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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 44
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
[B7L] Re: Where are people?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
[B7L] RE: Location, location, location
Re: [B7L] On My Mind
Re: [B7L] On My Mind
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
[B7L] FYI, more about Monkey
[B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant
Re: [B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant
Re: [B7L] authors and such
Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting
Re: [B7L] Avon's morals
Re: [B7L] Avon's morals
Re: [B7L] On My Mind
Re: [B7L] Tarrant
[B7L] Cross-overs
Re: [B7L] Avon's morals
[B7L] Various stuff
[B7L] LOTR
Re: [B7L] On My Mind
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:24:54 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <199802120024.TAA00493@yfn.ysu.edu>
Ack, if volume continues at this rate, I'm going to have to switch
this list to a different ISP. I keep getting "WARNING: you are
over quota" notices.
In the interest of keeping my mail level within acceptable limits
I'm going to throw out some brief comments on several posts here.
Lorna B. wrote:
>And that's a big part of a lot of the Avon-Tarrant jockeying for position
>(minds out of the gutter, slash fans!).
Oh sure, tempt us with slashy images then tell us we can't play.
<pout> ;-)
Nicole and Lorna, great posts. Very insightful. I agree, of course,
that Tarrant wasn't overly enthusiastic to be leader. If he had
had such ambitions, he wouldn't have fallen so easily and comfortably
into second in command when Avon started making decisions. It's not
as if Tarrant was a shy wallflower. If he had really wanted command,
he'd have continued to push for that position. He would have taken
advantage of Avon when he was down (Rumours, Terminal) instead of
being supportive of him.
Niccola, quite agree about the dazzle of those "pearly whites," and
they are even more devastating in person. I can't understand why
Avon, Vila, Cally, Dayna and Soolin weren't tripping over each
other in a rush to Tarrant's bed. (There I go slipping into the
gutter again. :)
Great plan to expose Tom to the toothy one until he (Tom)
begs for mercy. We'll have to work on the logistics.
D. Rose, enjoyed your posts. How true that the series wouldn't have
been half as interesting if our resident rebels hadn't come complete
with warts. I liked to see their human sides, maybe because it's far
easier for me to identify with flaws than with virtues. <g>
I agree that Tarrant could have very easily charged off to the
rescue in "Horizon" without much planning and possibly ended up
eating mush and mining with the other. And possibly knowing he
didn't have Avon for back-up (this is assuming Avon wasn't there),
he might have been more cautious. As I noted in an earlier post,
Tarrant tightened his own reins when Avon was the one charging into
the Valley of Death. Kind of cute that. As long as Tarrant knew
Avon was there to pull him out of hot water, Tarrant felt he could
be reckless. Though I think that would have to have been a sub-
conscious behavior on Tarrant's part, because it wasn't
until well into fourth series that Tarrant's conscious
mind accepted that Avon would rescue him. Until then, he bought into
Avon's stance of not caring about the fate of his shipmates. (Not
unexpected that someone as forthright as Tarrant would assume that
Avon was being equally forthright.) For instance, in "Rescue"
Tarrant is surprised that Avon came back for him.
G. Robbins (this is all from memory, and I hope I'm getting the right
names with the right posts), interesting question about how the
crew would have interacted if reunited with Blake and/or Jenna and
"Blake" had all been a dream. There are some PGPs out there that
twist events in "Blake" so that the shooting didn't happen, and that
allows a more peaceable reunion. I've not had a chance to speculate
on that possibility myself, I'm still trying to work out how they
would get on leaving the episode "Blake" intact and having them
all survive. I'm especially happy you mentioned Jenna. She often
seems to be the forgotten person when it comes to returns and
resurrections. I would enjoy more AUs where she is reunited with the
fourth or third season crew. There have been some good PGPs where
she got to show the strength one would expect from a smuggler lady.
Carol McCoy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:04:21 -0600
From: Jason Brittain <elis@inav.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Where are people?
Message-ID: <34E258A4.66A239AF@inav.net>
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> >Jenni posted to list asking about B7 fans living near Altringham in
> the hope
> >of meeting up with people while she as there training.
> >
> >As a newcomer, I'd also be interested to know where people are based,
> with a
> >view to meeting up at some future date.
As newcomers are chiming in, I'll toss my hat into the ring on this as
well.
I'm from out in the States.. in Iowa of all places.
The local PBS station started showing Blake's 7 around last July or so,
and I've been a fan since the first show.
