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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 28
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
RE: [B7L] Avon and power
Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Re: [B7L] Avon and power
[B7L] Pages London drink
[B7L] Blakes 7/Babylon 5
[B7L] Re Gareth and Jackie
[B7L] Digest problems; nerds
[B7L] Remove
Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Re: [B7L] Cygnus Alpha 1/2
Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Re: [B7L] Cygnus Alpha
Re: [B7L] Cygnus Alpha 2/2
Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Re: [B7L] Unsubscribing
Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
[B7L] B5 & B7
[B7L] Neutral Zone
[B7L] Peter Mandelson (getting way off-topic)
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point & Cygnus Alpha
Re: [B7L] Blakes 7/Babylon 5
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:18:38 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Message-ID: <19980128081838.35196@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tue, Jan 27, 1998 at 02:09:56PM -0500, Elbert G Rudasill wrote:
>
> Look, I haven't posted in quite a while.
>
> But keep your eyes open.
>
> B5 isn't just about the *Shadow War*.
>
> JMS has stated on national TV that Blake's 7 *is* one of the
> stronger influences on the show, just as is the Lord of the Rings and
> Foundation trilogies.
Except, of course, he's very heavily trying to deny any Tolkien influence
now, once people twigged to the fact that there are hundreds of
correspondences between Tolkien (not just LoTR) and Babylon 5.
Check out http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat/b5/b5.htm for a few of them.
I hadn't heard the *Foundation* connection before. Of course there's The
Prisoner, and Bester's books, touches of The Sandman, even. And World War
II. And other things.
Which makes it all very fascinating, a veritable tapestry.
> And IMHO B5 is a much *stronger* programme, because unlike B7,
> the galaxy of B5 is much better thought out, the plot line(s) are a
> helluva lot more intricate, and there is more to the programme than
> homosexual overtones and sardonic characters attempting to prove who is
> superior to whom (and *yes* I'm talking about AVON).
>
> As a series, B5 is already superiror to B7 becasue at least they
> know what their ending is going to be instead of cheating the veiwers
> with a cheap cliffhanger. (Don't get me wrong, I *do* enjoy Blake's 7),
> but some of the recent comments on this list re: Babylon-5 are
> unwarrented and quite small minded.
If you're talking about *my* comments (and I'm not the only one who's
commented), well, I thought this was a Blake's 7 list, so I wasn't going
to go into great detail about why I no longer like Babylon 5.
> Babylon 5 is *not* just about the shadow war, it's also about the
> Narn Centauri war, the Earth civil war, The colonies battle for
> independence, the Minbari Civil war, the fall of Centauri Prime, and the
> upcoming Telepath war.
Well, it's about World War II and The War of the Ring, and the Silmarils
as well. Echoes and re-echoes. And refractions and inversions...
Once you start digging into it, the reverberations are amazing.
Until you realize that the subtext is appalling.
> It's about choices, and what those choices mean, and how the
> choices of a few can affect the choices of the many.
> Babylon-5 is a much more complicated programme than light vs. dark.
(No, it's about the inversion of light and dark...)
Babylon 5 is very intricately plotted, yes. In the first season. To a
lesser extent, in the second season. To an even lesser extent, in the
third season.
I *used* to think that Babylon 5 was the best thing since Blake's 7.
The characters weren't so fascinating, but the plots made up for it.
If my comments seem bitter, it's because I liked Babylon 5 so much.
It *was* the "last best hope". And it failed.
> And, unlike Jenna, Cally, Dayna, and Soolin, the female
> characters on B5 have been strong throughout the *entire* series.
Yes, well, let's see. He gave Talia a fate worse than death. He turned
Delenn into a puddle of hormones. And Ivanova changed from someone I
respected into someone I didn't. Lyta Alexander likewise.
All the major female characters that I liked, are either dead or warped.
And that's not to mention the minor ones, who tended not to fare so great
either. Deathwalker. Kemmer. Ms "sleeze" Political Officer.
Anna Sheridan...
> If this get's me *flamed*. Flame me.
You do seem to be waving a banner which says "flame me". Not because you
like Babylon 5. But because you are attacking us for not liking it.
> But understand something, B5
> *is* a stronger program than B7. B7 may have influenced B5, but B5 is a
> better show. Part of it's the fact that technology has improved, so B5
> has *real* special effects,
So? I know that, you know that, we all know that - and it's irrelevant.
Now, it's *pleasant* that Babylon 5 looks prettier than Blake's 7, but
it's the plots and characters that are the acid test. And what it all
means.
> but the other part of it is Terry Nation was
> working off of the seat of his pants in his writing of B7. He has stated
> himself that he didn't know what B7 was when he pitched it, and JMS had
> planned out B5 three years before he pitched it - the *entire* series -
Which in one sense, is one of the weaknesses of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 is
so strong on plot, that that has weakened its characters. JMS is not
listening to the characters, he's just shoving them in the slots that he's
predetermined they will go in his plot.
