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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 98 : Issue 286

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honour
	 Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honour
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
	 Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honor
	 [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
	 [B7L] sermonising
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
	 Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
	 Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honor
	 [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
	 [B7L] Defending Blake's honor
	 [B7L] Correction
	 [B7L] Re: Childhood's End audio tape
	 [B7L] Re: Vila's Past
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Childhood's End audio tape
	 [B7L] Re: Clive James
	 [B7L] Re: Defending Blake's honour
	 [B7L] Defending Blake
	 Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 19:44:54 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honour
Message-ID: <b9f867ae.364e2406@aol.com>
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In a message dated 11/14/98 7:05:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Fenech@onaustralia.com.au writes:

<< I do
 not believe you can be manipulated if you are aware of the attempt. To my
 mind there is no-one aboard 'Liberator' who can be manipulated.  >>


   While I agree with most of what you've said here, I'll disagree with the
above statement. One can be manipulated even if aware of the attempt; it just
makes the attempt that much harder to succeed. One example from work; "well
guys, I'd bake us a cake tonight(and I'm NOT the domestic type at work,
usually), but I have to go shop for supper too(or insert any other errand of
choice)." They realize I am attempting to manipulate them, but if they want
cake that night, they will do the errand for me while i cook.
   so I think that everyone on the Liberator could be manipulated, even Blake
himself. Blake is the hardest of the lot to affect, because he has fairly few
strings that can be pulled by the others. It's one of the fascinations of the
Avon/Blake relationship; they both are aware of how they can influence each
other, even if they resent it, but neither can nor will stop.
   Which is not to say manipulation is always a bad thing. Manipulating a
lynch mob out of hanging someone is a good thing, and there are other more
personal examples to be had. Just as I've said before, it appears in the 2nd
season, that Blake resorts to manipulation even more than before, as he
becomes increasingly desperate to strike a meaningful blow.             D.
Rose

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:41:48 +1100
From: "Katrina Harkess" <kharkess@mail.usyd.edu.au>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honour
Message-Id: <199811150144.MAA25010@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> 	The point, for me anyway, is that some things simply *must* be opposed
> for their evil is self-evident and unarguable and if it is necessary to
do
> evil so that a greater good may come well perhaps the usual morality does
> not apply? Is there a quote about the armies of evil being legion?
Harriet
> do you remember? Even if there is not then in the context of 'Blakes 7'
it
> is true enough. And Blake is but one against the legions. For me, because
> of this, much of what is considered objectionable in his methods is
> forgivable, for the sake of what he is attempting.

It's never that black and white I fear. Was the Federation truely evil?
There were many suggestions that for the majority of citizens, it wasn't.
It provided food/shelter/clothing/peace [relatively
speaking]/education/stability. Freedom wasn't as limited as it might have
seemed... Remmeber what Servalan said to Dayna about her father moving?
That moving in the Federation was no crime? I'm a great believer in that
the ends do /not/ justify the means. Ever. But sometimes there is no
options, I agree, yet I never saw Blake forced into such a corner.
Especially when what his goals were was no nebulous. He wanted to destroy
the Federation. And then what? Set up a new government? Anarchy? Democracy?
Brand new dictatorship with his as Dictator? He had no coherent goal in
that sense. Which made some of his actions all the more reprehensible at
times. To comment on my own favourite characters; Avon had a very specific
goal. To survive, preferable into his idea of comfort and security. Travis
also seemed to be more focused - both on the immediate of gettign rid of
Blake and the long term or serving the Federation.


