From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #103
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume99/103
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain
blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 103
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
[B7L] More Dayna dynamics
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Stardrive
Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin a long time ago...)
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics
Re: [B7L] what's so funny? (was - Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
[B7L] worst opening
Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...and red leather
[B7L] worst opening (fwd)
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)
[B7L] Tarrant and Dayna's arm
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:16:13 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <c3830cb.36eef44d@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Joanne, you really shouldn't do this to me. You know how I can't resist
babbling on about a certain subject. <g>
> Maybe I should have said Vila at the very least earlier! Not that you
> are suggesting that Avon is stupid, but it would have taken a little
> more watchfulness to discern who it might've been. I'm sure Tarrant
> could've worked out it wasn't Blake very quickly -
Yes, here's the actual exchange between Avon and Tarrant. I can't resist
sharing it because the way they are relating is absolutely adorable (and what
comes before and after is also good, but I restrained myself ;).
TARRANT: I imagine you've been under considerable stress.
AVON: I had hoped for a more inspiring epitaph.
TARRANT: So, after realizing you were one of Blake's people it
was simple. You weren't Blake, I'd have recognized
him.
AVON: And too intelligent for Vila.
TARRANT: It was an even bet.
AVON: Quite.
> A little more time, and he found out this stranger was too competent to
> be Vila (under stress, that is).
Yes, the bit about the "even bet" comes across as a tease to me (Tarrant's
humor is so dry that he delivers lines like that with a straight face--much
like Steven Pacey as a matter of fact). But Avon appears to have found the
humor in it.
> This is interesting. This is a Tarrant that I can understand. Not that
> I'd even try to make that claim, in the first place.
I think many fans are so busy looking at the other characters that a lot about
Tarrant slides by. There's a line in "Powerplay" where Tarrant says he's not
sure about anything (to himself) that says a lot about his state of mind (to
me).
> His perfectly proportioned neck, surely? Carol, how could you? <very
> evil grin>
You're right. Skinny when stretched, that's what I meant.
> Here my sympathy for Vila cuts in, suggesting he should've understood
> Vila's position a bit better.
I think that's his military background again. He's not used to dealing with
civilians. It's very frustrating for him. (And frustrating for Vila!) I
appreciate that Tarrant regrets his mistake. He admits to Cally and Avon he
was wrong. He apologizes to Vila. And Vila appears to have forgiven him.
It's Vila who is very Tarrant-protective in "Blake," which is rather sweet.
> But that's probably a script level fault,
Could be, but I'm with Mistral on this. I have to find an internal reason for
things. If Tarrant did it, then it's his fault.
> Casting a younger man might've been
> the best thing they could've done for the character - leaving room for
> change.
Why I mainly appreciate the younger casting (well, aside from the fact they
cast such a good-looking, talented young actor <g>), is that it gave us
dynamics that were very much different from seasons one and two. Two perky
young things on the Liberator had to be very trying for the older crew members
at times. Though it might come in handy at spring cleaning time. Just give
them each a bucket and a rag, sit back and let them perk away.
> I rather like that picture
> of Avon asleep. But then, I would, wouldn't I?
The cover art was my favorite.
> (worrying, after this post, about the possibilities of the Tarrant
> Nostra coming after her - to induct her)
You mean you're still resisting. Such will power. The doors are open. The
tractor beam is operational. Don't you feel yourself being sucked in?
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:25:45 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics
Message-ID: <d75ec2c9.36eef689@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
More Dayna-Vila: I can also remember at least two occasions in the third
season where Vila and Dayna are aboard the Liberator, Vila takes control of
the situation, and Dayna lets him. The first is in Children of Auron, where
Vila suckers the Fed captain into teleporting up to the ship so Dayna and
Patar can take him out. The second is in Terminal, when Zen is dying. Dayna
didn't challenge him. I think Dayna may have had more respect for him than
was immediately apparent.
Dayna-Cally: They seemed to have a very good working relationship. It's hard
to say how close they were; Cally seemed to draw into herself in the third
season. I think the age difference may have created a gap between them, but
they did join together in teasing Vila in Death-Watch.
Dayna-Soolin: They seemed to become close friends and allies, particularly
after Stardrive. Perhaps they banded together for mutual protection against
an increasingly unstable Avon?
