (eg a Muslim/Judaic/Christian etc planet seeking to establish =
its independence).
Did religion persist within Federation society? Well, we can only =
guess, but I reckon it would, albeit only by a very small percentage of =
people, and then very discreetly. It may even have been tolerated by =
the authorities so long as it didn't get out of hand (an unfinished =
story I started - one of many+ACE- - had Travis turning a blind eye to a =
trooper wearing a crucifix). Beyond the Federation, who can tell? I =
wouldn't be surprised if the old faiths (not to mention a few new ones) =
are thriving on isolated colonies. Anyone care to write a story about a =
planet full of New Scientologists awaiting the return of L Ron Hubbard?
There is also the matter of how the series treated religion, especially =
'Cygnus Alpha', 'Deliverance' and 'Games'. CA tackled the political =
aspect of institutionalised religion (ie, considered religion as a =
sociological process)+ADs- the other two eps were, to my mind, just =
plain condescending (through their portrayal of Meegat's naivety and =
Mecronian savagery respectively).
Neil
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B7 era: interesting=20
subject.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- There +ACo-are+ACo- references in the series with =
religious overtones=20
(ie+ADs- use of the words +ACY-quot+ADs-God+ACY-quot+ADs- and =
+ACY-quot+ADs-Hell+ACY-quot+ADs-, and Vila likened=20
passing through Horizon's magnetic barrier to Judgement Day), and =
someone on=20
Freedom City was dressed as a nun (complete with =
crucifix).+ACY-nbsp+ADs- So I don't=20
think cognitive awareness of religion has disappeared within Federation =
society,=20
but it is not widely practiced.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- 'Pressure Point' implies =
that the=20
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New=20
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+ACY-quot+ADs-Nova+ACY-quot+ADs- suggested that the=20
Federation scapegoated religion as the source of the chaos that almost =
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civilisation, and thereby built its power on an anti-religious =
platform.+ACY-nbsp+ADs-=20
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the series suggests to me that=20
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atheist,=20
and that a religious minority represented a focal point for dissidence =
that=20
needed to be disposed of.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- If religious belief was =
widespread immediately=20
before the Federation, it would have continued in the face of =
persecution (cf=20
under Communist regimes in this century) and maintained a high profile =
among=20
dissidents+ADs- this was not evident in the case of Blake and his crew. =
Other=20
dissident factions within the Federation might well have a more =
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impetus, but I would expect these to be localised (eg a =
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etc planet seeking to establish its =
independence).+ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4-
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+ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT color+AD0AIw-000000 size+AD0-2+AD4-Did religion =
persist within Federation=20
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very small percentage of people, and then very discreetly.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- =
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have been tolerated by the authorities so long as it didn't get out of =
hand (an=20
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blind eye to a=20
trooper wearing a crucifix).+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Beyond the Federation, who =
can tell?+ACY-nbsp+ADs- I=20
wouldn't be surprised if the old faiths (not to mention a few new ones) =
are=20
thriving on isolated colonies.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Anyone care to write a =
story about a planet=20
full of New Scientologists awaiting the return of L Ron =
Hubbard?+ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4-
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size+AD0-2+AD4APA-/FONT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/DIV+AD4-
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series treated religion,=20
especially 'Cygnus Alpha', 'Deliverance' and 'Games'.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- CA =
tackled the=20
political aspect of institutionalised religion (ie, considered religion =
as a=20
sociological process)+ADs- the other two eps were, to my mind, just =
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condescending (through their portrayal of Meegat's naivety and Mecronian =
savagery respectively).+ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4-
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 12:01:55 PST
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <19981101200155.20586.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello to all, and Especially Alison !
Regarding the question of Religion and whether it could survive
a goverment as presented in B7-
I think it could, but it may not be the religions that we would be
comfortable with. New systems of philosophy may be created or older
systems of thought may be merged together. Alison asserts that:
You don't have to go so far into the past. The 'pagan' religions of
Africa,
the Americas, Australia, Central Asia and Oceania have all been
partially
or completely eradicated, a lot of this has gone on in our century. Some
of
it is going on now.
Ahem. Maybe, maybe not. In Panama and other Carribean countries
(that's West Indies to you English folk:) sure, the slaves and natives
*appeared* to converted to christianity... while practicing Vodun when
the masters were not looking. Orthodox christians in Russia prayed in
the basement and hid their beliefs so that they could get jobs with
states. Chinese and Tibetan buddhists have held on to their beliefs with
an amazing tenacity. And while there was a spread of Islam and
Christianity throughout Africa and Asia ( with Islam being the stronger
of the two) there are still strong threads of the original religious
beliefs going through in that area. Often the spread of religion has to
do more with trade and access to wealth than the validity of the
beliefs. Missionaries often understand this all too well.
If there is a religion in B7, I would say the belief in superior
technology and firepower overrides all else- not freedom of spirit nor
solace of the soul but the reality of survival, and the immediacy of
placating desires.