- Jason
"If you work very hard, someday you'll be able to
write such illogical things too."-Miyoshi Shoraku
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:01:06 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <34E265F2.7094@jps.net>
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>
> I didn't see that either Blake or Tarrant confirmed to the morals
> of society. You have to remember that their society isn't our
> society. Tarrant is a sore thumb hero in the Federation universe.
> He has his own set of moral values and won't be bullied or mocked
> into changing them. His world is a horrible place where
> nastiness abounds, but he continually behaves as if that weren't
> the case.
You can ignore me if you want, but I will explain; the Blake's 7
characters tend to be arcetypes. Vila = the Artful Dodger type, the
mischevious but loveable fellow whose strangths lie in his personlity
and cleverness. Blake is a leader hero; a Robin Hood, a Charlemagne, an
Arthur. Cally and Dayna were Dianas, huntress women. Cally was also the
mystic, the witch-woman. Jenna is an outlaw queen, I suppose, there's
fewer of those in literature, but she suits the type. Tarrant is a
Lancelot or Achilles, whose talents lie in his strength and virtue (and
has weaknesses they were known for- love(Lancelot) and
arrogance(Achilles). Soolin is hard to find an archetype for... any
suggestion? Kerr is an anti-hero, reminiscent of the days when all
intellectuals were considered slightly sinister (Merlin was the son of a
demon)-- but he is played as a Zarathustra, a moral character who
created his own code of ethics after living 10 years in solitude.
I like _all_ the Blake's 7 characters and the timelessness of their
archetypes. But considering the heroes they resemble, I can say that
Avon is really the only one offensive to society. It doesn't matter what
time period we talk about; I'm talking about the fact that the others
choose to believe in right and wrong. Even in an immoral society like
the Federation, the majority _have_ to believe in right and wrong for
society to work.
Yes, I _do_ consider Avon's point of view to be intriguing. I wouldn't
behave the way he does. I do however, understand his reasoning. And I
admire the strength it takes to do the "wrong" thing, knowing that it
will be forever on his conscience, knowing he won't be forgiven, but
knowing it is the only way to save lives. (Stardrive) Sometimes he makes
mistakes; look at how he walked into Servalan's traps at times. But he
always cared about his teammates; he just never liked to admit it. So
crucify me for liking the character. Why did you watch past the first
two seasons if you dispise him as much as your comments to me seem to
indicate?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:54:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Susan.Moore@uni.edu
To: BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] RE: Location, location, location
Message-id: <01ITGTDLT8828Z2D8A@uni.edu>
It's interesting to see where people are from. Three Iowans on the list, not
too bad.
I've not watched much of seasons 3 or 4, but from what I've seen Tarrant is
very comfortable in his role as pilot and de facto second in command once he
susses out what Avon's about. If his military training is similar to current
training, the lack of a clear chain of command would be very disorienting.
I've seen much the same reaction when an organization I was connected with
moved from a hierarchical system to a team-based one. The chain of
decision-making (or command) was broken and it took a long time for some people
to adjust. I see Tarrant's reaction in a similar vein. I've seen fan fiction
where Tarrant left the Federation because of being ordered to do something he
found extremely distasteful, but what if he left because he ended up in a
situation where he was in charge and had to choose between actions that would
both end badly. That could sour him on command and explain why someone who was
capable of leading would chose not to.
Susan M.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:20:28 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "G. Robbins" <robbins@graceland.edu>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind
Message-ID: <34E26A7C.286B@jps.net>
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> 1. On Blake....(depending on these important variables)
> A. The series went on for another season
> B. Episode "Blake" just a nightmare
> C. He rejoins the crew
> What would it be like, or what kind of impact would it be for the crew
> members (each one in particular)? I have been trying to think about
> this and find it kind of interesting how he might have related to
> people like Dayna, Tarrant, and Soolin. What do you think?
>
If Blake rejoined the crew for a following-the-fourth-season period, I
think it would be beneficial to all. Avon has practically gone out of
his mind with stress, and with Blake regaining command, he can withdraw
and lose some of the heavy responsibility. Tarrant looks up to Blake by
reputation, so his Alpha male reactions will calm down in the presence
of this Silverback of rebellion. Soolin would be cool with him, Vila
would be happier, and Dayna-- I'm not sure how she'd react. Her dad
thought the world of Blake, but she didn't always see eye-to-lens with
her father, and Avon has been kind of a surrogate father since there
first episode-- she might resent the apparent demotion of Avon.
I think they'd stand a better chance of success.