> 	As for the manipulative suggestions - well, manipulation suggests, at
> least to my mind, that those on the receiving end are unaware of it. I do
> not believe you can be manipulated if you are aware of the attempt. To my
> mind there is no-one aboard 'Liberator' who can be manipulated. None are
> unintelligent. Gan perhaps is naive, though even this is debatable, but
> none could be maneuvered into doing what they do not want to do by
> manipulation. They, as Avon observes, allow themselves to be led, for
> their own reasons. Just my perception of it. And I cannot see the
> manipulation in 'Trial'. They could have left him.  They choose not to.
We
> are not thinking of a group of naive idealists who might be manipulated
> into feeling sympathy for Blake's dilemma - at least three of the four
are
> tough world-wise cynics, well armed against sentimentality. If they stay
> and save him it is, to my mind anyway, because they choose to, for
> whatever reasons, but not because they have been manipulated into making
> the decision.

/Anyone/  can be manipulated. And one doesn't have to notice or not notice;
as long as it is you being forced into doing somethign by the words/actions
etc of someone else, that person is manipulating you. Or coercing. It
doesn't matter if there were technically, more options. For whatever
reason, the options are not acceptable - and made unacceptable by the
manipulator. Being a cynic doesn't mean one doesn't have feelings/emotions.
Not it the least. 


The pesky one who disagrees.
Katrina.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:50:19 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <364E416B.2A0E@geocities.com>
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Joanne MacQueen wrote:
<snip>
> Much as I like Avon, I have to admit that I find it more likely that any
> dark undercurrents he may be detecting from Blake are just as likely to
> be his own projected onto Blake. 
It's commonly said that the traits we dislike in other people are often
those that we unconsciously dislike in ourselves. That's why we find it
so annoying to observe them expressed in others. Avon probably knows
quite a bit about manipulation. Perhaps he learned it from Sula.

Perhaps he was once idealistic, before life's realities ground him down
to a hard, compressed cold diamond. Perhpas he's still trying to quench
that last flickering flame of idealism in his own heart, and this is why
he finds it so irksome to see it burning brightly still in Blake.

> Avon tends to gaze inward. Blake looks outward. So does Servalan, 
> which is why I shake my head when she says she and Avon are alike.
Would you buy a used car from that woman? 
Never believe a word Servalan says.   :-)

Pat P

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:56:45 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <364E42ED.3637@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Carol McCoy wrote
> There's also Avon's immediate answer to Servalan when she offers to rule the
> galaxy with him: "Imagination my only limit? I'd be dead in a week."

hahahahaha - about my favorite line in the series.

> As you note, Avon knew Blake was manipulating him.  He understood Blake.  Avon
> also understood Tarrant far sooner than Tarrant understood him.  Avon knew
> exactly what buttons to push to get Tarrant to do what he wanted..

I love this analogy: I picture Avon analyzing people as if they were
computers: First experimenting: if I push this button, what happens?
After he identifies the patterns, he begins to "play people." Certainly
his second season button pushing with Blake was blatant enough. After
that practice, it's no wonder he played Tarrant and Vila and Dayna so
well in 3-4 seasons. Soolin? She kept her buttons safely out of sight.
Pat P

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 19:04:55 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honor
Message-ID: <364E44D7.2D5C@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Gail Gawlick wrote:
> re: Tiger M. wrote:
> << Avon's highest priority was himself;  this can be seen in many episodes
>  including Gambit and Orbit.  I agree that perhaps his bad temper may be a way
>  to protect himself emotionally, but it could also be that he just doesn't
> give a damn what others think or feel. >>
> 
> Avon certainly took pains to make everyone think he only cared about himself,
> and yet there were many times he risked all to save his crew. 

I agree with Tiger that Avon simply did not suffer a high degree of
emotional feedback in his brain. I say suffer, for I agree with his
statements about the benefits of acting on logic, not emotional
knee-jerks.

