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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 282
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Re: Blake & Diversity
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
[B7L] Got a bit confused, sorry
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake & Diversity
[B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
[B7L] Defending Blake's honor
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake & Diversity
[B7L] FS:(US only) Childhood's End audio tape.
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
[B7L] Blake & diversity
------------------------------
Date: 10 Nov 98 15:55:34 America/Fort_Wayne
From: Allison Polise <allisonpolise@usa.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake & Diversity
Message-ID: <19981110155534.614.qmail@www08.netaddress.usa.net>
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Most of the Liberator crew seem to be manipulative, with the exception of
Gan and maybe Jenna. Vila is trying to avoid danger or effort, Blake has his
cause. Avon seems to be the most obvious, but he'd rather threaten or insult.
I could be wrong, I get most of this from reading things by other fans, but
that seems the most likely.
Allison
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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:50:06 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <78fb0efd.36486ebe@aol.com>
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In a message dated 11/10/98 11:33:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
VulcanXYZ@aol.com writes:
<< But I wonder how
much of what he does is to feed his own ego. >>
I'm not sure that feeding his ego is the reason he manipulates as he does.
This is a sometimes unconscious thing for leader types to do, and the line
between prodding and manipulating is sometimes blurry.
I rather think that Blake uses this tool more out of desperation than
anything else. He has managed to survive the Federation's attempts to stop him
twice now, but he has 1 supership, 4-5 eclectic 'followers', and a cranky
smart-mouth computer against the whole array of Federation might. Which is
literally thrown at him. He has a few loose ties to other rebels, but they
have their own agendas and the price of their assistance may be too high to
meet most of the time.
And he's got his revenge-fueled obsession driving him to find ways of
damaging the Federation. To find those ways, and impliment them, he has only
the force of his personality, and those management skills he's accumulated.
Which includes manipulation. That's part of the tragedy of the show, as we
watch him descend into the darkness. He uses what tools he knows best,
deferring the cost of the use, when he might have found other ways of gaining
cooperation. Just as Avon descends into his own "madness" in season 4.
So while I may not like the manipulative Blake we see, I can understand
him. And it's entirely too easy to say Blake was manipulative and leave it at
that. Like the other characters, his is a multi-level one, and the pleasure of
the show is rummaging through those levels. D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:50:10 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Got a bit confused, sorry
Message-ID: <19981110215010.24174.qmail@hotmail.com>
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My apologies to both TigerM and Taina. I can only presume that what I
was doing at work yesterday scrambled my brain, resulting in that mixup.
Of course it was TigerM who responded to my post on characters and
sermons; I don't know...<mutter, mutter, grumble, checks head to see if
screwed on properly today>
Regards
Joanne
I bent
to kiss
a rose
and it
bit me
--Myron Lysenko, "Spring".
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:10:42 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <5584ea61.3648b9e2@aol.com>
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D. Rose wrote:
<< That's part of the tragedy of the show, as we
watch (Blake) descend into the darkness. He uses what tools he knows best,
deferring the cost of the use, when he might have found other ways of gaining
cooperation. Just as Avon descends into his own "madness" in season 4.
So while I may not like the manipulative Blake we see, I can understand
him. And it's entirely too easy to say Blake was manipulative and leave it at
that. Like the other characters, his is a multi-level one, and the pleasure
of
the show is rummaging through those levels. >>
Your post does an excellent explanation of the manipulative Blake. It makes
him seem more human. Thanks!
Gail G.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:19:21 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake & Diversity
Message-ID: <b5e0c370.3648bbe9@aol.com>
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Allison wrote:
<< Avon seems to be the most obvious (manipulator) >>
Avon manipulative? This is an entirely new thought for me. Usually I'm too
busy thinking how good-looking he is! I think I've been just a tad blind. In
what ways do you see him as manipulative?
Perhaps he manipulates people so they will think he is tough and without
feelings. Perhaps his constant bad-humor is a form of this manipulation -- if
he is so unpleasant that no one wants anything to do with him, then he is
safer, doesn't have to take the risks that friendship and love require.
This is a very interesting thought. Thanks.
