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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 287
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Re: [B7L] Re: Defending Blake's honour
Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honour
Re [B7L] Vila's past
[B7L] Sermonising
Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
[B7L] Re: Defending Blake, etc.
[B7L] The Crucible
[B7L] The evil empire? was 'Defending Blake'
[B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
[B7L] HORIZON NEWSFLASH
Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Re: [B7L] sermonising
[B7L] OT - Hey Sydney/NSW folk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:39:44 EST
From: SuzanThoms@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Message-ID: <5b9af22c.364f8260@aol.com>
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In a message dated 11/15/98 4:48:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Tigerm1019@aol.com writes:
<< As I recall, Avon objected strenuously to going to Auron
That's true. But the only point I was making is that they have put themselves
at risk for each other, not just for Avon (or because of Avon) as the original
post suggested.
>> and they went to Teal for a vacation that everyone needed. Thye got
involved in the conflict at least partly because the Federation would
have taken over both the United Planets of Teal and the Vandor
Confederacy if they didn't. >>
This is all true. But my point here is that they got involved because of/and
for Tarrant.
Suzanne
(defending Avon to the death)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:47:00 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Defending Blake's honour
Message-Id: <199811160144.TAA21695@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
>Probably, but I don't at the moment - can't see it in my Dictionary of
>Quotations, or in Cruden's Concordance (legion sounding a bit AV Biblical).
> Can anyone else identify it?
The only thing I can think of which might relate is "My name is Legion, for
we are many", which I think referred to evil spirits rather than armies.
Biblical, Mark 5:9 according to Bartlett's.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:56:36 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Defending Blake's honour
Message-ID: <000301be1104$cd752360$a018ac3e@default>
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On 15/11/98 Katrina Harkess wrote:
>He [Blake] wanted to destroy
>the Federation. And then what? Set up a new government? Anarchy? Democracy?
>Brand new dictatorship with his as Dictator? He had no coherent goal in
>that sense. Which made some of his actions all the more reprehensible at
>times.
Truer, I think, to say that Blake appears to have no coherent goal, because
the series grossly neglected the political landscape of the B7 universe. It
was the Federation in one corner, and everyone else in the other. Too
simple, especially for a series that was intrinsically political in its
initial concept.
I once argued in AltaZine that Blake attracts a lot of antipathy because he
represents political ideas (Communism, Anarchism, whatever) that disturb
many fans. Not that I think Terry Nation or any other of the script writers
(except possibly Chris Boucher) seriously equated Blake with genuine
revolutionism of that kind. For Blake's cause to have made real sense, the
writers should have tried to create a more meaningful political topography
for the series, preferably not readily analogous to the left/right spectrum
that dominates our real world political consciousness. A few years ago I
sketched out some ideas for a B7 rolegame I was working one, and came up
with two intersecting axes:
a) Centralist/Autonomist - rule of many worlds by one vs planetary
independence
b) Monoist/Pluralist - one prevailing ideological doctrine vs many.
This gives four broad regions of political allegiance. The federation would
be Monoist/Centralist. Blake could fall into any of the other three:
a) Pluralist/Centralist - a kind of 'nice Federation', ruling in the
interests of all its disparate citizens.
b) Pluralist/Autonomist -every planet for itself.
c) Monoist/Autonomist - every world happily adopting the same
enlightened attitude (like the more rose-tinted Marxist visions).
I'd appreciate comments/input from those who know more about these things
than I do. (Murray?)
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:17:54 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re [B7L] Vila's past
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When the question first arose, as to where Vila learned his skills, I
immediately thought of the various penal institutions he refers to having
passed through at various times ('colleges of crime' and all that). Then I
recalled that he told Pella that he was technical advisor for the escape
from CF-1. It seems that he might have been largely self-taught. (Note too
that he refers to CF-1 as an 'academy' - maybe that's exactly what it was to
the inmates...)
Another thing - when he first boarded Liberator he had nothing but the
clothes he was standing in, but by Seek-Locate-Destroy he had a whole picnic
cool-box of thieving tools (his 'box of tricks'). Did he build these
himself?