Perhaps his "heroics" were prompted, rather, by a sense of
responsibility. This is the right thing to do, therefore I must do it.
Avon is always true to his own moral code: perhaps it has a core of
responsibility.

re: Horizon poem: Time to Leave
Very nicely done! I quite enjoyed this.
Pat P

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:51:31 +0800
From: "Fleur A Johnstone" <fleur@p086.aone.net.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Message-Id: <199811150606.RAA14333@mail.mel.aone.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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It has been very interesting reading everyone's thoughts about Blake and
Avon today. We all seem to have different views. I guess you could see
Blake as being rather autocratic (maybe this has something to do with his
engineering background, didn't they practice autocratic management systems
back in the 1970's?) and making the decisions, yet having to work with a
team and sway them to his point of view. Some being easier to sway than
others.  But at least he was brave enough to lead them, not Avon (the
smart-thinking follower).

In reply to Allison Polise's point about Blake V Avon, Blake was evasive
in "Pressure Point", and would not call off the mission despite all manner
of things not going to plan. He put the other five at risk, which Avon
would not have done full stop. Remember his classic saying:"I'm not
stupid, I'm not expendible, I'm not going." What do others think? 
-- 
Fleur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:53:03 GMT
From: Roger the Shrubber <powerplay@cheerful.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] sermonising
Message-Id: <199811151753.RAA15969@axis.jeack.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain
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tiger M wrote

Tarrant would probably be doing his military best not to fidget during 
 a sermon, especially a long one, and Dayna would BE fidgeting before it 
 was over, unless they were genuinely intrigued by what the preacher had 
 to say (unlikely, though) :-)  Jenna probably wouldn't have set foot in 
 a church in the first place.  Gan would probably listen with attention, 
 whether or not he agreed;  he struck me as being very polite in that 
 sense.  Orac would probably consider it a waste of his valuable time.
*****
Trooper Par would stand to attention before, during and after the sermon 
until he was told to do otherwise. Travis would just stare and visualise 21 
different ways he could kill the priest. Servalan would walk out after 5 
minutes. Doctor Bellfriar would listen attentively and have a friendly chat 
to the priest afterwards. Dr Plaxton would bring her engine with her. Vila 
would steal the collection plate. The Space Rats would have sex in the pews








___________________________________
 from Darren r ..... Comments are welcome !
powerplay@cheerful.com
____________________________________
Unprotectedness, nakedness, unsuccored suffering, and the awfulness of
death are the prospects that man without illusions must face.
______________________________________
Man, if he is sensible, separates himself from nature and becomes 
its master and conqueror.
________________________________________
________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634
Anxiety & Panic
_________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html
Blake's 7 FAQ & free screen savers

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:15:03 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <taina@netspace.net.au>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <007501be1080$fa9e01b0$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Pat P wrote about Avon:

>Perhaps he was once idealistic, before life's realities ground him down
>to a hard, compressed cold diamond. Perhpas he's still trying to quench
>that last flickering flame of idealism in his own heart, and this is why
>he finds it so irksome to see it burning brightly still in Blake.


I see Avon very much as having been idealistic once. I think that if he had
always been cynical, he wouldn't feel the need to protest so much about
idealism.

Taina
===========================
Is there a mind/body problem?
And if so, which is it better to have?
- Woody Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:49:10 -0000
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <J.Beavan@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Message-Id: <E0zf8MD-0000kt-00@tantalum>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> He put the other five at risk, which Avon
> would not have done full stop.

This is the same Avon who tried to persuade the others to dump Blake 
several times, who put the rest of the crew at risk in Rumors of death, 
to go on his own guilt trip, who used Tarrant as bait, who tried to murder
Vila, etc etc?

Jennifer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:53:33 -0000
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <J.Beavan@btinternet.com>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honor
Message-Id: <E0zf8MF-0000kt-00@tantalum>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> 
>     He did what he
> could to minimize the risk to the others, barrng the cloud factor. Had he
not
> been concerned, he could have told them, knowing they would back his
play, but
> putting themselves into what he considered unacceptable danger.(There are
> hints he expected to die on Terminal).

Or he could have told them and invited their help to think of alternatives.
But he never did think straight where Blake was concerned.