> I just think a few of you are bothered by the fact that JMS has
> knocked Terry Nation out of the Guiness World book of records for total
> amount of consecutive television episodes written by one man in a series.
Um, let's say "unwarranted and small minded" again, shall we?
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on one side."
(a quote that never happened, from the Blake's 7 mailing list)
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:53:46 -0000
From: Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com>
To: "'B7 Lysator'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Avon and power
Message-ID: <01BD2B6C.396C40A0@host5-99-57-26.btinternet.com>
Kathryn wrote:
>Avon was a civilized man. But he's also an intelligent man, very
>efficient at learning what he needs to learn in order to survive.
>So, he learned how to use a gun; but I'm pretty sure that before the
>Liberator he didn't hardly ever touch the things (with the exception
>of the gun he used to kill the fellow with the visas, but remember Avon
>was shot himself - he could well have used the fellow's own gun on him,
>rather than bringing a gun to the meet himself.)
Somehow I never imagined that Avon shot the visa man with the latter's gun
- a man with a bullet in him is not in the best position to wrest a gun
from someone else. I assume that Avon took a gun as a precaution with no
intention of using it until the other guy fired first.
Other than that I agree with you; Avon clearly has no experience of
fighting on the London - he manages to knock out the bloke in the computer
room but is too stupid to think of him waking up. He doesn't make the same
mistake twice though...Somewhere between Spacefall and Shadow, Avon taught
himself to fight and shoot through necessity.
Louise
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:32:42 -0600
From: Reuben <reuben@reuben.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Message-ID: <34CE5278.7150@reuben.net>
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Sam wrote:
> I played two long term Advanced Dungeons & Dragons campaigns. The first
> lasted 10 years - my time, not the characters time. My Dwarven fighter went
> with his friends, followers of Norse Gods, to Ragnorok. And died a glorious
> death.
I am curious. Is Ragnorok just a Dr. Who reference (The Greatest Show
in the Galaxy) or is it an actual mythical place?
Reuben
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:50:44 +0100 (MET)
From: gwr@easynet.co.uk (Gareth Randall)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Message-Id: <199801272250.XAA15833@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I am curious. Is Ragnorok just a Dr. Who reference (The Greatest Show
>in the Galaxy) or is it an actual mythical place?
It's an actual mythical event (if that's not an oxymoron!) rather than a
place, and the correct spelling is 'Ragnarok'.
My big book of mythology tells me :
In Norse myth, the monstrous hound Garm guards the entrance to Helheim, the
Norse realm of the dead. It has four eyes and a chest drenched with blood.
On the day of Ragnarok, Garm will join the giants in their fight against the
gods. The god of war Tyr will kill it in this cataclysmic battle but will
die from the wounds inflicted by the hound.
Gareth
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~gwr
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:59:19 -0000
From: "Tom Forsyth" <Tom.Forsyth@btinternet.com>
To: "B7 Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Message-Id: <E0xxK8c-0006SA-00@snow.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Reuben asked:
> I am curious. Is Ragnorok just a Dr. Who reference (The Greatest Show
> in the Galaxy) or is it an actual mythical place?
The beautiful Norweigian town of Ragnor is well-known for many things,
notably its fjords, its large population of retired Norse Gods and heroes,
its fjords, its perpetual thunder and lightning, its fjords, the absurd
number of heavy-metal bands named after it, its fjords, and, possibly most
famous of all, the hard candy rods that the town makes with the name inside
it.
So popular is this candy that it has become even more ledgendary than the
town itself, and in the same way that people say "Big Ben" when they mean
"Westminster Clock Tower", most stories now refer to heroes going to
"Ragnor Rock" by mistake.
Tom Forsyth.
P.S. It's either mythical, or it's actual, it can't be both. But I choose
fur-dwelling arachnoids...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:03:16 -0000
From: "Tom Forsyth" <Tom.Forsyth@btinternet.com>
To: "B7 Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and power
Message-Id: <E0xxK8j-0006SA-00@snow.btinternet.com>
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Louise wrote:
> Avon clearly has no experience of
> fighting on the London - he manages to knock out the bloke in the
computer
> room but is too stupid to think of him waking up.
I think you're being a bit harsh - hardened Irish terrorists (and their
girlfriends) occasionally forget too. Even when Richard Gere plays them.
Tom Forsyth.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:21:25 +0100 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Pages London drink
Message-Id: <198400185MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
Re the drink in Pages Bar in London on Feb 7.
Jenni said: "Yes! Yes! Yes! I'd love to come. Can I bring my
man, who is a major Fan of B7, although not a mailing list
member?"
Yes you can bring your man.