I don't think it's going too far to suggest that Vila may have been a
supremely competent technician, albeit in a limited field. If so, it's
certainly something that Avon would recognise and respect, whatever he
thought of Vila as a whole. But Vila's expertise would be goal-directed,
and he would have trouble applying it to other areas. This lack of a
broader theoretical understanding would have Avon tearing his hair out in
despair.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:18:35 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Sermonising
Message-ID: <19981116031835.16245.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>Servalan would walk out after 5 minutes.
Don't you mean that she'd walk out and leave her minions to deal with
the threat of the collection plate?
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:19:22 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Message-ID: <39bff7db.364fb5da@aol.com>
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In a message dated 11/15/98 7:48:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Tigerm1019@aol.com writes:
<< As I recall, Avon objected strenuously to going to Auron and they went to
Teal
for a vacation that everyone needed. >>
I can agree with the Teal statement, but I think the word strenously is a bit
strong. Avon did voice disagreement, but his whole look during the exchanges
is troubled, and he takes Tarrant's rebuke without snapping back. And once the
decision was made to go, he pulled his full weight, risking his life along
with the others despite his suspicion about the situation. Nor do we see him
giving any "I told you so" speeches at the end. He even comes through with a
bit of thoughtfullness for their unintended passengers. D. Rose
"Always ready to praise Avon, even at the risk of provoking the Godmother."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 06:06:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Defending Blake, etc.
Message-Id: <199811160625.GAA25040@rock103.genie.net>
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Deborah R. said:
> Which is not to say manipulation is always a bad thing. Manipulating a
>lynch mob out of hanging someone is a good thing, and there are other more
>personal examples to be had. Just as I've said before, it appears in the
>2nd season, that Blake resorts to manipulation even more than before, as he
>becomes increasingly desperate to strike a meaningful blow.
Yes, I agree strongly that manipulation is not necessarily a bad thing. I
was very struck by a comment some time ago in =Rallying Call=, the Blake
apa, that Blake is manipulative because he has to be-- he's not a military
officer with a formal structure to back up his orders, but must persuade his
crew to obey him in whatever way he can. So of course, the more desperate
he is, the more he will use the necessary techniques.
Fleur said:
>I guess you could see
>Blake as being rather autocratic (maybe this has something to do with his
>engineering background, didn't they practice autocratic management systems
>back in the 1970's?) and making the decisions, yet having to work with a
>team and sway them to his point of view.
Interesting idea about a possible relationship between Blake's leadership
style and his engineering background!
>In reply to Allison Polise's point about Blake V Avon, Blake was evasive
>in "Pressure Point", and would not call off the mission despite all manner
>of things not going to plan. He put the other five at risk, which Avon
>would not have done full stop. Remember his classic saying:"I'm not
>stupid, I'm not expendible, I'm not going." What do others think?
Perhaps we could compare Blake in "Pressure Point" to Avon in "Terminal."
Avon is also very secretive, with disastrous results; but he tries to do it
by himself, explicitly warning off the others.
And in both cases, the desired goal turns out to be an illusion, and a
terrible price is paid. A very interesting parallel.
Natalie asked about Vila's past, and what has been suggested in fan fiction.
I blush to admit that I can't remember clearly. I know that Rosemary
Woodhouse wrote a number of stories about Vila's childhood-- the "Young
VIla" series published in =Chronicles= and other zines-- but I can't
remember what she hypothesized about how he learned his skills.
I always thought, myself, that Vila may have had some experience with the
Terra Nostra. He seemed to have a healthy respect for them.
Carol responded to Joanne and said:
>> Actually, Carol, nice report of your trip to Britain on Judith's
>> website, although the electronic equivalent of drool can be a little
>> disconcerting during the theatre reports <smile>
>
>Actually, that was the dehumidified version. In its raw form, my
>recollections of the play can rust flatware at twenty paces. ;-)
I did wonder! I haven't checked Judith's website recently, but I did see
the unexpurgated version of the report in the Tarrant apa, and my first
reaction to Joanne's post was "You put =that= on a website?!!"