>    Besides, you imply Blake was more important than the others. Nonsense!
What
> more could he want than Vila and Cally?<G>         

Giggle. Someone to lean on, a scapegoat, someone he was vulnerable to, who
could make him be more than the Avon he thought he was etc etc!

Jennifer  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:48:14 EST
From: SuzanThoms@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Message-ID: <53a426bb.364f3e0e@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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<< Jennifer writes:

   <<< He put the other five at risk, which Avon would not have done 
      full stop.  >>>

<< This is the same Avon who tried to persuade the others to dump 
Blake  several times,  >>

Only in the beginning, when they first met...when Avon really was a cynical,
self-serving, uncaring loner; but by second season Avon had begun to change
(much to his chagrin).

<< who put the rest of the crew at risk in Rumors of death, 
to go on his own guilt trip, >>

In another post you recently condemned Avon for NOT taking the crew into his
confidence in "Terminal" -- in "RoD" that's exactly what he did, and you still
condemn him.  Poor Avon, he just can't win.

Avon was not the only one to put the crew at risk for personal purposes.  They
went to Auron for Cally.  They went to Teal for Tarrant.  

<< who used Tarrant as bait, >>

I never saw Tarrant as stupid.  I don't think Tarrant was unaware of what Avon
was doing.  But Tarrant was fighting for survival like the rest of them and
took the risks that were necessary.  And, as someone else pointed out, Avon
expected them to be able to take care of themselves.

<< who tried to murder Vila, etc etc? >>

Uh...everyone's entitled to a bad day.

Besides, I just read "Battle at the Edge of the World"  NOW I know why Avon
was acting the way he was.  :)  

Suzanne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:53:31 EST
From: SuzanThoms@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Defending Blake's honor
Message-ID: <4e46803d.364f3f4b@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 11/15/98 12:04:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
J.Beavan@btinternet.com writes:

<< Giggle. Someone to lean on, a scapegoat, someone he was vulnerable 
to, who could make him be more than the Avon he thought he was etc 
etc! >>

This is lovely.  A perfect description of Avon by second season.

Suzanne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:25:29 EST
From: SuzanThoms@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Correction
Message-ID: <898d75fc.364f46c9@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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<< Besides, I just read "Battle at the Edge of the World"  NOW I know 
why Avon was acting the way he was.  :)  >>

Whoops!!!  That should be "Last Stand at the Edge of the World"

Sorry Annie and Leah.  I really DO know the title of this story.  They were
advertising "Battle Beyond the Stars" on TV when I sent this out...I guess I
picked up part of that title.  

Suzanne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:30:47 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Childhood's End audio tape
Message-ID: <19981115213047.8943.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Carol wrote:
>I highly recommend this radio adaptation.

I wonder why? <big, big grin>

Actually, Carol, nice report of your trip to Britain on Judith's 
website, although the electronic equivalent of drool can be a little 
disconcerting during the theatre reports <smile>

Regards
Joanne


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:50:43 -0500
From: natlyn@mindspring.com (Natalie Barnes)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Vila's Past
Message-Id: <v01540b01b272a3043eec@[209.86.79.221]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Some of those lockpicking skills could not be learned by trial and error.  Who
>could have trained Vila, and how?  I could see him spying on someone -else-
>learning these things, but why would they be learning?
>Allison


These are all excellent questions that I too would like to know the answers
to. Surely, someone in all the years of B7 fandom has answered these
questions in a story. Sarah? Do you remember any?

Natalie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:32:58 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Childhood's End audio tape
Message-ID: <5c490336.364f569a@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Joanne wrote:

>  Actually, Carol, nice report of your trip to Britain on Judith's 
>  website,

Thank you. 

> although the electronic equivalent of drool can be a little 
>  disconcerting during the theatre reports <smile>

Actually, that was the dehumidified version.  In its raw form, my
recollections of the play can rust flatware at twenty paces. ;-)

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 22:36:54 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Clive James
Message-ID: <364F4967.FD040FF6@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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Steve T said: "Did anyone else notice that the credits to the new Clive
James on TV
program (UK - Channel 3 Wed:11/11/1998 10:40) contained a Blakes 7 clip
of Tarrant?  Given that this program looks at particular genres of TV
each week it might mean that one of them will be a SF theme and he will
be taking the **** out of B7!"