She added: "How do we know who you are? do we all wear a
red carnation or something?"
If anyone's going to the sci fi fair first, then we could meet
there. I live quite close so I'm going to the fair in the morning
and then going home again. But if people want to meet there, I
can come back for 4pm when it closes and meet by the pay
desk. We can then go for something to eat before Pages. It's
just round the corner. Otherwise, I'll get to Pages about 5.30pm
and wear one of my B7 Tshirts. Can those who are coming let
me know which, cos I'll only go back to the fair if there's
someone to meet.
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
Make your own tribble! Buy a hamster and cut off its legs
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:29:00 -0800
From: "PATTI McCLELLAN" <patti.mcclellan@kyl.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blakes 7/Babylon 5
Message-ID: <Megw.4900222@powell.fabrik.com>
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Easy now, fellow fen. Lots of people like B5 and lots of people
like B7. It's not necessary, surely, to engage in wars about which
one is "better"? I was ecstatic that JMS got B5 on the air -- I
remember a con when we were told about the proposed show, and that
it's technial advisor would be -- Harlan (gulp) Ellison. I am still
delighted that he managed to pull it off. But B7 was my first love
before B5 and it still is. Nevertheless, I understand those whose
delight has not waned. How about a compromise -- we won't flame B5
fans if they don't run B7 down to make B5 look better by comparison.
Patti
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:40:01 +0100 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: space-city@world.std.com
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re Gareth and Jackie
Message-Id: <198401030MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
Judith said: "Gareth Thomas and Jacqueline Pearce will be
signing items at Hollywood Superstore, 16-18 St Giles High St,
London, WC2H 8LN. It's near Tottenham Court Rd, tube
station. The date will be 21 Feb and the time 1pm until 4pm.
The phone number for information is 0171 8363736. I'm
thinking of going. If anyone else is, maybe we could meet up
at Page's Bar afterwards?"
EEk. I'm already going to Pages on the 7th. There is a strong
possibility I'll be going on the 14th. This would make three
times in a row. Oh, what the hell, why not? I was planning to
turn up for Gareth and Jackie's signing anyway.
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
Make your own tribble! Buy a hamster and cut off its legs
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 02:12:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Digest problems; nerds
Message-Id: <199801280229.CAA29995@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Help! Something seems to be wonky with either my digest subscription or my
ISP (creaky old Genie) or both. I only seem to be getting about every other
digest; I'm missing #s 20, 21, 24, and 25. Since Calle is away, is there
any other digest subscriber who has saved them and could forward them to me?
Also, of the five zine lists I sent out, I've only gotten one back from the
list, namely the multimedia gen. Were the other four (all-B7 gen, in two
parts; nonfiction; all-B7 erotica; and multimedia erotica) in the digests
that I missed, or did they somehow get lost in the ether?
On to Avon--
Patti said:
>Now, as for Avon being a nerd -- no, no, don't run, that's
>my slide rule, not my gun! Hey, I love Avon as much as next
>addict, but I can't deny what he was. The kick for me is in
>watching him transform himself from a nerd into a flamboyant
>space pirate with delusions of grandeur, while all the while
>underneath is that poor, scared nerd who just wants to be safe.
Oh, I agree totally, as you know! Which is why I used to call my trib to
the late, great Battle Stations apa "The Revenge of the Nerds."
> And I don't think Avon wants power over others. He just
>wants the power to be free of following orders, or being subject
>to threat by others. Or am I unconsciously declaring my own
>fondest wishes? Never mind.
I agree with this too-- about Avon, not about you!
Kathryn Andersen said (well, not to me, but I'm going to answer anyway):
>* Avon cannonically a nerd? You mean a geek, don't you? Not a nerd.
>No-one that sexy could be a nerd. (evil grin)
No, I mean a nerd, especially in the beginning. The sexiness, or at least
his own perception that he is potentially sexy, comes as part of the
transformation that is so fascinating to watch and that Patti described so
charmingly. I think the extrenal explanation for that change is in large
part Paul Darrow turning the character into more of what he wanted him to
be, but it reads beautifully as a logical development of the character in
the internal workings of the story.
I seem to have missed this the first time, but fortunately Alison quoted:
>Alex said -
>
>> 6. Speaking of work...
>> Can anyone recommend any good science fiction novels? I work at a Barnes
>> and Nobel and I feel I should try to read some of the less-well-known
>> authors in that genre (as it's where I work in the bookstore). Once
>>again, that one can be private e-mail, although I don't think it's too far
>>afield for the list.
Michael Swanwick, =Stations of the Tide=. Stunning. Anything by Iain M.