But having been exposed to the same stimulus myself (happy sigh of
recollection), I can only concur with everything Carol said, in whatever
form.
Re: the armies of evil being legion, there's something in one of the
Gospels (Matthew or Mark, I think) about Jesus casting out a demon or demons
who is/are possessing a man. He asks the possessing demon what its name is,
and it says "My name is legion," meaning, presumably, there are a lot of me.
Could this be what you are thinking of? As Harriet said, it definitely
sound Biblical. (Come to think of it, is that maybe the Gadarene swine
story??)
Tiger M. said:
>I agree that the ends do not justify the means, but I do think Blake was in
>a =very= tight corner. He was one person with limited resources. His
>chances of success were marginal at best, but at least he had the guts to
>try. The situation isn't cut and dried; one of the things I like about
>B7.:-)
Yes, yes! Often fan fiction tries to disambiguate the situation and make it
simpler, but IMO that's kind of missing the point.
Re: the evil of the Federation, one theory is that they were originally not
so bad, but have become very oppressive in just the past few decades due to
the horrendous expense of building the defense system at Star One! (I
forget whose idea this was-- maybe Neil?) Shades of the First Emperor
building the Great Wall and making the empire safe from invasion, but at a
terrible personal cost to his subjects.
>This brings up a different topic: what kind of situation would have led to
>the formation of a government like the Federation? My own take on this
>subject is a combination of war, plague and natural disaster led to great
>political upheaval and the formation of something nasty. Perhaps an
>earthquake on the New Madrid fault triggered an eruption of the Yellowstone
>caldera (we are about due for another one). Bye-bye, North America. The
>ash and dust, etc. from the eruption would cause widespread crop failure
>and famine (a bit like nuclear winter). Meanwhile, some terrorist decides
>to loose a lethal virus in a major city like Paris or Tokyo. . .
Ooh, scary ideas, but very plausible. I remember reading a fan story in
which Avon, after GP, somehow travels back in time to the 20th C. and
becomes involved with a woman there (er, here). What really got me was a
scene in which he is conversing with her and says something to the effect of
"The disaster that you are so afraid of will happen, but it won't be for
another few centuries and it won't be in the way that you expect." In other
words, not a nuclear war, the most obvious scary thing. But maybe some sort
of combined natural/ecological disaster, as you suggest.
Um, sorry the last couple of posts have been so long. If this is a problem,
I can break them into smaller ones. But the last few digests have just been
so full of interesting things to reply to!
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:12:57 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Space City <Space-city@world.std.com>
cc: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] The Crucible
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1115191257-339Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Caught up with 'The Crucible' again in Darlington. It's a long way from home,
but it gave me a good excuse to catch up with Chris, Val and Julia. As an added
bonus, Nichola Collie who's over from New Zealand was there as well.
The play's improved since I originally saw it. It was good to start with, but
the timing on action scenes is far better now and the girls have improved
greatly. The courtroom scene where the girls are having group hysterics is
extremely powerful.
There's also been a slight change to the last scene in the interaction between
John and Elizabeth Proctor which increased its impact for me.
Some of the cast (including Gareth) were very good from the start. Now, I'd
have to compliment the entire cast. It's a large cast too. It actually gives
you hope for the survival of live theatre when you see a play with a cast this
size (ie. expensive to produce) playing to full houses. Gareth said that they
actually had to do one more night than was originally planned at Darlington
because the advance bookings were so good. The play has apparantly been getting
excellent reviews.
The actress playing Rebecca Nurse didn't feel quite right (she didn't convey the
right impression of age and infirmity though she had the personality about
right. However, a note tucked into the programme stated that the role was being
undertaken by a different actress from usual, so I can't really hold that
against them.)
We met up with Gareth and he was his usual delightful self. I've decided that
he looks very nice in a green waistcoat. I can't remember much of what we
talked about, but it strikes me that life on tour must be a very odd kind of
existence. "It's Friday so this must be Darlington", is only just a joke.