Plot idea> Avon leaves the crew once he can get a ship of his own. Blake
is angry, feels that Avon is abandoning the dream. Avon is really going
on a solo mission that he isn't telling anyon about. He has developed an
incredible hatred for Servalan, and now that he doesn't have to worry
about the others, he inteneds to get revenge for all she's done.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:25:28 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "G. Robbins" <robbins@graceland.edu>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind
Message-ID: <34E26BA8.2FDB@jps.net>
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> 3. What was the deffinative reason Cally was crying after defeating the
> alien in
> "Sarcophagus?" Was she sad because she had let the alien in (because she
> had always been a generally sympathetic character and emotionally felt
> akin to the being) and then felt horrible because she had led to its
> death, and had heard it begging and pleading to live? Or was she crying
> because it had tried to kill Avon? Or was it a little of both?
My personal thought-- the scene with Avon left her drained and
remorseful. I don't know if anyone else thinks so, but it seemed to me
that she and Avon were developing a special rapport in 3rd season. In
spite of his mistrust of people in general, he's one of the only ones
who never got accusatory when she was doing weird things under mental
influences. He was concerned about her emotional well-being after
"Children of Auron"; he's not usually concerned about the feelings of
others. He seemed to respect for her opinions, without often agreeing.
She seemed to see the differences in his words vs his actions. In short,
if she hadn't gotten killed off, I think they might in time have become
more than friends. I know Paul says they weren't playing it that way
but--
does anyone else think they saw something starting?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:33:22 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: AChevron@aol.com
CC: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <34E26D82.7069@jps.net>
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> Actually, I've always thought that Avon usually had several reasons for
> almost every action/descision he made, and usually let the others choose what
> his reason was. Even with Servalan in Terminal. when she supposes that it is
> his interest in the hints of wealth that brought him running. He's proven
> often enough that he doesn't lack in physical bravery, just as Tarrant has
> never shown a lack of the same. The difference is in their interpretation and
> judgement of the danger. Avon goes to Horizon, after taking what measures he
> can to avoid detection/capture. Tarrant I think would have rushed planetside
> as did Cally, Gan, et. all. Brave but counter-productive.
> Just a few stray thoughts on this intriguing line of postings... Deborah
> Rose
Good thoughts.
I never thought about it before, but what you say about "multiple
motives" makes since. I'm the same way. Nearly everything I do, I can
give a wide range of reasons for. Maybe that's one reason I think Avon
was smart, even if he was losing to Servalan.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:58:10 -0600
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-Id: <199802120400.WAA25778@pemberton.magnolia.net>
Helen said:
> Yes, I _do_ consider Avon's point of view to be intriguing. I wouldn't
>behave the way he does. I do however, understand his reasoning. And I
>admire the strength it takes to do the "wrong" thing, knowing that it
>will be forever on his conscience, knowing he won't be forgiven, but
>knowing it is the only way to save lives. (Stardrive) Sometimes he makes
>mistakes; look at how he walked into Servalan's traps at times. But he
>always cared about his teammates; he just never liked to admit it. So
>crucify me for liking the character. Why did you watch past the first
>two seasons if you dispise him as much as your comments to me seem to
>indicate?
Since I've been participating in this discussion too--
Helen, *no one* is crucifying you for liking Avon. *I* like Avon too. He's
not my above-all favorite character, but I like him. It wouldn't be B7
without him. But maybe it would be wise to keep in mind that some of us
choose to focus on a different character or characters. That doesn't mean
we dislike Avon, or Avon fans, for that matter.
I doubt very much that anyone who's been in on this discussion despises
Avon. I know I don't, anyway. What I do find inexplicable is when the
other characters are held to a standard of behavior from which Avon is
somehow magically exempt. That I do find objectionable.
Lorna B.
"You ever flown a flying saucer? After that, sex seems trite."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:47:10 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <34E27ECE.49D3@jps.net>
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Lorna, thank you for being kinder to me than certain other people.
Sorry, I was insulted by one person who said she would ignore all my
mail since she thought I was pompous, or something like that. Maybe I am
a little, and I'm sorry for that, too. Find that on your email first
thing in the morning and see if it doesn't make you a little grouchy.
Look, I try to judge _each_ of the characters by _their own_ standards.