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:44:31 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <19990317014434.26918.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>Joanne, you really shouldn't do this to me. You know how I can't
>resist babbling on about a certain subject. <g>
<mock contrite> Carol, I'm sorry about your affliction, and that I'm
exacerbating it <smile>
>Yes, here's the actual exchange between Avon and Tarrant. [snip]
Hm, yes, I forgot about that (haven't seen Powerplay for a while), and
Tiger M reminded me too. My mind is on other fiddly details in real life
(comes of trying to juggle too many indexes at once).
>> A little more time, and he found out this stranger was too
>> competent to be Vila (under stress, that is).
>Yes, the bit about the "even bet" comes across as a tease to me
>(Tarrant's humor is so dry that he delivers lines like that with a
straight >face--much like Steven Pacey as a matter of fact). But Avon
>appears to have found the humor in it.
Well, we all know his sense of humour is a little off-centre.
>> This is interesting. This is a Tarrant that I can understand. Not
that
>> I'd even try to make that claim, in the first place.
>I think many fans are so busy looking at the other characters that a
>lot about Tarrant slides by.
<grin> With the man in black around? For some of us, that's a certainty.
>> Here my sympathy for Vila cuts in, suggesting he should've
>>understood Vila's position a bit better.
>I think that's his military background again. He's not used to dealing
>with civilians.
Maybe this comes down to just how long it is since Tarrant deserted. If
it was very recent, then it's little wonder that the lack of a strict
hierarchy irked him. If it was less recent, then he should have had time
to learn how to handle it. He's adaptable material, isn't he? <smile>
>> Casting a younger man might've been
>> the best thing they could've done for the character - leaving room
>> for change.
>Why I mainly appreciate the younger casting (well, aside from the fact
they cast such a good-looking, talented young actor <g>)
<big grin> Of course. For you, that should go without saying!
> is that it gave us dynamics that were very much different from
>seasons one and two. Two perky young things on the Liberator had >to be
very trying for the older crew members
Undoubtedly. Dayna, while hardly as idealistic as Blake, is rather more
so than Jenna. Tarrant likewise. We know Vila's preferred life revolves
around surviving so that he can steal and then lead a hedonistic life on
the proceeds - hardly idealistic, hardly service oriented like Tarrant,
and likely to be a thorn in the latter's side because of it. Avon
wouldn't be doing this if he didn't feel he had to, so not exactly
service oriented either. And both Vila and Avon would've been
battleweary to a greater or lesser extent by then. Cally? Her idealism
remained, but that battleweariness was working on her too. New blood
might have given them new hope, but this is open to argument, especially
in the aftermath of Star One.
>> (worrying, after this post, about the possibilities of the Tarrant
>> Nostra coming after her - to induct her)
>You mean you're still resisting. Such will power.
<grin> I'd say the influence of a favourite character was working on me,
but even Avon was forced to go to sleep on Ultraworld. I shall have to
look for another role model in that respect.
>The doors are open. The tractor beam is operational. Don't you feel
>yourself being sucked in?
<chuckle> Am I feeling sleepy? Will I hear Carol's voice going "You will
not resist any longer"? Shall I wake up and remember nothing except lots
of teeth and curls (although that brings up the spectre of hypnotism
involving Tom Baker, if it comes to that!)?