Edith
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 14:37:15 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] B7/The Bill; and religion
Message-ID: <19981101223716.13100.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Dangermouse mentioned actors from The Bill - the mostly likely one
would've been Graham Cole, who tended to be monsters and Cybermen in the
early Davison episodes of Doctor Who. Now, if he'd ever played a
Federation trooper...what an interesting slant that would put on PC
Stamp, seeing as we know how irreverent Federation troops can be when
left to themselves (as with Forres in "Rumours of Death").
Fleur, it was my brother who recognised Par as "Tosh". I had to fast
forward to the end of the episode to see the credits to be convinced.
As for Halloween:
>was originally a pagan holiday,
one that was assimilated to a certain extent, as the name itself is a
variation on All Hallows Eve, which is, of course, the day before All
Hallows Day, and it is a European tradition to visit the graves of loved
ones and bring them flowers on that day. (As a sidelight, I was most
astonished to learn in high school that the flowers concerned were often
chrysanthemums, which was why my French teacher said she was looked at a
little strangely when she told someone that chryssies are the flowers
Australians tend to give to their mums on Mothers' Day.) We all know,
however, that decorating graves and paying honour to the dead goes back
much further than two millenia.
How was your celebration, Calle? (Not that I'm asking for details, just
hoping it went well.)
Deborah said:
>Man's need for religion goes back as far back in history as we can tell
[snip] I doubt if they've wiped it out of existence.
Deborah, have you heard of the "God spot" in the brain? This was in the
news some months ago. Apparently, some scientists have found an area in
the brain that is wired to believe in things. I don't mean in terms of
gullibility, but in terms of faith. So I think everyone referring to the
difficulty in wiping out religious belief is quite right, as it appears
that even atheists are brain wired to believe in something. Even,
presumably, Avon (Anna Grant, Blake, take your pick).
Regards
Joanne
The media. It sounds like a convention of spiritualists.
--Tom Stoppard
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 17:19:00 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B7/The Bill; and religion
Message-Id: <Version.32.19981101170017.00e36400@dallas.net>
Message-Id: <Version.32.19981101170017.00e36400@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Joanne MacQueen wrote:
>Apparently, some scientists have found an area in the brain that is wired
>to believe in things. I don't mean in terms of gullibility, but in terms of
>faith.
It's actually a bit more complex than that. And while it's certainly an
interesting study, and a good pointer to more research, it's not conclusive
in itself. As usual, the results are being discussed and disputed.
>So I think everyone referring to the difficulty in wiping out religious
>belief is quite right, as it appears that even atheists are brain wired to
>believe in something.
Not necessarily. There is nothing about the research to date which says
that everyone has such a "spot", or that it is equally active in everyone
(in fact, the latter is almost certainly not true.) And there are probably
a lot of other influences over one's psychological need to "believe", a
trait which definitely varies enormously between individuals.
There's no denying, however, that supernaturalism is hard to get rid of in
a population, though some individuals either manage to escape from it or
had no need of it in the first place.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@ti.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 01:17:24 -0000
From: "Tom Forsyth" <Tom.Forsyth@btinternet.com>
To: "B7 Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Ozzy Osbourne
Message-Id: <E0za8ei-0001yN-00@neodymium.btinternet.com>
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Hello there. I've been very quiet recently - RL is taking over my life, I'm
sad to say. But on the plane the other day, listening to a new Ozzy
Osbourne album ("Ozzmosis" - newly bought, not newly released), a certain
song fell right into filk. Like they do sometimes. So here it is.
The original is entitled "Perry Mason". And apologies for the scan in some
places (but it's no worse than the source material). If you don't know the
tune, try:
http://www.epiccenter.com/EpicCenter/custom/125/artistsounds.html
for a sample. Enjoy.
Tom Forsyth
"Eccles! Help me get this room on."
Terry Nation
============
apologies to Ozzy Osbourne, Zakk Wylde and John Purdell.
Searching for some evil
that the Doctor has to halt.
Eating in the canteen
and he reaches for the salt.
The shape of it inspires him
to create a brutal foe,
And an egg-whisk and sink plunger
made the Daleks that we know.
I can't find
Science fiction on the telly,
Blows my mind.
And I'd watch it my friend
Over and over again.
Who can we get on the case?
We need Terry Nation.
Someone to take us to space.
Calling Terry Nation
Again.
Again.
Take some desperados
of an interstellar kind.
Ship them to a planet
where they'll all be doing time.
Escaping in a cool ship
that they find floating around.
With a telepath and fishtank
they're the blackest bunch in town.
I just find
Studded leather kinda sexy.
Ruthless mind.
And we'll watch him, us fen.
Over and over again.
Who'll put some cowboys in space?
We need Terry Nation.
Someone with plot, style and pace.
Calling Terry Nation
Again.
Again.
Make me a Survivor,
tell me I'm alright.
There's a few of us still standing
from a plague spread overnight.
How much can we salvage?
Can we put the world to rights?
[guitar solo]
And I'll watch you, my friend.
Over and over again.
Who can we get on the case?
We need Terry Nation.
Someone to take us to space.
Calling Terry Nation
Again.
Again.
Again.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:54:59 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: pennypoly@geocities.com
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ozzy Osbourne
Message-ID: <19981102045500.7946.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>The original is entitled "Perry Mason".
