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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 137
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Servalan not killing Avon (fwd)
[B7L] Re:Bullies, was PiC Rant
[B7L] wand
[B7L] Re: B7 telemovie
Re: [B7L] Inflection
Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Re: [B7L] Re:Bullies, was PiC Rant
Re: [B7L] web chat
re [B7L]: telemovie
Re: [B7L] Re: How big are the Liberator and Scorpio?
Re: [B7L] Inflection
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #135
[B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish
[B7L] Avon & Bathing
Re: [B7L] Re: How big are the Liberator and Scorpio?
[B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
RE: [B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
[B7L] Re: Avon & the housework
Re: [B7L] Inflection
Re: [B7L] Re: Blood feuds
[B7L]Re: Avon & Rubbish
Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Re: [B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
Re: [B7L] Re: How big are the Liberator and Scorpio?
Re: Man of Iron ; was [B7L] Telemovie
Re: [B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
Re: re [B7L]: telemovie
Re: [B7L] web chat
Re: [B7L] Re:Bullies, was PiC Rant
[B7L] videos
RE: re [B7L]: telemovie
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:51:19 -0400
From: mark gray <marcobi@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon (fwd)
Message-ID: <199904181751_MC2-7278-5A53@compuserve.com>
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>> Re Man of Iron, Judith Proctor wrote
>>
>>> Besides, Servalan would have killed him when she had the chance
>>
>> Are you sure? She had several chances to kill him which she
>> didn't take
Tanja wrote
>> What about Rumors of Death ? I never believed Servalan wanted to send a
corpse to the Liberator
Sevalan ideed would never have killed Avon as she relied on him for almost
a mind match or mate.
Sevalan needed Avon to be there as an adversary and likewise with Avon
would not have killed her.
From the near total destruction of the Federation as an effective fighting
force in aftermath after which it never really recovered all that was
really left for Servalan after was Avon.
>> but ordering him to put a braclete on in a pretext they were bouth able
to save face
Although Servalan would not have killed Avon I see this example as an
continuation of the mind games which were played out throughout the series.
Games however are dangerous with unpredictable outcomes.
Mark
Omnia mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:41:13 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re:Bullies, was PiC Rant
Message-ID: <371A5F89.22902D7@connexus.apana.org.au>
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Mistral on the Avon-Vila relationship and evidence of bullying:
>...I don't consider simple verbal savagery bullying.
>I consider threats bullying.
Schools would disagree a lot with that. So would other spousal abuse
situations.
Sarah Berry.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:02:54 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] wand
Message-ID: <371A649E.FCC3595A@connexus.apana.org.au>
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Alison wrote:
>...'if I could wave a magic feminist wand' (ha ha) and
change the world...
What does a feminist magic wand look like? I was imagining a vibrator...
Sarah Berry.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:12:28 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: B7 telemovie
Message-ID: <371A66DC.37A9CF5A@connexus.apana.org.au>
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Judith wrote:
> Someone once said that a good trauma team could easily
>have saved Blake.
Oh no an ER/B7 crossover!
Sarah Berry
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:43:01 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Inflection
Message-ID: <19990418234301.28834.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Martin wrote:
>Have you ever noticed how inflection of delivered lines can change >the banal into the magnetic? Or vice versa.
Or, indeed, the hysterical. For some reason, the way Avon says "Battlestations" in Redemption never failed to send my brother onto the floor in tears of laughter. Then again, the bit in Mission to Destiny where Avon uses the word 'replaced' twice within a minute has him holding his sides too. Something about the way he says it - damned if I can hear what he's talking about.
<great big grin> We'll forget about a certain scene in Hostage, unless Penny "Just one more word... word... word...word...word from you" Dreadful chooses to remind us! (Sorry, Penny, but I couldn't resist the attempt.)
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:49:45 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Message-ID: <19990418234945.65097.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>Well, no, it's as if the Angel Gabriel said that he has the Second
>Coming pencilled in for a week next Thursday, but he's not sure if
>Jesus will be too busy to come for it, in which case, we'll just have
>to make do with Brian.