Regards
Joanne
(If I manage to watch Traitor again on the weekend, and Tarrant's
heroics don't suck me in, then I'm not an easy target for Tarrant
worship. We will see <smile>)
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:03:43 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <74642e70.36ef0d7f@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 99-03-16 20:46:20 EST, Joanne wrote:
<< Maybe this comes down to just how long it is since Tarrant deserted. If
it was very recent, then it's little wonder that the lack of a strict
hierarchy irked him. If it was less recent, then he should have had time
to learn how to handle it. He's adaptable material, isn't he? <smile>>>
I don't think he had been on his own too long. I'm not sure he would have
survived if he had, as idealistic and reckless as he tended to be. Also, if
he had his own ship which he operated by himself, he still might not be used
to interacting with others outside a clearly defined hierarchy of command. He
might have spend long periods of time by himself on said ship and primarily
dealt with others in a business context rather than a social one. I think he
did adapt to the Liberator fairly quickly, all things considered.:)
<< Undoubtedly. Dayna, while hardly as idealistic as Blake, is rather more
so than Jenna. Tarrant likewise. We know Vila's preferred life revolves
around surviving so that he can steal and then lead a hedonistic life on
the proceeds - hardly idealistic, hardly service oriented like Tarrant,
and likely to be a thorn in the latter's side because of it. Avon
wouldn't be doing this if he didn't feel he had to, so not exactly
service oriented either. And both Vila and Avon would've been
battleweary to a greater or lesser extent by then. Cally? Her idealism
remained, but that battleweariness was working on her too. New blood
might have given them new hope, but this is open to argument, especially
in the aftermath of Star One.>>
I think you're right about the battleweariness. Tarrant did try to get them
moving in some kind of direction in the third season ("Volcano" and "Harvest
of Kairos" come to mind), but Avon, Vila and Cally did not seem to be
particularly interested. They didn't even seem to be concerned that the
ship's blasters weren't functional in "City at the Edge of the Universe." I
also think Tarrant and Vila came to an understanding after this incident;
neither one held any grudges against the other. Vila did not seem to be at
all upset afterwards.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:31:59 GMT
From: kminne@camtech.net.au (Ken Minne)
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stardrive
Message-ID: <36eeee7f.2617891@mail.camtech.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Good day all,
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:11:40 +0100 (BST), Judith wrote:
<snip>
>The bit that really struck me this time was that the Space Rats were obviously
>(if you think about it for more than ten seconds) a highly skilled group. They
>managed to keep in working order all those stolen vehicles taken from museums
>etc. That suggests a range of technical sills covering a very broad base
>indeed. This does not fit in well with them failing to wear gloves when
>handling Plaxton's equipment. A real enthusiast will do whatever is necessary
>to get his equipment working.
>>
>> Atlan drops a hint that he is not, in fact, a Space Rat at all, but quite
>> what he is instead goes unmentioned - a serious omission (unless it was cut
>> from the original script). To me this echoed the stock reactionary idea
>> that people like me at that time were supposedly being funded from Moscow,
>> and it made me a little bit angry.
>
>never even saw it as that kind of rationale. After all, there are no 'commies'
>in hte B7 universe and Atlan didn't come over as a member of the rebellion. It
>was a bad ommission as to what he was supposed to be though. Anyone seen an
>original script?
>
I agree that there was no hint that Atlan was working for any third
party in Stardrive.
I think that he was likely a renegade military officer who had bought
( I have got a ship and some guns, do you guys want some more? ) or
fought ( I've got a ship and guns and I can kill you too ) the
leadership of the SpaceRats. The SpaceRats were hard pushed to
planning anything without speed, sex or booze, unless it involved more
speed, sex or booze but represented a easy to control military force
in miniature, with a scary reputation already built. Atlan had plans
to turn the SpaceRats into a pirate empire, and he probably could have
done so if he had been able to mass produce the Stardrive and fit it
to a fleet.
Atlan boasts most of this at one stage or another.
Then again, if he was the agent of a third party, he would firstly be
hardly likely to brag about the fact ( the SpaceRats might take it
badly ) and secondly, he would have either killed Dr Paxton or had her
picked up by his employers for their use rather than scrape around
pillaging planets to do the work on Caspar..
On the other hand, in the novelisation, Atlan is more brutish, gunning
down Napier with Dayna's gun as a test.
>Judith
Catch you later,
Walter Minne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:22:50 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <19990317042252.13352.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Carol wrote to Mistral:
<We can focus on discussing how we specifically view the Snarly One. >
Interesting - I liked reading both of your versions and got something
from both but (are you surprised) I'm at a different angle again.
I agree with Carol that Avon's lack of trust was perfectly
understandable and - given who he was, *where* he was - anything else
would have been unbelievable. He doesn't want to trust, and he doesn't
want to be trusted (he happily stirs up Jenna's mistrust of him in
Cygnus Alpha, even though he would need her agreement if he was to ditch
Blake). And he's landed in a situation where his survival depends on
being able to trust people whom, for the most part, he doesn't like much
and doesn't respect at all. And a leader who is willing to trust *him*
before Avon was at all ready (the gun incident in Spacefall indicates
Blake had made up his mind - Cygnus Alpha proves Avon hadn't).