The play is now moving onto Norwich (17-21st November at the Theatre Royal
01603 630000) and then Woking (23-28 November - New Victoria Theatre 01483
761144)
Go and see it if you're able.
The evening we saw it, the audience were completely silent after the play
finished. They only started applauding when the cast came back to take their
bows. That's how powerful an impact it leaves.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 04:24:10 +1100
From: "Afenech" <Fenech@onaustralia.com.au>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] The evil empire? was 'Defending Blake'
Message-Id: <19161662550572@domain4.bigpond.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In a message dated 98-11-14 20:45:10 EST, Katrina wrote:
<< It's never that black and white I fear. Was the Federation truely evil?
There were many suggestions that for the majority of citizens, it wasn't.
It provided food/shelter/clothing/peace [relatively
speaking]/education/stability. Freedom wasn't as limited as it might have
seemed... Remmeber what Servalan said to Dayna about her father moving?
That moving in the Federation was no crime?>>
My recollection is that we saw very little of 'the majority' of the
citizenry of the Federation - the few collections we did see going about
their everyday lives were the oh so tranquil lot in the corridors of the
dome in 'The way back' and the zombified ones providing target practice
for the troopers in 'Traitor'. True enough they had clothing and did not
look malnourished... but they did look tranquilised. For no other reason
than the fact that the Federation used mind alteration to control its
citizens it deserves to be known as evil, in my opinion.
But there is so much more. It shoots down unarmed civilians who have
surrendered. It pratices genocide - Auron, Saurian Major, Horizon. It
subjects captive populations to rule by terror - Albian. It's leaders sit
around discussing whether or not to rid themselves of a political opponent
by killing him and decide instead that it suits their purposes better to
destroy his credibility with the most ugly of false accusations.
There is a line from an episode of 'The Simpsons' which seems apt -
'Sure we have order but at what price?'
And there is evidence within the stories that Blake's fight was not
disregarded by the ordinary citizenry, nor disapproved of. Just one
example is the following exchange :
JOBAN: Some members of the council are concerned that many of our citizens
now know of Blake's activities, and those of the renegade Travis.
SERVALAN: But there have been no public spacecasts on either Travis or
Blake.
JOBAN: People talk, Servalan. There's no way of stopping them.
SERVALAN: This is a major breach of security. The punishment is total.
Who are these people who have been talking? I want their names,
Councillor.
JOBAN: All sorts of citizens from Alphas to labor grades know of Blake's
defiance of the Federation. They talk of him as a sort of... hero, many
of them.
SERVALAN: What rubbish.
JOBAN: His men impede progress, and more importantly order. Order,
Servalan, it is all that matters.
SERVALAN: I do not need you to remind me of that...
JOBAN: The council ask, "Where is Blake's head?" and we've no answer.
SERVALAN: You shall have it.
JOBAN: The answer, or his head?
SERVALAN: Both.
JOBAN: Good. I would not like to think I might have been wrong in my
choice.
If the citizenry were content with their lot then Federation's concern
about Blake's activities seems rather an overreation. That they practice
mind control and react with such alarm to a focal point for discontent
suggests, to me, that they did not feel that the majority of their
citizens considered their governance benevolent.
Pat Fenech
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:33:44 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity
Message-ID: <199811161333_MC2-606E-3922@compuserve.com>
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Pat Patera wrote:
>Perhaps he was once idealistic, before life's realities
>ground him down to a hard, compressed cold diamond.
Every cynic is a bruised romantic (and if anyone can place that quote for
me, heard once during an interview with Robbie Coltrane - my top choice for
recasting Avon - I'll be eternally grateful).
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:38:07 +0000
From: JMR <jager@clara.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] HORIZON NEWSFLASH
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19981116213807.00754560@mail.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
HORIZON AND AVON CLUB NEWSFLASH - Monday 16th November
PAUL DARROW - yes, it's confirmed - The Avon Club and Horizon are
delighted to announce that Paul WILL be returning to star as Captain
Samuel Vimes in a 1999 UK tour of Terry Pratchett's GUARDS! GUARDS!