Banks (his =Consider Phlebas= has been mentioned here as having some
similarities to B7). Anything by C. J. Cherryh (some people think the
characters in her =Heavy Time= resemble B7 characters a little; I'm
undecided myself), although she writes fantasy as well as SF, so if you
dislike fantasy, be careful. John M. Ford is excellent, although again he
writes fantasy as well as SF (and also did one thriller), and I'm not sure
whether any of his novels are actually in print at the moment.
Are you into literary style? If so, Samuel R. Delany, Thomas Disch, Ursula
LeGuin. Or do you go more for action-packed adventure stories? If so, Lois
McMaster Bujold (who unquestionably has some B7 influence!), and Doyle and
MacDonald (the Mageworld books).
I liked Dan Simmons's =Hyperion= a lot, the sequel not quite as much;
haven't read the new one yet.
If you're really, really into written SF, you probably want to subscribe to
=Locus=, the trade paper, and read the reviews just to see what's new.
Julia mentioned:
>I was doing the colonisation period in school history classes when I
>first saw CA - the parallel struck me at the time. Even if the
>presentation was utterly naff. It's the wonky timeline in the episode
>that really has me fascinated, and that's not just the question of what
>B, J and A where doing for four months.
Care to expand on that? What else besides the discrepancy in how long it
took the convict ship to get to CA, and how long it took Liberator?
Julia also said:
>Hmm. He did start as a nerd. Definitely a nerd. He might even have
>stayed a nerd if he hadn't been played by an actor with ambitions to be
>Clint Eastwood. I think it took Paul about one and a half episodes to
>start noticably converting Avon into something slightly different.
One of the funniest things in the first Trevor Hoyle novelization is that it
was obviously written from some sort of preliminary script, before the
actual casting had been done, and describes an exceedingly nerdly, homely
Avon.
I don't know whether it was deliberate or not, but I really think it was a
brilliant idea to have the computer geek played by a handsome and rather
flamboyant actor. The unexpectedness of it is part of what makes the
character so fascinating, IMO.
Sarah Thompson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:34:32 -0800
From: SKAFLOC@ix.netcom.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <34CEA747.6A93@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
remove
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:02:43 -0500 (EST)
From: adering@ziplink.net (Alex Dering)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ragnorok (was B5 & B7)
Message-Id: <v01000000b0f433a62593@[208.196.104.142]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 3:32 PM on 1/27/98, Reuben wrote:
>
> I am curious. Is Ragnorok just a Dr. Who reference (The Greatest Show
> in the Galaxy) or is it an actual mythical place?
>
> Reuben
Ragnarok was the Norse equivalent of the Big Crunch. The End of Everything,
including Valhalla. As I recall the story, all the gods fight it out, and
they all die. I wonder if that makes the Norse unique in world mythology.
Usually the afterlife lasts forever.
Alex
----------------------------------------
"Sir Arthur St. Clare, as I have already
said, was a man who read his Bible. That
was what was the matter with him. When
will people understand that it is useless
for a man to read his Bible unless he also
reads everyone else's Bible?
A printer reads a Bible for misprints. A
Mormon reads his Bible and finds polygamy;
a Christian Scientist reads his and finds
we have no arms and legs."
-- Father Brown in "The Sign of the
Broken Sword" by G.K. Chesterton --
----------------------------------------
website: http://www.ziplink.net/~adering
----------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:45:49 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Message-ID: <34CEC60D.3EEA@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
re: a passionately written essay on B5, very nicely presented. No need
for flaming, this writer is ready to self-ignite. Much like early-stage
B7 fans.
> there are hundreds of
> correspondences between Tolkien (not just LoTR) and Babylon 5.
The scouring of the shire mattered to me in LOTR because I'd come to
know the place and its people before going off to war in far lands. In
B5 I didn't care whether they scoured Clark off Earth, cuz I knew
neither the place nor the players. So, so what?
> and the Silmarils as well.
what are their clones on B5?
> Until you realize that the subtext is appalling.
urm--what am I missing here? I hadn't noticed a subtext. Please
enlighten me.
> > Babylon-5 is a much more complicated programme than light vs. dark.
> (No, it's about the inversion of light and dark...)
LOL - a clever repartee :D
> If my comments seem bitter, it's because I liked Babylon 5 so much.
Exactly. First season, I was rivited: it had a teaser plotline dished
out in drips and dollops. It had mysterious characters with unexplained
pasts and the tantalizing potential for original behavior.
>
> > And, unlike Jenna, Cally, Dayna, and Soolin, the female
> > characters on B5 have been strong throughout the *entire* series.
>
> He gave Talia a fate worse than death.
And before that, stripped her of the power and mystery of the telepath
first portrayed by biz-dealer Lyta Alex.
> He turned Delenn into a puddle of hormones.
Saddest of all, for she was such a powerful character when she wore a
crest. Now she skips about like a girl, silly, beaming up at Sheridan
for all his good fortune. Women today need media role models who are
comfortable holding and wielding power - there are so few. Like so many
women, Delenn handed hers over to a man.