Mistral again :
<Blake sees something in Avon that no-one's seen in a very long time...
the basically moral person behind the nasty facade.>
Ummm. He also sees the basically amoral person in there too. I think
Avon would have a hard time shocking or even surprising Blake, whichever
way he turned in any situation. (All right, all right, until Gauda
Prime.)
To which Carol says:
<I thought all of Avon's shipmates saw beyond that facade (though Vila
may have been changing his mind after 'Orbit').>
Most, not all...I really don't think Jenna believed in his good side
(which would have made her possible return in Series 3, without Blake,
rather interesting). I think Gan hadn't made up his mind. Avon was too
complicated for him, but maybe he trusted Blake's hold on Avon. And I'm
not sure about Soolin.
The rest, yes, they may not have agreed on what they saw behind the
facade, but yes, they knew there was *something* there. (They could
probably argue the point nearly as long as we could.)
<And one thing Blake never fully understood about Avon was how much Avon
needed his own space (emotionally and physically). >
Sorry, Carol, but this I *really* don't agree with. I know I've read
similar views before, but I don't think there's any evidence at all that
Avon felt crowded by Blake. Not physically - they are both extremely
comfortable moving into each other's personal space, Avon making the
move just as often as Blake; their body language indicates that neither
feels stressed. Even when they're arguing (and you don't get that level
of creative fighting unless they're comfortable doing it). Nor crowded
mentally - Blake quite clearly never asked Avon for an intellectual or
emotional commitment to his cause, or to him personally, just for his
practical help. Avon made the decision that it went further into
personal loyalty, and I don't see any evidence that Blake imposed on the
loyalty.
For most of the two seasons, there is no evidence whatsoever that Avon
is finding dealing personally with Blake difficult (exasperating,
infuriating, mentally stimulating, I can see). The cracks appear late in
Season 2 (somewhere between Voice from the Past and The Keeper), and IMO
are due to the increasing pressures as the search for Star One. Given
their profound differences of outlook and opinion - and the dangers they
are all living under - it is a testament to their bond that it takes
that long for it to happen.
Could you give me examples of where *you* think Avon is made
uncomfortable in this way? I promise to look at them in with an open
mind (well, semi-open...<g>)
<While I'm not saying this to make a claim that Tarrant was closer to
Avon than Blake (because I think the relationships were very different,
but equally respectful and caring), Tarrant did know to grant Avon
space.>
See above. If there *is* space (I'm granting you a better knowledge of
the Avon-Tarrant relationship) it's because both men wanted it. With
Blake-Avon, I've no evidence that Avon wanted any more space than he
had, and in fact, the space between them was breached by him as often as
not. After all, Avon related on completely different grounds with the
two men.
< He has come to trust his shipmates. And at this point in time, the
ones he's most recently been with are the ones he trusts most (over
Blake).>
I think he trusts both Tarrant and Blake by this stage (which indicates
how much he thinks of Tarrant). But it wasn't a matter of choosing, he
had nothing to choose *from*. As I said somewhere else, Tarrant made the
accusation, clearly, unambiguously. And Blake didn't seem to be denying
it, although Avon is asking - almost pleading with - Blake *to* deny it.
I think that if Blake had done so, clearly and concisely, Avon would
have believed him over Tarrant, at least long enough to avert disaster;
not because he trusted Blake more than Tarrant, but because Blake would
be saying what he desperately wanted to hear (he wouldn't plead for that
denial just to reject it), and Tarrant was saying something he
desperately wanted not to hear. But (as I suggested on the Other List)
Blake was also in shock, staring at someone *he* cared about in enormous
pain, and wasn't thinking any straighter than Avon.
This was going to be such a short posting - I *really* have to stop
rambling...
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:28:36 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin a long time ago...)
Message-ID: <19990317042837.3416.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Carol said:
>Tarrant doesn't want Klegg to know who Avon is...He's telling Avon , if
Avon hasn't already guessed, that you better not admit you are one of
the original crew.>
Then spent a sizable part of the episode trying to keep Avon out of
Klegg's hands, even when he had to thump the man senseless to do it. No
sacrifice is too great...
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:57:28 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <59f21bbe.36ef4448@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 3/16/99 5:34:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, Mac4781@aol.com
writes:
> TARRANT: It was an even bet.
> AVON: Quite.
>
This is one of my favorite A/T scenes - I love the look on Avon's face!
Always makes me think "He's gonna get you for that, Tarrant!"