Dayna is bloodthirsty by most standards, but she's true to her own views
of standing up physically for what she believes in, seeing the world in
terms of friends and enemies,and behaving "appropiately" towards each of
them. If Vila started killing like she does, while telling the others he
can't stand the thought of bloodshed(and believing he still does), I'd
call him a hypocrit. I hold Avon to Avon's standards, Blake to Blake's
standards, Tarrant to Tarrant's standards, as I can best judge their own
standards to be. We aren't even discussing Servalan's morality because
we all know that she lives by standards so different, it's pointless to
compare her to anything good. Blake, Tarrant, Avon, and the other
'heroes" we can either compare to "absolute morality"-- care to tell me
what that is? Or their own standards. If you like, I'll concede it's
possible Blake and Tarrant have set standards noone can quite live up
to. I don't think Avon always lives up to his standards, either, and it
pains him at least as much as the others are pained by their own
failings.
And no, I don't live up to my standards either.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 04:54:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] FYI, more about Monkey
Message-Id: <199802120456.EAA10132@rock103.genie.net>
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This is probably rather more than you wanted to know, but--
Monkey is indeed a figure from Chinese folklore and mythology, but he's best
known as the protagonist of a major work of literature, one of the four
greatest novels of the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). There are two good English
translations of the book. The earlier, abbreviated one (1942) is by Arthur
Waley and is called =Monkey=. The more recent, complete one is by Anthony
Yu and is called =Journey to the West=.
The character called Tripitaka is very loosely based on a historical person,
a Chinese Buddhist priest who in the seventh century C.E. made the long and
perilous journey to India (to the west, because to get from China to India
by land you first have to go west across the Central Asian desert and then
around the Himalayas-- not easy even today) to bring back the authentic
Buddhist scriptures. His real name was Hsuan-tsang [or Xuanzang in the
modern romanization system]; Tripitaka is a nickname, the Sanskrit term for
the canon of Buddhist scriptures (as Calle mentioned; the word means
literally the Three Baskets-- Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, hence
the occasional cognates like the "tri" here-- because it is divided into
three sections). In later centuries it was thought that he must have had
supernatural help to complete such a trip successfully; hence the legends of
Monkey & co.
A very thorough scholarly study of the origin and growth of the Monkey
legends is Glen Dudbridge, =The Hsi-yu Chi: A Study of Antecedents to the
16th-Century Chinese Novel= (Cambridge U.P., 1970). The popularity of the
Monkey legends today is due, IMO, partly to the novel, partly to the already-
existing folklore that it was based on, and partly to the fact that Monkey
stories are often featured in Peking opera.
The novel was translated into Japanese in the 19th century as part of a
general boom in exotic fantasy adventure stories and has been popular in
Japan as well as in Chinese-speaking places ever since. There have been
umpteen animated and live-action versions of it, made in various places; I'm
not sure which version it was that was shown in Britain in the 80s (or for
that matter where Alakazam came from-- I must not be quite the right age,
Lorna!). But it sounds, actually, as if it may have been fairly close to
the novel. The Monkey is indeed an irreverent character. (I wouldn't be
surprised if it was a Japanese version. They tend to go in for pissing
scenes. And the English-dubbed TV version of =The Water Margin=, another
one of those four great Ming novels, was definitely a Japanese production
originally-- I used to watch it in Japan in the 70s.)
It never occurred to me to try to match the characters to the B7 ones,
because offhand I don't see much resemblance, but hmm... I'd say Monkey is
a combination of Vila and Tarrant. He's very much a trickster, like Vila,
but he also has a certain kind of confidence in his abilities that is more
Tarrant-like than Vila-like, IMO. And he's a fighter, which Tarrant is and
Vila isn't.
I always thought it was ironic the way the character Tripitaka is wimped out
in the novel, since the real historical person must have been a very tough
and tenacious character indeed to do what he did. But I guess that makes
the fit with Cally all the better. :S
I have no idea why Tripitaka was played by a woman, but it might perhaps
have something to do with a Chinese opera convention in which certain
specific male characters (e.g. Chia Pao-yu in The Dream of the Red Chamber;
I'm not sure about Tripitaka) are traditionally played by female
impersonators or, in a modern film or TV production, by actual women.
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 04:55:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant
Message-Id: <199802120507.FAA11338@rock103.genie.net>
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Alex said:
>again. I found C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia much more entertaining. I
>don't think one should have to learn a whole new set of languages in order
>to follow a story, as one is forced to with Lord of the Rings.
Eh? But one certainly doesn't have to learn the languages to follow the
story. The languages are just a fun extra for people who want to take the
trouble to play with them. Well, and they are also why Tolkien's made-up
names sound "right" in a way that few others do-- because he derived them
from his imaginary languages (and/or from English itself, as in the case of
"hobbit") in a consistent way, and being a philologist he knew exactly what
he was doing.