Only ever having heard it in bars and similarly less-than-ideal
listening environments, I must admit: I thought for years that the song
WAS called "Terry Nation".
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:15:43 +0000 ()
From: "a.p.williamson" <ijs96105@ccsun.strath.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B7/The Bill
Message-Id: <199811020915.JAA10550@skye.cc.strath.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: Fleur A Johnstone <fleur@p086.aone.net.au>
>
> Calling B7 fanatics. I watched the episode "Trial" the other day (local
> video store had it) and was surprised to see Kevin Lloyd (Tosh from The
> Bill) playing a guard. He was certainly much younger, quite handsome in
> fact. Are there any other Bill actors (obviously 40+) who have played a
> part in B7??
Stephen Greif appeared in an episode of "The Bill" called "Betrayal" last
Thursday evening in the UK. He played a Police Assistant Commisioner.
Can't say any more about the episode without spoiling it for overseas
viewers, but it was a fairly significant episode....Greif had a
relatively small, but pretty important, role. If anyone doesn't mind
being spoiled, they can e-mail me privately at
andrew@alba.u-net.com
I can't think of another regular character in "The Bill" who's also been
in B7, but I'm sure there have been many appearances by B7 actors in "The
Bill" simply because they've been on so long, produce so many episodes,
and go through so many guest characters each year. It's often said that
an episode of "The Bill" comes free with your Equity card.
Incidentally, Kevin Lloyd sadly passed away earlier this year, following
long-term problems with alcoholism.
Andrew Williamson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:01:05 +0000
From: JMR <jager@clara.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: re: [B7L] B7/The Bill
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19981102100105.0069332c@mail.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Joanne MacQueen wrote:
>
>Dangermouse mentioned actors from The Bill - the mostly likely one
>would've been Graham Cole, who tended to be monsters and Cybermen in the
>early Davison episodes of Doctor Who. Now, if he'd ever played a
>Federation trooper...what an interesting slant that would put on PC
>Stamp, seeing as we know how irreverent Federation troops can be when
>left to themselves (as with Forres in "Rumours of Death").
I was talking to Diane Gies on the telephone and happened to mention this
thread. Diane confirms that Graham Cole was indeed a Federation trooper.
One of the troopers who shot down Vila, Tarrant et al in "Blake".
Just thought you'd like to know.
Judith
J.M. Rolls
jager@clara.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:43:35 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-Id: <E0zaKGJ-0000Dp-00@post.mail.demon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Hello to all, and Especially Alison !
Hi right back. My emails to both lists are responses to Edith. Must be some
kind of synchronicity.
> Ahem. Maybe, maybe not. In Panama and other Carribean countries
> (that's West Indies to you English folk:) sure, the slaves and natives
> *appeared* to converted to christianity... while practicing Vodun when
> the masters were not looking.
<snip lots of interesting things>
I agree, just didn't want to pronounce of the subject from my position as a
western outsider. One of my email correspondents is a Voudou mambo who
is into Star Trek, so we have discussed some of this.
>Often the spread of religion has to
> do more with trade and access to wealth than the validity of the
> beliefs. Missionaries often understand this all too well.
I couldn't agree more. It simply defies belief that everyone in a society
should suddenly change their metaphysics within a generation.
I wonder why some cultures prove more tenacious than others? I wonder why
some religions go underground, while some take on the clothing of the new
religion, and some survive defiantly?
> If there is a religion in B7, I would say the belief in superior
> technology and firepower overrides all else- not freedom of spirit nor
> solace of the soul but the reality of survival, and the immediacy of
> placating desires.
This is exactly what I think when I am most cynical. Then again I sometimes
feel that it is the yearning of the soul that breaks religion apart,
because it can not be tamed.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:28:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.981102142719.24435A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Una McCormack wrote:
> Tiger M said (with slight edits by me):
>
> >Likewise, other groups like many sects of Christians and the Mormons
> >would not give up their faith and way of life easily.
>
> I would be very surprised if Catholicism didn't hang on in there: it has a
> long history of surviving (and implementing!) persecution: opposition to
> oppressive regimes has often been focused around the Catholic Church: e.g.
> in Poland and many Latin American countries. Also, the English Catholic
> tradition is founded on a tradition of opposition to the establishment;
> see the words of the hymn which we sung v. frequently at church and
> school: 'Faith of our fathers, holy faith: we will be true to thee till
> death.' (The Irish Catholic identity is *entirely* bounded up with the
> fight for freedom and opposition to a perceived oppressive regime, of
> course!!) I reckon the Catholics would hang on in there! I wonder where
> the Pope would be - if Catholicism survived he (or she!) would be *have*
> to be somewhere... I imagine the Jesuits would have a role in all this...
>
I've just realised: Avon is a Jesuit. It all makes so much sense...
Iain
(Who spent his formative years at a Jesuit school. Some people think it
shows.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:25:27 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] The Crucible
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1102072527-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Just a general reminder for any Scottish members of the list. The Crucible is
in King's Theatre, Edinburgh from 3-7 November before going south to Darlington
Civic Theatre for 9-14 November.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
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End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #276
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