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:01:10 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36EF4523.C6FFAC6F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mac4781@aol.com wrote:
> I think a part of him might have been just as
> glad to have had the less stressful role. Which he might or might not have
> admitted to himself. Since Tarrant would never avoid responsibility, he might
> not be comfortable admitting to himself that he's just as glad not to have the
> responsibility of leadership. As much as Avon had to compartmentalize his
> inner emotions, Tarrant did it even more. He just hid it better, from himself
> and from others.
Interesting idea, worthy of much thought. This bit, I *may*be able to use. Even
one little piece of the puzzle is worth
many frustrating exchanges (rather more like non-exchanges,
actually) of ideas. Kudos.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:44:29 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics
Message-ID: <19981029.140042.10054.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
>Dayna-Soolin: They seemed to become close friends and allies,
>particularly
>after Stardrive. Perhaps they banded together for mutual protection
>against
>an increasingly unstable Avon?
>
>Tiger M
>
I always saw them as having a lot in common (weapons obsessions, family
wiped out by Federation, killer instincts, age, gender, etc.) and Soolin
may remind Dayna somewhat of her dead, blond sister. They also travel in
Scorpio instead of Liberator. That means long stretches in one room
which they have to share with three guys. You'd better believe the girls
are going to bond together for emotional support and mutual protection!
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:24:02 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? (was - Assassin)
Message-ID: <36EF4A81.799C3E78@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Alison Page wrote:
> Mistral said -
>
> >All humor is based on pain of some kind
>
> Blimey I couldn't disagree more. This is one of those myths that everyone
> repeats, but it doesn't seem to stand up to a moment's examination.
<smile> You're assuming that I got this idea from hearing it
somewhere. I came to this conclusion on my own, and was
quite surprised when I discovered this is largely considered a
truism.
> To me it seems that humour is anything that jumps your mind off it's tracks.
> As if a train derailed but instead of crashing it just jumped across to
> another line and went zipping off in an unexpected direction. It is
> something that frees you from the 'normal' predictable way your thoughts
> might run on, and makes you see everything in a new way. The quicker and
> more extreme the jump the funnier (or so it seems to me).
I find looking at things from a new angle almost universally
engaging and refreshing, but not always humourous.
> If I see a proud person made to look
> stupid it's the contrast that's funny, not the pain they suffer. If it was
> the pain that was funny then the most painful things you ever saw would also
> be the most funny, and things that didn't hurt wouldn't be funny at all.
Actually, yes, that's exactly what I think *does* happen.
A proud person made to look stupid would be embarrassed,
therefore suffering emotional pain, and we laugh at his
expense; or if he doesn't recognize his own stupidity, we
laugh at the recognition of that flaw in ourselves. IMHO
laughter is a survival mechanism -- it might be an oversimplification
to say *all* humor is based on someone's pain, at some level --
ususally embarrassment of an inflated ego. I'd be glad to see
some specific examples of humor that is not painful for
*somebody* -- I do often try to think of some, but never
can. It's one of the reasons that I rarely find 'comedies' anything
other than excruciating to watch -- and you couldn't pay me
enough to watch a sitcom.
B7, OTOH, freely acknowledges the pain-humor connection --
Blake and Avon do it particularly; also Tarrant and Soolin are
prone to do it occasionally -- which is probably why I
find it cheerful and hysterically amusing, rather than so
terribly dark and brooding.
BTW, I don't believe in tears of happiness, either.
<evil grin>
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:31:40 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <36EF4C4C.8207111D@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/16/99 5:34:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, Mac4781@aol.com
> writes:
>
> > TARRANT: It was an even bet.
> > AVON: Quite.
> >
> This is one of my favorite A/T scenes - I love the look on Avon's face!
> Always makes me think "He's gonna get you for that, Tarrant!"
Yes, here's that humor-pain connection in play. Avon
does recognize Tarrant's joke -- but it's a barbed one,
deliberately pointed at Avon's ego. Otherwise, it's
just a statement of fact, and not funny at all -- the
joke *is* the dig at Avon's ego -- which is aiming
pain at Avon. Avon can be hurt, or he can laugh; and
the usual reaction is to laugh on the surface, and be
hurt on some deeper level. This is where the real
struggle between Avon and Tarrant begins -- with
Tarrant basically announcing that he's outsmarted
Avon; there's not a much more direct challenge he
could have issued, short of slapping Avon in the face
with a glove.