>And, as an addendum, I read Avon: A Terrible Aspect, and I didn't think it
>was as bad as many people say. I won't say it was the next replacement for
>Dostoyevski, but, well, it had a very nice cover.
By fan artist Karen River.
>Does anyone know where I
>can find copies of those books which are supposed to take place PGP? The
>ones which the authors didn't have permission for, and which I would just
>like to read so that I can see what the closest "canonical" version is?
Are you talking about fanzines with PGP stories? There are many, many, many
of them. Judith's web site is a good place to look for info on ordering
them by mail. And one excellent PGP is avalable on a web site-- Narrelle's
=Phoenix= (sorry, I don't have the url on hand).
Rob Clother said of Tarrant:
>He's also got all the tact and sensitivity of a brick through your front
>window (telling you your mother has died). Which is another thing people
>find annoying.
I dunno-- I think the all-time tactlessness prize has to go to Vila, for
that comment about how Servalan would shoot a blind man in the back-- in
front of Dayna. (He does, of course, apologise immediately.) I can't think
offhand of anything Tarrant does that is equally thoughtless.
True, they all had their less-than-admirable moments, but that's one of the
things that makes the series so appealing. I don't see Tarrant as being any
worse than any of the others, particularly in terms of interaction with
Vila. Vila gets picked on by everyone in the show-- it's part of his role.
>But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team.
>Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader,
>that's all.
I don't see Avon as being such an astute leader; I think his main edge over
Tarrant is simply age and experience. And maybe greater paranoia, which in
the B7 universe is definitely a survival trait!
Ah, I see Iain said:
>I think he wants to lead the crew in exactly the same sense that Avon does.
>
>Neither of them are particularly good leaders, and neither of them has any
>grand plan for the team. However, they both want to be top dog for
>egotistical reasons.
Yes, I agree. Although I tend to think of it as "top cat." The interaction
between Avon and Tarrant reminds me of something I once read in a book on
cat behavior. If two tomcats have to live together, there will be a period
of fighting until they work out which will be dominant, and then, once the
hierarchy is clearly established, they can live together fairly peacefully.
It generally takes about six months, and the senior cat usually wins in the
end, even if the younger one is bigger and stronger.
This description sounded very familiar to me!
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:39:08 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant
Message-ID: <34E28AFC.3B31@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Yes, I agree. Although I tend to think of it as "top cat." The interaction
> between Avon and Tarrant reminds me of something I once read in a book on
> cat behavior. If two tomcats have to live together, there will be a period
> of fighting until they work out which will be dominant, and then, once the
> hierarchy is clearly established, they can live together fairly peacefully.
> It generally takes about six months, and the senior cat usually wins in the
> end, even if the younger one is bigger and stronger.
>
> This description sounded very familiar to me!
>
> Sarah T.
ROFL! That's exactly right. They even look kind of like cats. :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:35:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] authors and such
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0211183514-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
On Tue 10 Feb, Alex Dering wrote:
> And, as an addendum, I read Avon: A Terrible Aspect, and I didn't think it
> was as bad as many people say. I won't say it was the next replacement for
> Dostoyevski, but, well, it had a very nice cover. Does anyone know where I
> can find copies of those books which are supposed to take place PGP? The
> ones which the authors didn't have permission for, and which I would just
> like to read so that I can see what the closest "canonical" version is?
You mean like all those ones I publish <grin>. I've got several PGPs on my
list. If you want novels, I have a few, if you want short stories in
anthologies, I have loads!
Take a look at my web page under 'fanzines'. If you don't have web access, just
ask me for a list of PGP zines and their prices.
Judith
PS. I think it was Karen River who did the cover art for Paul's book. She's
dome many wonderful fanzine illustrations over the years as well.
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:25:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0211182519-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
On Wed 11 Feb, Iain Coleman wrote:
>
> Oh yes. Playing opposite a good actor bring your own performance up a
> gear, and if the two actors can get into a positive-feedback loop you can
> get two really strong performances. The off-stage relationship between the
> actors is also a factor: if you get on well with someone, you can take
> bigger risks with them on stage - and also, you are likely to be on each
> other's wavelength, and respond well to what the other person does. Gareth
> and Paul are a case in point.