Gail G.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:33:04 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <19981110223305.20365.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Gail G (I know I'm right this time) said: >Yes, I agree with you. Blake
is >a master manipulator. This is my main problem with him. Of course,
>I'm sure he justifies it, when he admits it to himself at all, by
saying >that it is all for a good cause. But I wonder how much of what
he >does is to feed his own ego. Being a major force, perhaps THE
>major force, in this rebellion, certainly is an ego-booster.
Have you read Sue Clerc's comments about Star One at her web site yet?
The impression that I have (and I could be very wrong) is that Sue is a
little weary of having to defend Blake again and again. Not that she
doesn't have willing helpers, or so I've noticed <smile> My personal
take is that there isn't a lot of room for Blake's ego in his own plans.
Maybe he was more egotistical before he was brainwashed, I don't know.
But the impression I get from "The Way Back" is that of a man
rediscovering his principles and deciding to fight for them, regardless
of what may happen.
Much as I like Avon, I have to admit that I find it more likely that any
dark undercurrents he may be detecting from Blake are just as likely to
be his own projected onto Blake. I recall reading that someone (raise
your hand if you are on the list, whoever you are) thought that Blake
understood Avon better than Avon understood Blake. That, if you like,
could form the basis for manipulating someone. But you could swap the
names in the exchange from "Spacefall" below:
JENNA: Maybe some dreams are worth having.
AVON: You don't really believe that.
JENNA: No, but I'd like to.
and the result is something you'd be hard pressed to get Avon to admit
to, because *his* ego won't let him. Avon tends to gaze inward. Blake
looks outward. So does Servalan, which is why I shake my head when she
says she and Avon are alike. Not that closely, Madam President.
I shall be sorry if Sue finds it impossible to comment on other episodes
of Blake's 7 in future, because I've enjoyed reading what she's had to
say previously, and I've found her comments are good whenever I've
caught myself feeling too sorry for a certain character.
Regards
Joanne
People in glass houses should change their underpants in the dark.
--Kaz Cooke, The Little Book of Crap.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:51:48 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Defending Blake's honor
Message-ID: <1f664fd9.3648c384@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-11-10 17:25:59 EST, Gail wrote:
<< Perhaps he manipulates people so they will think he is tough and without
feelings. Perhaps his constant bad-humor is a form of this manipulation --
if
he is so unpleasant that no one wants anything to do with him, then he is
safer, doesn't have to take the risks that friendship and love require. >>
Avon had a bad habit of sending crew members into traps that he knew were
there (Gold, Volcano) and leaving his allies to go hang (Stardrive). I know,
someone will point out that it was Plaxton or all of them, but what bothered
me was that Avon showed no remorse whatsoever. The others, Tarrant in
particular, at least had the grace to be ashamed.
Blake was honest about his dedication to his cause; he made it clear that
that it was his first priority. If the others wanted to come along for the
ride, they were welcome; if not, they were free to leave. He =was= the one
who disarmed the automatic defense systems on the Liberator, after all. If
one of his crew was in trouble, he would try to help them (Seek-Locate-
Destroy).
Avon's highest priority was himself; this can be seen in many episodes
including Gambit and Orbit. I agree that perhaps his bad temper may be a way
to protect himself emotionally, but it could also be that he just doesn't give
a damn what others think or feel.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:58:38 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake & Diversity
Message-ID: <ce3238b5.3648d32e@aol.com>
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I'm still recovering from Eclecticon, and I have about a week's backlog of e-
mail to read, but I couldn't resist jumping in.
Gail G. said:
> Avon manipulative? This is an entirely new thought for me.
I saw him as manipulative. Let me provide a few examples. In REDEMPTION he
withholds information about Orac's prediction until he can get Blake to ask
for it. Not his most mature moment. He knows Blake is concerned and trying
to learn more about the prediction, then he plays games, dangling carrots
until Blake bites.
In STARDRIVE he tells Vila and Dayna he's sending them to check the place out,
when he's really using them as a way to distract the Space Rats.
Another time is in SARCOPHAGUS. Avon tells Tarrant where to find the Alien.
And while he advises against a headlong charge, it seems pretty clear that
he's really attempting to get Tarrant to do exactly that. Which appears to be
confirmed by his smile after Tarrant takes off. Avon needed someone to keep
the Alien occupied and give him more opportunity to study it, so he
manipulated Tarrant into going after it.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:20:49 -0600
From: "Reuben Herfindahl" <reuben@reuben.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] FS:(US only) Childhood's End audio tape.