Quick now -- insult me while I'm still in the
mood to laugh!!!
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:40:20 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] worst opening
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0316184020-bc8Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Avon had not known that Servalan was capable of such depths of depravity - to
lure him to Terminal with a computer animation of his teddy bear...
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:25:21 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...and red leather
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0316182521-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 16 Mar, Sally Manton wrote:
> Julia writes re we-can-all-guess-who in red leather trouser:
>
> <Unfortunately, I lost the frame grab copies I used as the screensaver
> at work when my 'puter died on me just before Christmas, and I haven't
> found the backup disk yet <pout>.
>
> Oooohhh. When you do find them, is there any way you can share?
I think they're in the gallery on my web page...
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:37:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Claudia Mastroianni <cmastr@fas.harvard.edu>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] worst opening (fwd)
Message-Id: <199903170737.CAA28542@login2.fas.harvard.edu>
I think Judith meant this to go to the list... so her next post on the
subject makes a bit more sense. :) She corrects my memory below:
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:38:09 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Subject: worst opening
To: Claudia Mastroianni <cmastr@fas.harvard.edu>
On Tue 16 Mar, Claudia Mastroianni wrote:
>
> Pherber@aol.com writes:
> : cmastr@fas.harvard.edu writes:
> : > Claudia (peering out from lurkerdom)
> : > "Three million years in the future, the only suriving human
> : > rebel is Kerr Avon, his only companions, a creature that evolved
> : > from his pet thief, and a hologram of his dead shipmate, Gan.
> : > Additional; it has been two months since we discovered the still
> : > working ancient cloning facilities in deep space and Avon is
> : > running out of Blake's to shoot." --John McKenzie
>
> : Claudia, this is hilarious! Is there more of it somewhere?
>
> Alas, no, to my recollection. That's a quote from a thread on this very
> mailing list from *years* ago (while I haven't been on continually since
> the list was formed, I was first on soon after its creation--Nov. '92).
> I could be misremembering and it could have been part of something larger,
> but I think it was just a spectacular one-liner.
Actually, it comes from a competition that developed rather informally to devise
the worst possible opening sentence for a story. It had to be a single sentence
and no longer. Some of the results were wonderfully excruciating and the whole
set, including the winners was eventually published in 'The Way Back'. That
zine is nearly out of print now as I only have 5 copies left.
I think it may be time we had a new competition...
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:06:13 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <c87e2f5c.36ef7e95@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Mistral wrote:
> Avon can be hurt, or he can laugh; and
> the usual reaction is to laugh on the surface, and be
> hurt on some deeper level. This is where the real
> struggle between Avon and Tarrant begins -- with
> Tarrant basically announcing that he's outsmarted
> Avon; there's not a much more direct challenge he
> could have issued, short of slapping Avon in the face
> with a glove.
I don't think Avon's ego is that easily bruised (but then *my* Avon seems to
be uniformly more emotionally strong and stable than your Avon). I think Avon
found the entire situation highly amusing. And I also think it contributed to
his quickly accepting Tarrant as a member of the crew: "This is a bright kid,
we could use him." Though there would also be a reaction such as Nina
suggested:
> This is one of my favorite A/T scenes - I love the look on Avon's face!
> Always makes me think "He's gonna get you for that, Tarrant!"
"And I also think I'll keep him around so that I can get some payback time."
:)
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:06:12 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <e5ae16c4.36ef7e94@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Sally wrote:
> Most, not all...I really don't think Jenna believed in his good side
> (which would have made her possible return in Series 3, without Blake,
> rather interesting). I think Gan hadn't made up his mind.
I'll keep an eye out for that as I rewatch the early seasons. I can recall
times when Jenna and Avon appeared on the same wavelength. I think she was
always aware that he had his own agenda, but I'm not sure she ever fully
believed he would do something she would consider to be unacceptable. But
that may be because both of their ideas of what is/isn't unacceptable
coincided. Jenna wasn't an idealist either. I'll also look at Gan. My
impression was that Gan tended to see the best in his shipmates, but I could
be wrong. That gentle voice might be misleading me.
> Avon was too
> complicated for him, but maybe he trusted Blake's hold on Avon. And I'm
> not sure about Soolin.