Absolutely. Those two worked wonderfully together. You can see the
relationship at conventions too. There's a chemistry between Paul and
Gareth that just draws the audience in. I never saw it better than at the
Neutral Zone last year. The last session of the convention was almost nothing
to do with Blake's 7, they were just swopping anecdotes about actors they had
known, yet the atmosphere was incredible. The audience were completely
involved.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:22:49 +0000
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's morals
Message-ID: <q+g6uAAJLj40Ew$Q@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <5309.9802111953@bsauasb.nerc-bas.ac.uk>, Iain Coleman
<ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk> writes
>I think Avon saw himself very much as a Nietzschean hero: powerful,
>self-confident, far above the petty concerns and self-serving morality
>of the masses, requiring no-one's friendship, support or approval,
>serenely content in his own solitary superiority - The Superman.
>
>The extent to which this ideal corresponds to reality is left as
>an exercise for the reader.
>
ROFL!
I think this particular reality gap contributes a great deal to the
entertainment value of the show...
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:54:55 -0000
From: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's morals
Message-ID: <887270548.1016049.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Much talk about Nietzsche. I think this is a really intersting subject - so
thanks for taking this up.
For instance:
iain -
> I think Avon saw himself very much as a Nietzschean hero: powerful,
> self-confident, far above the petty concerns and self-serving morality
> of the masses, requiring no-one's friendship, support or approval,
> serenely content in his own solitary superiority - The Superman.
>
> The extent to which this ideal corresponds to reality is left as
> an exercise for the reader.
To some extent perhaps Avon was the kind of person N. wished he had been -
devilishly handsome, man of action and intellect, not constrained by false
morality.
I think where N. went wrong was thinking that the alternatives in life were
(a) Traditional christian morality which demanded that the strong sacrifice
themselves completely for the weak and was nervous of vigour and joy
(b) His kind of proto-fascism which demanded that the strong were
completely cruel and ruthless, and treated the weak like cattle.
Interestingly I think the character of Avon is better than anything
Nietzsche devised. Which seems incredible, except that the people who
helped to create the character are benefitting, as we all are, from
hindsight of the 20th century and all the terrible things which have
happened. I think if N. was alive today he would have been sadder and wiser
too.
I have really marked opinions about Avon's morality. I think he was clever
enough to know that he lived in a terrible time in history, when there was
no mercy given or shown. He knew that there would be 'no marks given for
good behaviour',.so that if he decided to take a risk to help someone he
had no false belief that this would guarantee success or gratitude. Given
that with all these beliefs he still did act with compassion and loyalty -
at least from time to time - seems to me to be particularly moral.
This has always been my strongest feeling about Avon, that he marks a
riposte to the two Nietzschean extremes. It is possible to be very
vibrantly alive, to reject sentimentality and false comfort, without
becoming a monster such as Nietzsche envisaged.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:13:27 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: "G. Robbins" <robbins@graceland.edu>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind
Message-ID: <Es2VKLAn8q40EwLb@wriding.demon.co.uk>
In message <Pine.HPP.3.96.980211140549.12351C-100000@inet-
ux.graceland.edu>, "G. Robbins" <robbins@graceland.edu> writes
>HI!
>
>Just passing along a few things that have been on my mind...well,
>hypothetical questions, really, and a few comments.
>
>1. On Blake....(depending on these important variables)
> A. The series went on for another season
> B. Episode "Blake" just a nightmare
> C. He rejoins the crew
> What would it be like, or what kind of impact would it be for the crew
> members (each one in particular)? I have been trying to think about
> this and find it kind of interesting how he might have related to
> people like Dayna, Tarrant, and Soolin. What do you think?
>
I guess the assumption is that Avon managed to track him down and contact
him and then relocate to join Blake (after the Warlord fiasco blew their secret
location on Xenon) with no bloodshed and no Federation involvement.
Does Blake still retain his old charisma? I'd say he's even more impressive by
the end of the 4th season than he ever was. He's now older and battle-
scarred, lending him greater credibility as a leader who puts his own safety on
the line and doesn't just give orders from the rear.
I think Tarrant would quickly recognise Blake's leadership and follow him -
all it would take is for Blake to praise Tarrant's skills, trust him with important
duties and secrets etc.
Dayna would quickly adopt him as her new father figure, probably taking on
a body guard role, fussing over his diet and safety and (annoyingly to Blake)
trying to prevent other people having direct access to him.
Soolin would have the greatest problem accepting him, but she's an idealist
under the surface cynicism, and once Blake started opening up and exposing
his own doubts and fears about what he was doing she'd quickly melt and
become his most loyal follower.