Confirmed tour dates are: Opening 18/21 January 99, then also the week
commencing 24th January at the Mercury Theatre, Colchester (BO 01206
573948). W/C 1st February - Theatre Royal, Brighton (BO 01273 328488);
W/C 8th February - Wimbledon Theatre, Wimbledon, London SW19 (BO 0181
540 0362); W/C 15th February - Belgrade Theatre, Coventry (BO 01203
553055); W/C 22nd February - Civic Theatre, Darlington (BO 01325
486555); W/C 1st March - Grand Theatre, Swansea (BO 01792 475715).
Hopefully more dates will be confirmed soon and will be posted on the
Avon and Horizon websites, and on this list. Please remember, sometimes
tour dates/venues change so do check with the theatre before planning
your trip!
AVON and HORIZON are planning 2 Special Group 'Parties' at the Brighton
and Wimbledon venues for club members (though if there is space non-club
members will be welcome too) with some very special Incentives. Which
day of those weeks it will be, and exactly what is on offer hasn't yet
been finalised (tour dates have only recently been confirmed) so send an
SAE to Ann Bown, 37a Byfleet Avenue, Old Basing, Basingstoke, Hants.
RG24 7HR or to Diane Gies, 18 Holt Road, North Wembley, Middx. HAO 3PS
marked GUARDS! GUARDS! Group Outing and you'll be sent info when it is
sorted out. Or regularly check the Avon club website or the Horizon
club website (news section, cast news, Paul Darrow) for up to date info.
<http://www.horizon.org.uk>
J.M. Rolls
jager@clara.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:51:04 -0000
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <J.Beavan@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake V Avon Leadership
Message-Id: <E0zfWsm-0004bv-00@neodymium.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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>
> Only in the beginning, when they first met...when Avon really was a
cynical,
> self-serving, uncaring loner; but by second season Avon had begun to
change
> (much to his chagrin).
Like in Gambit or Trial?
>
> << who put the rest of the crew at risk in Rumors of death,
> to go on his own guilt trip, >>
>
> In another post you recently condemned Avon for NOT taking the crew into
his
> confidence in "Terminal" -- in "RoD" that's exactly what he did, and you
still
> condemn him. Poor Avon, he just can't win.
>
> Avon was not the only one to put the crew at risk for personal purposes.
They
> went to Auron for Cally. They went to Teal for Tarrant.
To save living beings, not for pointless vengeance over a dead woman.
> Besides, I just read "Battle at the Edge of the World" NOW I know why
Avon
> was acting the way he was. :)
City - Terrific writing but my unfavourite theme of cop out Avon - poor
baby wasn't responsible for anything bad he did.
I LOVE Avon (and Blake-Avon in particular) but he wasn't the loving,
trusting, caring brilliant leader of so much fanfic.
Jennifer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:11:31 -0000
From: "Dangermouse" <master@sol.co.uk>
To: "Roger the Shrubber" <powerplay@cheerful.com>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] sermonising
Message-Id: <199811162316.XAA03804@gnasher.sol.co.uk>
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Avon, being the smartest, would of course find an excuse to shoot the
priest and blow up the church, while Vila stole the collection plate and
poorbox.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:53:32 +1100 (EST)
From: Lisa Darby <Lisa.Darby@anu.edu.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: space-city@world.std.com
Subject: [B7L] OT - Hey Sydney/NSW folk
Message-Id: <199811170553.QAA29835@anugpo.anu.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi everybody
I shall be attending a conference in Sydney, January 19-21 next year. I
think it would be really nice to meet some fellow listers while I'm there,
so how about it? Anybody game for a get-together over dinner?
Actually if anybody is a library type person and is attending the same
conference (Online/On Disk) I'd love to meet you too.
Cheers
Lisa
Lisa Darby
Librarian
North Australia Research Unit
PO Box 41321
Casuarina NT 0811
Australia
lisa.darby@anu.edu.au
Ph : +61 8 89220031
Fax : +61 8 89220055
http://online.anu.edu.au/naru/welcome.htm
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #287
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