Soolin, I think, viewed Avon much like Jenna did. She knew he'd use them for
bait, for instance, if he deemed it necessary. Not something she'd like, but
something she'd understand on a pragmatic level. She trusted him to trust her
in "Warlord."
> <And one thing Blake never fully understood about Avon was how much Avon
> needed his own space (emotionally and physically). >
>
> Sorry, Carol, but this I *really* don't agree with. I know I've read
> similar views before, but I don't think there's any evidence at all that
> Avon felt crowded by Blake. Not physically - they are both extremely
> comfortable moving into each other's personal space, Avon making the
> move just as often as Blake;
An interesting thing about Avon is that he invades personal space quite often.
Perhaps he's developed good instincts (for the most part) of when people might
allow that. As for emotional space, that is something that would build up
with time. It might not be at all evident at first.
> feels stressed. Even when they're arguing (and you don't get that level
> of creative fighting unless they're comfortable doing it). Nor crowded
> mentally - Blake quite clearly never asked Avon for an intellectual or
> emotional commitment to his cause, or to him personally, just for his
> practical help. Avon made the decision that it went further into
> personal loyalty, and I don't see any evidence that Blake imposed on the
> loyalty.
I never saw that Avon made a commitment beyond personal loyalty (but I'll look
for it). And while Blake never clearly asked for an emotional commitment,
most of what he did put that pressure on his shipmates. It's not the kind of
pressure an introvert can easily tolerate (IMHO). The wording of his message
to shipmates in "Trial," for instance. When he said he didn't know if they
trusted him enough or cared about him enough to ask for a message. Blake was
very sincere when he wrote that, and not trying to manipulate anyone (as far
as my judgment goes), but it's the type of line that would (IMHO) make an
introvert cringe and ask "What does he want from me?"
The same with the beginning of "Pressure Point." Blake is clearly giving them
a choice about participating, but there's emotional pressure behind the choice
because they care about him. And an introvert would react--"He knows we care
about him and that we don't have a choice," not realizing that Blake genuinely
thought they had a choice. It's that the two different personality types
can't understand each other. Blake doesn't intend to manipulate, but Avon
can't look at Blake's actions in any other way.
> For most of the two seasons, there is no evidence whatsoever that Avon
> is finding dealing personally with Blake difficult (exasperating,
> infuriating, mentally stimulating, I can see). The cracks appear late in
> Season 2 (somewhere between Voice from the Past and The Keeper), and IMO
> are due to the increasing pressures as the search for Star One.
The cracks do appear in Season 2, and the reason I don't see them as part of
Star One is because the nature of Avon's yearning--when expressed--is so very
personal. He wants to be free of Blake. As noted above, the reason the
cracks are late in appearing is because it is a build up of tolerance. You
cope, you cope, then you can't cope anymore.
> Given
> their profound differences of outlook and opinion - and the dangers they
> are all living under - it is a testament to their bond that it takes
> that long for it to happen.
I agree with you there. And I think it is a testimony to how much Avon
genuinely liked Blake. I kind of liken it to two people who genuinely love
each other but can't live together (because of basic personality conflicts).
> Could you give me examples of where *you* think Avon is made
> uncomfortable in this way? I promise to look at them in with an open
> mind (well, semi-open...<g>)
I can do it better after I've watched first and second seasons. :) But I'll
give you what I can remember now. The obvious ones are PP and SO when Avon
indicates his desire to be away from Blake. PP: you'll be put in charge of
the new government on Earth and I'll get the Liberator. And his "I need to be
free" in Star One. Another moment is in "Redemption." Blake has called Avon
down to where he is to help him, without explaining why he needed him (with
the "kissy-kissy" power cord). Avon gets there and takes care of the problem.
Blake tells him he owes him one, and Avon very seriously says he'll remind him
about that. I think that was indication that Avon was not happy about being
put in that position (of having to save Blake's life). My own interpretation
(could be wrong) is that he also resented that Blake had called him down there
without explaining; Avon wants Blake to be straightforward with him. But what
really gets me in that scene is the look Blake gives Avon after Avon makes the
comment about reminding him. It's not a nice look, and this is someone who
just saved Blake's life, never mind that he wasn't very gracious about it. To
me, that look shows how much they were each getting on each other's nerves
(not just Blake on Avon's nerves). It's (to me) a basic personality conflict,
and the longer they were together, the more it was like walls boxing them in.