>2. On Jenna...(depending on these variables)
> A. The series goes on for another season
> B. She rejoins the crew
> C. Episode "Blake" just a dream
> Just like above....what would it be like, or what kind of impact would
> it be for the crew members (each one in particular)? I have been
> trying to think about this and find it kind of interesting how she
> might have related to people like Dayna, Tarrant, and Soolin. What do
> you think?
>
I assume this is *just* Jenna, and with no Blake. I can't see this working at all
well (except in drama terms). She's bound to clash with Tarrant over piloting
duties and be jealous of Soolin because the woman is very much like her in a
lot of ways (but younger :)
She might just ignore Dayna as an immature unsophisticate, or she might
cultivate her as a little sister in order to counter balance Tarrant's backers. I
expect Avon would stay well clear of all the crew politics and let them sort it
out between themselves, while Vila would be vacilating; giving his support to
whoever browbeat him most recently.
A plausible resolution is that Jenna's and Tarrant's struggle for dominance
could turn into mutual respect and perhaps a romantic attachment. On the
other hand Jenna could just lose her temper at one patronising remark too
many and gun him down. I know which alternative I'd prefer :)
>
>3. What was the deffinative reason Cally was crying after defeating the
>alien in
>"Sarcophagus?" Was she sad because she had let the alien in (because she
>had always been a generally sympathetic character and emotionally felt
>akin to the being) and then felt horrible because she had led to its
>death, and had heard it begging and pleading to live? Or was she crying
>because it had tried to kill Avon? Or was it a little of both?
>
I'd always assumed it was sorrow at the final death of the alien, with whom
she'd been sharing an intensely close bond. She empathised with the alien's
need for survival and companionship, even if Cally couldn't approve of the
methods it used.
--
Russ Massey
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:57:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: Rob Clother <rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk>
To: B7 mailing list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980212094205.1078A-100000@newton>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Rob said:
> >He's also got all the tact and sensitivity of a brick through your front
> >window (telling you your mother has died). Which is another thing people
> >find annoying.
>
> Examples?
Sarcophagus: his treatment of Cally, which sparked off his little
tete-a-tete with Avon. He was suspicious of her and wanted answers, but
he went totally the wrong way about it.
City at the Edge of the World and Moloch: his interactions with Vila.
Both times, he was trying to enlist Vila's efforts. Both times he
resorted to a battle of wills, which, in the latter case, he actually
lost. By contrast, Blake would have known exactly how to handle the
situation.
> Tact and sensitivity isn't exactly number one on any of the crewmembers'
> list of sterling traits.
Except, of course, for Blake himself. And, perhaps, Avon -- who proves
himself to be a surprisingly skillful diplomat, when necessity calls. You
see, the reason I attach so much importance to tact and sensitivity is
because those are qualities that separate leaders from dominant
personalities. in Series 3, there's no doubt that Tarrant and Avon were
jockeying for position. Strange as it sounds, it was Avon's tact that won
him the leadership role in Series 4.
Examples? Sorry, gotta go and talk to my supervisor now. I'll come back
to this later, if the discussion is still going.
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:46:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Rob Clother <rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk>
To: B7 mailing list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Cross-overs
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980212104415.1707A-100000@newton>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Has anyone ever conceived of a B7/HitchHiker's cross-over? It would be
worth it just to see what kind of relationship develops between Orac and
Marvin. :->
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:51:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
Cc: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's morals
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980212102717.17789B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Alison Page wrote:
> Much talk about Nietzsche. I think this is a really intersting subject - so
> thanks for taking this up.
>
> For instance:
> iain -
> > I think Avon saw himself very much as a Nietzschean hero: powerful,
> > self-confident, far above the petty concerns and self-serving morality
> > of the masses, requiring no-one's friendship, support or approval,
> > serenely content in his own solitary superiority - The Superman.
> >
> > The extent to which this ideal corresponds to reality is left as
> > an exercise for the reader.
>
> To some extent perhaps Avon was the kind of person N. wished he had been -
> devilishly handsome, man of action and intellect, not constrained by false
> morality.
>
> I think where N. went wrong was thinking that the alternatives in life were
> (a) Traditional christian morality which demanded that the strong sacrifice
> themselves completely for the weak and was nervous of vigour and joy
> (b) His kind of proto-fascism which demanded that the strong were
> completely cruel and ruthless, and treated the weak like cattle.
>
> Interestingly I think the character of Avon is better than anything
> Nietzsche devised. Which seems incredible, except that the people who
> helped to create the character are benefitting, as we all are, from
> hindsight of the 20th century and all the terrible things which have
> happened. I think if N. was alive today he would have been sadder and wiser
> too.