>
> > If this get's me *flamed*. Flame me.
Prepare neutron blasters for firing...
No, seriously, passionate opinions may be freely posted. But just as
football fans root for their team and disparage the others, so will B7
fans cheer their crew and fling catcalls at the competition.
> Which in one sense, is one of the weaknesses of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 is
> so strong on plot, that that has weakened its characters.
Again, I agree. A good party is not made by the theme. It's made by the
people - in this case, the cast. Interesting characters can make even a
no-theme party a fascinating affair. Just as wooden, one-dimentional,
predictable, stereotypical people can make even a mystery dinner dull.
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:50:12 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cygnus Alpha 1/2
Message-ID: <34CEC714.2066@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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PATTI McCLELLAN wrote:
>
> Regarding Voices: I kept waiting for Avon to inquire of
> Shevan whether he knew someone had attached a false eyeball
> to his bandages.
>
LOL! :D I'll hafta remember that one for April Fool's Day.
Actually, I assumed that was some sort of deliberately obvious
prosthetic, rather like Hal Mellanby's big black eyeball thingy on his
belt. Only Shevan was on a budget.
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:27:31 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Message-ID: <19980128212731.35618@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tue, Jan 27, 1998 at 09:45:49PM -0800, Pat Patera wrote:
> Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> re: a passionately written essay on B5, very nicely presented. No need
> for flaming, this writer is ready to self-ignite. Much like early-stage
> B7 fans.
LOL!
> > there are hundreds of
> > correspondences between Tolkien (not just LoTR) and Babylon 5.
> The scouring of the shire mattered to me in LOTR because I'd come to
> know the place and its people before going off to war in far lands. In
> B5 I didn't care whether they scoured Clark off Earth, cuz I knew
> neither the place nor the players. So, so what?
Well, actually, Earth isn't the Shire.
> > and the Silmarils as well.
> what are their clones on B5?
The Triluminaries. At least one of them, anyway. Check out "The Mythic
Well" part 2 on http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat/b5/b5.htm for the
full info.
> > Until you realize that the subtext is appalling.
> urm--what am I missing here? I hadn't noticed a subtext. Please
> enlighten me.
It would take too long, believe me.
> > > Babylon-5 is a much more complicated programme than light vs. dark.
> > (No, it's about the inversion of light and dark...)
> LOL - a clever repartee :D
>
> > If my comments seem bitter, it's because I liked Babylon 5 so much.
> Exactly. First season, I was rivited: it had a teaser plotline dished
> out in drips and dollops. It had mysterious characters with unexplained
> pasts and the tantalizing potential for original behavior.
And the resonances, with itself and with so many other things.
And the thought-provoking episodes which *did not* answer the questions
they raised (Believers, Deathwalker...)
First season was the best.
> > > And, unlike Jenna, Cally, Dayna, and Soolin, the female
> > > characters on B5 have been strong throughout the *entire* series.
> >
> > He gave Talia a fate worse than death.
> And before that, stripped her of the power and mystery of the telepath
> first portrayed by biz-dealer Lyta Alex.
Not sure what you mean by that. I *liked* Talia. She managed to be
strong *without* being callous.
> > He turned Delenn into a puddle of hormones.
> Saddest of all, for she was such a powerful character when she wore a
> crest. Now she skips about like a girl, silly, beaming up at Sheridan
> for all his good fortune. Women today need media role models who are
> comfortable holding and wielding power - there are so few. Like so many
> women, Delenn handed hers over to a man.
Yes! Whatever happened to the Delenn who nearly squashed G'kar into a
pancake? Eh?
> > > If this get's me *flamed*. Flame me.
> Prepare neutron blasters for firing...
> No, seriously, passionate opinions may be freely posted. But just as
> football fans root for their team and disparage the others, so will B7
> fans cheer their crew and fling catcalls at the competition.
Competition? Naw. There *is* enough room in the universe for both
Babylon 5 and Blake's 7 - if Babylon 5 had lived up to its potential.
It is never, *never* necessary to lay into the "competition" in order to
make your favourites look good - all that ends up happening is that *you*
look stupid. Everything must be judged on its *merits*, not on how bad
everything else may or may not be.
Which means that discussing the merits/demerits of Babylon 5 has nothing
to do with how good Blake's 7 is. My apologies that this is still here
and not on the spin list. Follow-ups are directed to the spin list.
> > Which in one sense, is one of the weaknesses of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 is
> > so strong on plot, that that has weakened its characters.
> Again, I agree. A good party is not made by the theme. It's made by the
> people - in this case, the cast. Interesting characters can make even a
> no-theme party a fascinating affair. Just as wooden, one-dimentional,
> predictable, stereotypical people can make even a mystery dinner dull.