Now that would fit with what I heard at a one-day Dr Who event on
Saturday. They had a panel of the female companions, and three of them
said they had recorded a Clive James show that's due out in about a
week. They were a little annoyed that he was taking the piss a bit too
much and weren't that looking forward to seeing the finished product.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson

Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell"
Star Wars

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 18:09:58 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Defending Blake's honour
Message-ID: <199811151810_MC2-605F-4662@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Pat wrote:
>Is there a quote about the armies of evil being 
>legion? Harriet do you remember?

Probably, but I don't at the moment - can't see it in my Dictionary of
Quotations, or in Cruden's Concordance (legion sounding a bit AV Biblical).
 Can anyone else identify it?
Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:19:12 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Defending Blake
Message-ID: <e8f4726f.364f6f80@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-11-14 20:45:10 EST, Katrina wrote:

<< It's never that black and white I fear. Was the Federation truely evil?
 There were many suggestions that for the majority of citizens, it wasn't.
 It provided food/shelter/clothing/peace [relatively
 speaking]/education/stability. Freedom wasn't as limited as it might have
 seemed... Remmeber what Servalan said to Dayna about her father moving?
 That moving in the Federation was no crime? I'm a great believer in that
 the ends do /not/ justify the means. >>

This is only my opinion and is not intended to be disrespectful of or discount
anyone else's:

I agree that the ends do not justify the means, but I do think Blake was in a
=very= tight corner.  He was one person with limited resources.  His chances
of success were marginal at best, but at least he had the guts to try.  The
situation isn't cut and dried;  one of the things I like about B7.:-) 

Was the Federation evil?  I think so.  It drugged the people so they wouldn't
rebel (The Way Back, pylene 50 program).  It turned people into mutoids.  It
routinely tortured its citizens (Horizon, Rumours of Death, etc.).  It let
Travis go unpunished for massacres until it was expedient to try him.  It had
an active policy of conquest and invasion of foreign powers (Death-Watch,
Traitor, Horizon, etc.).  It massacred peaceful demonstrators and allowed no
dissent of any kind.

The Federation seems to be the kind of place where people disappear off the
street, are never heard from again and no one dares to question it.  I have a
friend who grew up in Russia when Stalin was in power;  the Federation reminds
me very much of her stories.  I know it isn't a place where I would want to
live.  Yes, the population is fed and clothed, etc., but they are paying a
high price for that security.. I guess it boils down to the question of
freedom vs. security and what they are worth.

This brings up a different topic:  what kind of situation would have led to
the formation of a government like the Federation?  My own take on this
subject is a combination of war, plague and natural disaster led to great
political upheaval and the formation of something nasty.   Perhaps an
earthquake on the New Madrid fault triggered an eruption of the Yellowstone
caldera (we are about due for another one).  Bye-bye, North America.  The ash
and dust, etc. from the eruption would cause widespread crop failure and
famine (a bit like nuclear winter).  Meanwhile, some terrorist decides to
loose a lethal virus in a major city like Paris or Tokyo. . . 

Any comments or other ideas?

Tiger M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:46:15 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Message-ID: <d40cb245.364f75d7@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-11-15 15:50:27 EST, you write:

<< Avon was not the only one to put the crew at risk for personal purposes.
They
 went to Auron for Cally.  They went to Teal for Tarrant.  
  >>

As I recall, Avon objected strenuously to going to Auron and they went to Teal
for a vacation that everyone needed.  Thye got involved in the conflict at
least partly because the Federation would have taken over both the United
Planets of Teal and the Vandor Confederacy if they didn't.

Tiger M

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End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #286
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