I contrast that to Avon and Tarrant who developed a better working
relationship over time. While the two of them had their differences and
argued just as vehemently as Avon and Blake at times, the personality conflict
wasn't present. They grew more tolerant, as opposed to less tolerant, over
time.
> See above. If there *is* space (I'm granting you a better knowledge of
> the Avon-Tarrant relationship) it's because both men wanted it.
I agree. They also sensed how much space the other one needed it, which is why
they grew to tolerate each other so well.
>With
> Blake-Avon, I've no evidence that Avon wanted any more space than he
> had, and in fact, the space between them was breached by him as often as
> not. After all, Avon related on completely different grounds with the
> two men.
I don't recall any instances when Blake breached Avon's physical space during
first-second seasons. (But I'll keep an eye out for that.) It may be that
Avon's self control wouldn't allow him to react when Blake breached his
personal physical space. He wouldn't want Blake to know about that
vulnerability. But that does seem to be what is happening on GP. At that
point Avon did need the physical space, and Blake didn't realize it. As for
emotional space, as mentioned above that's why I see Avon getting more and
more desperate to be away from Blake.
> I think he trusts both Tarrant and Blake by this stage (which indicates
> how much he thinks of Tarrant). But it wasn't a matter of choosing, he
> had nothing to choose *from*. As I said somewhere else, Tarrant made the
> accusation, clearly, unambiguously. And Blake didn't seem to be denying
> it, although Avon is asking - almost pleading with - Blake *to* deny it.
I think Avon wants to trust Blake, but I don't think he's willing to take him
on faith at this point. He is willing to take Tarrant on faith. He doesn't
ask Tarrant "why do you think Blake betrayed me?" And that's a question that
would be the first thing he'd ask if the roles had been reversed. If Blake
had come into the tracking gallery and told Avon Tarrant betrayed him, Avon
would ask Blake questions, not Tarrant. Because he's been with Tarrant and
hasn't seen Blake in a long time.
> I think that if Blake had done so, clearly and concisely, Avon would
> have believed him over Tarrant, at least long enough to avert disaster;
I think if Blake had stopped and given him a clear, precise answer then Avon
would indeed have been willing to hear what both men had to say. He didn't
want to believe Blake betrayed him.
But as for what would have happened next...saying the Federation didn't show
up...now that would have been interesting. I wonder how Avon would react to
Blake's testing his pilot. "Didn't you trust *me* enough to accept a member
of my team?" He would also chide Blake, "And if you were going to do
something like that, why did you stupidly let him escape and get to me first?"
And I don't think he'd be too happy that his pilot's injuries not only were
neglected but Tarrant was put in a position where he was battered further (by
the technician). Then we have the mess with Klyn and the technician to sort
out. Are they dead? Blake was a bit careless with his people. Would the
Scorpio crew want anything to do with him?
> Then spent a sizable part of the episode trying to keep Avon out of
> Klegg's hands, even when he had to thump the man senseless to do it. No
> sacrifice is too great...
LOL! And I'll bet there was many a time when Tarrant replayed that moment
with relish and wished the opportunity would present itself again. :)
I'm doing far too much rambling...
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:26:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Tarrant and Dayna's arm
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990317132444.6791D-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Form the side panel for the start of the third season on the new video
releases. Still don't know whether they'll do a fourth season logo yet, of
course.
I wish they'd done it the other way round - had the 2nd season crew (my
favourite) across those videos, and then Libby on the 3rd season. Still,
who am I to complain?
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:43:23 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <46eb9f93.36efa36b@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Joanne wrote:
> <mock contrite> Carol, I'm sorry about your affliction, and that I'm
> exacerbating it <smile>
;-P
> <grin> With the man in black around? For some of us, that's a certainty.
But Travis was only around for first and second seasons. <g,d,rlh>
> He's adaptable material, isn't he? <smile>
As long as you have that that little electrical gizmo, because military and
civilian current flow is different. ;)
> And both Vila and Avon would've been
> battleweary to a greater or lesser extent by then. Cally? Her idealism
> remained, but that battleweariness was working on her too.
That's a neat observation. I like.
Wake up to any curly new philosophical ideals, Joanne? ;)
Carol Mc
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #103
**************************************