Interesting analogy, but I'm not so sure that a party is like a story...
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"We're going to have riots out there - we should distribute emergency
video players immediately!"
(Max Headroom: The Blanks)
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:14:31 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cygnus Alpha
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980128080805.19352A-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, PATTI McCLELLAN wrote:
> The worst thing about Vargas is his lack of decent
> footwear.
I figured he'd just come in from his weekly squash game. 8-)
> Jenna is "smitten" besides being
> deeply in love with a ship.
While I think Jenna was definitely attractd to Blake as a man, she
was previously involved with rebel activities--she'd met Avalon--so I
think she might have had some sympathy with their cause on her own before
meeting Blake. I like the idea of her in love with the ship as a pilot,
like the women pilots in World War 2, but I don't see it in the episodes.
> As for how they survived, there being no more than 500
> people, I always figured the *sacrifices* were eaten.
8-) That could be. They might as well gt rid of some of the
surplus men--the ratio of men to women must have been extraordinarily
high since women prisoners are smething of an oddity in Space Fall.
> Poor Jenna always seems to be demonized, left out, or
> marginalized in fanfic. Too bad the writers of the show missed
> the boat on her and Cally.
I don't think they did a great job with Dayna either; her
killing ability dropped as soon as she got on the ship. Soolin
was mostly left alone.
> This entire analysis of Cygnus Alpha was well-thought-out
> and so useful, I've kept it for future reference. Thanks, Sue!
Thanks!
Sue
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:30:14 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cygnus Alpha 2/2
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980128081746.19352C-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Pat Patera wrote:
> > when I read Checkers my impression was "here's someone who really
> > despises Jenna."
>
> Not at all. I gave her gobs of ink - nearly half the book! (Tarrant, by
> contrast, got only a few lines.)
Well, Pat, if you spent half the zine bashing Blake that wouldn't
mean you liked him. Space doesn't automatically equal respect or
affection or sympathy.
> I spent a great many hours with Jenna
> while penning that tale. (I can take Tarrant's company for only so
> long.) She's quite a stout companion.
Ahem. Yes, I'm sure she is. Not to beat a dead horse, and I'll
stop after this, but let me try to explain what it was that made me
dislike the zine and think you had only contempt for Jenna. As Julia
said in her post, her reasons for behaving the way she did were cast
as unreasonable spite against Avon when she really would have god
cause to distrust him and want him away from Blake. More than that,
though, her punishments were more damaging and humiliating than
what you put Avon through. Jenna was sexually humiliated in front
of people she had to live and work with on a daily basis. Avon's
suffering happened in front of strangers. When sex was involved
it was at least with someone he'd been attracted to (Servalan) not
some disgusting prison guard. While Avon was ingenious in getting
out of his circumstances, I didn't feel the same could be said of Jenna.
It's been a couple of ears since I read the zine so my grasp of details
isn't as strong as it might be; I can only say that I stongly felt
that Jenna was badly done by.
Surely positioning her as a
> competent adversary for Avon is the highest honor a Disgustingly
> Slavering Avon Fan could bestow on any fanzine adversary? Besides, I let
> her live.
How generous of you. 8-) What I'm saying is that she didn't come
across as a competent adversary; she came across as a jealous bitch. I
felt like there should've been a Moral to the Story tacked onto the end:
That's what the stupid bitch gets for daring to compete with the Great and
Power Avon. As for Disgustingly Slavering Avon Fans...hey, I figure Avon's
Simpering Sycophants has a better ring to it and a better acronym. 8-)
Sue
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:37:05 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980128083536.19352G-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
There's a list of references in Babylon 5, including B7 refs,
at http://www-theory.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaa/B5.Ref.html. It's arranged
by B5 episode and is up to the 4th season, I think.
Sue
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:39:59 EST
From: ShilLance <ShilLance@aol.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Message-ID: <731c18cc.34cf3531@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-01-27 16:53:29 EST, you write:
<< And IMHO B5 is a much *stronger* programme, because unlike B7,
the galaxy of B5 is much better thought out, the plot line(s) are a
helluva lot more intricate, and there is more to the programme than
homosexual overtones and sardonic characters attempting to prove who is
superior to whom (and *yes* I'm talking about AVON).>>
Why is it impossible to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both
programs? It seems this line of thinking also applies when fans discuss B7
and Trek. They are two different animals entirely. I disagree about B5 being
a much stronger program. I believe they are trying to accomplish different
things. The themes underlying each are different.
If all you get from B7 is homosexual overtones (which I've never seen until
brought to my attention, and even then.....) and sardonic characters, then you
missed a lot of good science fiction.