Message-Id: <199811110320.VAA04566@athena.host4u.net>
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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I have an extra copy of the BBC production of Childhood's End. Stephen Pacy
does the main anrration in it. It's really quite enjoyable.
I'm asking $5 US plus $1 shipping.
PLease E-mail me if interested.
Reuben
reuben@reuben.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:33:06 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.981111112736.22098C-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> Much as I like Avon, I have to admit that I find it more likely that any
> dark undercurrents he may be detecting from Blake are just as likely to
> be his own projected onto Blake. I recall reading that someone (raise
> your hand if you are on the list, whoever you are) thought that Blake
> understood Avon better than Avon understood Blake.
That'll be me then.
That, if you like,
> could form the basis for manipulating someone.
Blake has an instinctive understanding of people, and that's what mkaes
his so effective at manipulating them (or encouraging them to do the right
thing, if you want to put it more positively). Avon sees exactly what
Blake is up to, but knowing that he is being manipulated does him no good,
since Blake is just so good at it.
Avon doesn't really understand people at all, and I don't think anyone's
put forward a convincing example of him manipulating anybody. He _uses_
people quite often, but that's not the same thing.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:15:24 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <c7dafdcc.36497fdc@aol.com>
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Iain wrote:
> Blake has an instinctive understanding of people,
Actually, I think that makes Blake a bit lazy at times. He goes with his
first instincts--and they are sometimes wrong--when he should be looking
deeper. I wish I were more familiar with 1st-2nd seasons to provide examples
other than in BLAKE.
Blake misunderstands people more than once in that episode. First, there's
Arlen. Then Tarrant. He's able to observe Tarrant for a long time, yet he
doesn't realize that Tarrant is going to try to break free until he does it.
The biggie, of course, is Avon.
> Avon doesn't really understand people at all,
We've had some discussions of that in the Tarrant APA and many of us have come
to the conclusion that "Avon doesn't understand people" is a fannish misnomer.
When someone realizes he/she is different--and Avon is too intelligent not to
realize that he doesn't fit standard molds--he is forced to work harder to
evaluate other people. What Blake takes on instinct, Avon determines by study
and observation. He does it with the same fervor he'd use to examine a
scientific theory. It is very important for Avon not to be at a disadvantage,
so he's trained himself to know people.
Look at the end of CHILDREN OF AURON. Dayna asks, "What about Cally? Do you
think she'll want to go with them?" Without any hesitation Avon answers:
"Cally will stay with us. We are closer to her than they are." He has no
doubt that he understands what Cally will choose.
There's also Avon's immediate answer to Servalan when she offers to rule the
galaxy with him: "Imagination my only limit? I'd be dead in a week."
As you note, Avon knew Blake was manipulating him. He understood Blake. Avon
also understood Tarrant far sooner than Tarrant understood him. Avon knew
exactly what buttons to push to get Tarrant to do what he wanted. Tarrant
honestly believed that Avon's loyalty was suspect until sometime in fourth
season. He believed Avon's words before he came to understand that Avon's
actions were the consistent factor.
Which isn't to say that Avon can't make mistakes about people; no one is
perfect. And he's especially not perfect when he lacks the background to
evaluate a given situation. For instance, in RUMOURS military man Tarrant is
much better at knowing how to gain Grenlee and Servalan's cooperation.
> and I don't think anyone's
> put forward a convincing example of him manipulating anybody. He _uses_
> people quite often, but that's not the same thing.
I'm not sure what the difference is between using people and manipulating
them. If it's a calculated effort to get someone to do something without a
direct order and it succeeds, why isn't that manipulation?
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 98 17:23:58 America/Fort_Wayne
From: Allison Polise <allisonpolise@usa.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Blake & diversity
Message-ID: <19981111172358.496.qmail@www0j.netaddress.usa.net>
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Wow. The insights and ideas are really interesting. Blake does seem to
manipulate people often, but he usually lets them know what they are in for.
Avon also seems to manipulate people, but he seems less careful of
consequences. All in all, I would rather be under Blake's command than
Avon's. Even at the end, Blake seemed a little more careful than Avon.
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End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #282
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