I think you're maybe being a wee bit unfair to poor old Nietzsche. This
"Nietzschean hero" we're talking about is largely derived from "Thus Spoke
Zarathustra", and your comments about morality sound as though they're
from "The Antichrist" (though there are other possibilities, it's just
that that is his most vicious rant on this topic). I don't know if you've
read "Human, All Too Human" or "Daybreak". To me, these are his best
books. There's a subtlety, a lightness of touch and a genuine human
feeling in those books, as well as a lot of insightful and prophetic
statements that sound as if they come from a 20th Century writer.
I agree that Nietzsche would be sadder and wiser today - but not, I
suspect, for the same reasons. (Actually, I think he'd be saddest of all
about what his proto-Nazi sister did to his reputation.)
> I have really marked opinions about Avon's morality. I think he was clever
> enough to know that he lived in a terrible time in history, when there was
> no mercy given or shown. He knew that there would be 'no marks given for
> good behaviour',.so that if he decided to take a risk to help someone he
> had no false belief that this would guarantee success or gratitude. Given
> that with all these beliefs he still did act with compassion and loyalty -
> at least from time to time - seems to me to be particularly moral.
I'm with you here. Avon doesn't act out a code of ethics, which often
makes him seem like a ruthless bastard. But for precisely this reason,
when he does act for the sake of morality or justice it is absolutely
sincere, and he will apply as much determination, courage and skill to
that as he did to breaking the Federation banking system. Which didn't
exactly go as planned, of course.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:33:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@eng.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Various stuff
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.980212122538.11255R-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi all!
I said:
>> I'm based in Cambridge (England) for those in this neck of the woods.
Iain said:
>So am I! Any other Cambridge bods around here? (Come on, there must be,
>this town is full of sad geeks, sorry, cultured and technically literate
>intellectuals.)
Woo hoo! Whereabouts are you based?
Nicole said:
>Actually, what Sarcophagus illustrates is that the Humming Blue Egg can
>manipulate the minds and emotions of the humans on board. A & T are
>interacting 'normally' in the beginning of the ep. Just before Avon and
>Tarrant start their rants, the camera focusses on the HBE; I choose to
>interpret that as an indication that it is influencing their
>interactions; as soon as it stops, both Avon and Tarrant drop the
>postures. Both say something to the effect of 'Forget that', and they go
>on.
>So I've never bought that the scene defined their interaction, that deep
>down that's what they really feel about their relative positions on the
>ship. Just IMHO.
I like this interpretation of events, but thinking about it, I'd also like
to think that the HBE *exaggerates* their basic characters and
relationship. It's almost as if they go into overdrive in that scene:
Tarrant becomes brasher and more bolshie; Avon becomes icier and relies on
an elegant remark to indicate his fury... Just a thought.
Re: The Water Margin
My God!! Someone else who remember this programme!! Whenever I see/hear
'Monkey' discussed I *always* say 'But 'The Water Margin' was so much
better!!! And now someone has done it for me already!! I've bought some of
the video releases and it is just *brilliant*!!
Una
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064
Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701
Cambridge CB2 1AG
United Kingdom http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:39:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@eng.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] LOTR
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.980212123707.11255T-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Can't let it pass... ;) Alex, sorry you didn't enjoy Lord of the Rings. I
*adore* it - but then I had it forced on me at an early age (six) by my
dad. If you want to try it again ever, have a go at the BBC Radio 4
adaptation, which is possibly one of the best radio productions of all
time; plus, you can do your knitting or something while you're listening
to it! ;)
The Narnia books are good, I agree.
Una
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064
Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701
Cambridge CB2 1AG
United Kingdom http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:36:01 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind
Message-ID: <86d41ecc.34e2dea3@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-02-11 22:09:58 EST, you write:
<< does anyone else think they saw something starting?
>>
No doubt in my mind. Avon tolerates the change of priorities when the
Sarcophogus shows up, pretty much to humor Cally. And the glances he keeps
giving her through the episode. Personal opinion; having resolved his Anna
Grant fixation, he felt ready to attempt a relationship with Cally. Presumably
when Servalan's fake Blake messages started arriving, he put the matter on
hold, so that he wouldn't prematurally let slip what he was about, expecting
to resume the relationship after the Liberator et al were re-united with
Blake. And then Terminal happened.... no wonder the poor lad was a
tad....aggresive in series 4.
D. Rose
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #44
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