<< As a series, B5 is already superiror to B7 becasue at least they
know what their ending is going to be instead of cheating the veiwers
with a cheap cliffhanger. (Don't get me wrong, I *do* enjoy Blake's 7),
but some of the recent comments on this list re: Babylon-5 are
unwarrented and quite small minded. >>
Can you not see that some of your comments can be interpreted in the same
light? I've always seen B5 as one big morning soap opera in space. B7 may
have been many things, but soap opera it can never be called. besides, I
don't think JMS has the guts to do an ending akin to the one we saw on B7
anyway.
Gwynn Shamlin
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:56:05 +0800
From: Rachel Turner <eturner@cc.curtin.edu.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Unsubscribing
Message-id: <34CF38F4.4F358EAB@alpha1.curtin.edu.au>
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I may be loosing access to this e-mail account soon, how do i get off this
list?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:56:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B5 & B7
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980128143818.28856B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Both shows try to depict a universe of real people, where nice guys
sometime finish last, and wearing a white hat is no guarantee of victory.
I think the big difference is in the writers' attitudes to the world. In
B5 the glass is half-full, but in B7 it is definitely half empty.
I'm often struck by the way many viewers go on about (real or supposed)
similarities between bits of B5 and other SF/fantasy, but hardly anyone
picks up on the many classical allusions, even when they're trailed across
the screen in block capital letters.
Trying desperately to keep this on-topic... every so often people say
"wouldn't it be a good idea if B7 were remade?". I don't think that would
be a good idea. There's precious little good SF made these days, and I'd
much prefer it to be original rather than rehashes of old shows. I mean,
yeah, a big-budget B7 could be very good, but would it really be that much
better than the original? I'd rather see new, intelligent adult SF. Of
course, if it was written by Chris Boucher and starred Gareth Thomas I
certainly wouldn't complain.
Blake's 7 has a unique quality that I love, but I'd rather see Babylon 5
than a glossy new version of a show I already have on tape.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: 28 Jan 1998 08:38:41 -0800
From: "Buck, Courtney" <buck#m#_courtney@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] B5 & B7
Message-ID: <n1326145552.70383@SSDGWY.mdc.com>
>Elbert Girard Rudasill wrote:
>(snip) a lot of well thought out comments
>If this get's me *flamed*. Flame me. But understand something, B5
>*is* a stronger program than B7.
My first inclination was to write a long, tiradal response to this, but, then, I
decided it wasn't worth the effort. After all, what it comes down to is
personal taste and choice. My choice is Blake's 7--and there is no way I'm
going to convice Elbert that, in many ways, B7 *is* a better show than B5.
That doesn't mean I don't appreciate JMS's accomplishment in B5. He created an
exciting, epic story--and I was delighted to see the show become so successful.
I got very involved during the Shadow/Vorlon war but was very disappointed when
it was resolved so soon AND *I* was very disappointed in the resolution itself.
There have never been any characters on B5 that "grabbed" me, so I can't go for
characterization. The only two I *did* find interesting (Marcus & Ivanava) are
no longer there. Well, I do like Bestor also, but he's not there often enough.
Granted B5 has great special effects, fabulous costumes, and a big budget (well,
bigger than B7 had, anyway), it just doesn't work for ME.
Whereas EVERYTHING about Blake's 7 appeals to me. As Pat Fenech said in her
wonderful post recently, when trying to define what is about B7 that is so
endearing...
" All I can say is that there is just something about it, some serendipitous
combination of elements, which created some sort of magic, elements which
I cannot define no matter how much I think about it, but which must be
there. "
Pat Fenech
I *like* B5, I enjoy watching the show...I just don't *love* it.
Courtney
(an AVON fan)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:33:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Neutral Zone
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0128133359-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
I've just been lucky enough to get a dealer's table at the Neutral Zone
(somebody else failed to confirm theirs and I was at the top of the waiting
list)
What I can carry from Dorset to Newcastle is limited - I've done this con
before and I'm convinced my arms grew two inches longer...
This leads to several points.
Firstly, if anyone has anything B7 related that they want to sell at the
Neutral Zone: second-hand stuff, zines, whatever, then I'll probably be
willing to share a corner of the table with you - just ask.
Second - I'll be selling registrations for Redemption. Just find the dealers
table and wave a cheque book at me...
Thirdly - (and this applies especially to anyone not going to Deliverance) if
you want any of my zines, it helps greatly if you let me know in advance
which ones you want. We're taking the car and the whole family to
Deliverance so I can take loads of zines with me. At Neutral Zone, I'm
limited to what I can carry in a suitcase.
Fourth - I'll have a load of Val Westall's original art with me, so if you're
interested in buying any of Val's pictures - then they'll be on the dealer's
table too.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:12:14 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <H_F_Monkhouse@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Peter Mandelson (getting way off-topic)
Message-ID: <199801281412_MC2-3101-1133@compuserve.com>
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Heather wrote, explaining Peter Mandelson:
>If you are British he is the bane of your life!
>He is the puppet master behind the so called
> "new Labour" government. His official title is
>Minister without Portfolio, but he really should
>be called "Minister with all the portfolios, and
>you better believe it mate!" When Mandy says
>"jump" Blair says "Yes oh master, how high
>and in what manner?"
My own suspicion is that Mandelson is a professional scapegoat. His sole
purpose is to attract the opprobrium which would otherwise attach to
everyone else - that's why he doesn't have a specific portfolio, to avoid
the opprobrium focusing on a specific ministry. The eminence noire myth is
essential to this function. But this theory will collapse at any moment,
when Blair does a reshuffle and gives him a proper job.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:50:22 GMT
From: kawm@dove.mtx.net.au (Ken Minne)
To: Jackie <jackiew@termlow.co.uk>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point & Cygnus Alpha
Message-ID: <34d15874.13090445@mail.mtx.net.au>
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Good day all,
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:26:25 -0800, Jackie wrote:
>Duncan wrote:
>>
>> Just a thought but last night while watching Pressure Point, after Blake
>> & Gan teleport down to the rendevous location, they end up in the ruins
>> of a church. Gan says he doesnt know what that is and Blake replies
>> with 'a place of religous assembly' and something along the lines of the
>> federation banning and tearing them down hundereds of years ago.
>>
>> But Gan had already been in a place of religous assembly (or church!) on
>> Cygnus Alpha. Maybe that implant was worse than I thought!!
>>
>> I commend it to the house...
>
>You can`t really compare Vargas` organisation with proper religion.
>With Vargas, you followed him absolutely, or he had you killed. That`s
>not true religion, that`s a dictatorship.
>So I suppose it is natural for Gan to be confused.
>
>Bye for now
>Jackie
>
I disagree with Jackie about comparing Vargas' organisation to a
proper religion. It was prefectly comparable to the Holy Inquisition,
the Taliban ( of Afganistan ) or any number of other loony cults.
They may be barbaric, brutal, deluded and led by a megalomainiac liar,
but none of that ever stops it from being a religion.
Gan had been on the wrong end of a barbaric and brutal Federation
system, so he would have just classed it as another case of the big
guys beating up the little guys.
The mysteries of religion were probably not well taught, if religion
was even mentioned in the Federation school system, especially in the
grades where Gan would have been likely to have gotten his.
Certainly some folk knowledge of religion persisted, enough that
religious words such as hell and damn were retained in the language.
The scattered shards of folk knowledge were probably not enough to
give a convincing picture of the diversity of religion that we know
today. As far as Gan would have been concerned, if the fragments of
religious knowledge he knew did not include "Churches" then the
"Churches" weren't religious.
Somebody might like to try and match views on religion to each of the
crew, for example :
Blake would wobble between moaning about the ignorant and
deluded flock, and the feedom of the flock to be as ignorant and
deluded as their sheperds can make them.
Avon would sneer in contempt at the ignorant, but he did like
Meegat ( evil >;-) ), and would use them where necessary.
Vila would have a deathbed conversion to whatever religion
offered the best in the way of an afterlife. >;-)
Comments anyone?
Could someone sum up the arguements about why Blake
knows enough to recognise the ruined church?
I seem to recall it having come up before.
Enjoy!
Walter Minne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:04:10 -0400
From: Girard Rudasill <egr@pobox.upenn.edu>
To: PATTI McCLELLAN <patti.mcclellan@kyl.com>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blakes 7/Babylon 5
Message-ID: <34CF8F31.10DD@pobox.upenn.edu>
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PATTI McCLELLAN wrote:
>
> Easy now, fellow fen. Lots of people like B5 and lots of people
> like B7. It's not necessary, surely, to engage in wars about which
> one is "better"? I was ecstatic that JMS got B5 on the air -- I
> remember a con when we were told about the proposed show, and that
> it's technial advisor would be -- Harlan (gulp) Ellison. I am still
> delighted that he managed to pull it off. But B7 was my first love
> before B5 and it still is. Nevertheless, I understand those whose
> delight has not waned. How about a compromise -- we won't flame B5
> fans if they don't run B7 down to make B5 look better by comparison.
> Patti
MY GOD ! WHAT IS THAT ! THE VOICE OF REASON !!!!!!
Alright, I'll holster my tongue.
But never forget - I'm quick at the draw 8-)
Just *kidding*. Small joke.
Shall we all get back to buisness, now ?
I have a question, I've heard several people remark on how
"manipulative" Blake is - could some examples please be cited.
The other thing is, I don't quite get the scheme of the galaxy in
Blake's 7. There only seem to be two races (human and Auronar) could
someone please clear that up for me.
Other than that - it was a fun little war, don't you think ? 8-)
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #28
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