<groan> Oh no. No, no, no, no. Kathryn probably didn't mean to suggest this, it's just my dreadful sense of humour. <self-aimed snarl> Brian Lighthill, not "Life of" Brian, you silly girl. Ye gods, someone was worried about the idea of an ER/B7 crossover. How much more worried should we be about the idea of a B7/Monty Python crossover?
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:56:17 +0100
From: "David A McIntee" <master@sol.co.uk>
To: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>,
"Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Message-Id: <199904190020.BAA19784@gnasher.sol.co.uk>
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----------
> From: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
> Dangermouse, you shouldn't be waiting on permission, and getting
frustrated.
Actually I'm more busy working on Voyager stuff...
> You should work as fast as you can now to get a script down - or at least
a
> complete treatment - and you should submit it to absolutely everyone who
> might be involved, plus you should send it to your agent
I don't have one.
But rest assured that when the office opens tomorrow, I'll be getting my
bosses at the Beeb to find out who is in charge, so that I can get in
touch, just in case...
--
"When two hunters go after the same prey they usually end up shooting each
other in the back - and we don't want to shoot each other in the back, do
we?"
http://members.aol.com/vulcancafe
-------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:48:27 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Message-ID: <19990419004827.19258.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
I said:
><groan> Oh no. No, no, no, no. Kathryn probably didn't mean to >suggest this, it's just my dreadful sense of humour. <self-aimed snarl> >Brian Lighthill, not "Life of" Brian, you silly girl.
It has finally crossed my mind that it might not be my sense of humour after all. Mind you, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't, it still came close to causing a severe spluttering incident.
Regards
Joanne
(who should be attending to the Consumer Claims Act (NSW) 1998, not to the thought of wascally webels named Vila Westal, or Tawwant, or Owac, or anything else...)
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:27:45 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Message-ID: <371A7880.D9CEDCC3@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> >Well, no, it's as if the Angel Gabriel said that he has the Second
> >Coming pencilled in for a week next Thursday, but he's not sure if
> >Jesus will be too busy to come for it, in which case, we'll just have
> >to make do with Brian.
>
> <groan> Oh no. No, no, no, no. Kathryn probably didn't mean to suggest this, it's just my dreadful sense of humour. <self-aimed snarl> Brian Lighthill, not "Life of" Brian, you silly girl. Ye gods, someone was worried about the idea of an ER/B7 crossover. How much more worried should we be about the idea of a B7/Monty Python crossover?
You're not the only one who saw this. I think such a crossoverwould be delicious.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:56:14 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Bullies, was PiC Rant
Message-ID: <371A7F2E.E8544982@ptinet.net>
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Sarah Berry wrote:
> Mistral on the Avon-Vila relationship and evidence of bullying:
> >...I don't consider simple verbal savagery bullying.
> >I consider threats bullying.
>
> Schools would disagree a lot with that. So would other spousal abuse
> situations.
Yes, nowadays, when the world has become so very PC. But,
that's a very recent development. I'm not a total geezer, but I
do remember when people were expected to learn to deal with
these kinds of situations as they grew up: "Sticks and stones
may break my bones, but words can never harm me." Comes
from valuing free speech, I suppose, although I don't think it's
nice to say nasty things to people. I believe the only things one
shouldn't be *allowed* to say are threats, and telling deliberate
lies about people.
I don't see any evidence that Vila *ever* was frightened of
Avon by something Avon said, or that Vila had any *specific*
fear of Avon, up until 'Orbit'. (I think he felt quite comfortable
and safe with Avon, had let himself relax *too* much, since he
should have known what Avon was capable of. But the contrast
is what makes 'Orbit' powerfully affecting.) Vila is apparently a
lot tougher than 20th-century Terran society. First you get the
verbal police, then you get the mind police, then you get
something that makes the Federation look like a benign utopia.
I'd far rather deal with verbal savagery, thanks.
Mistral the Amoral
--
"Words are no more than words."--Zukan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:17:48 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] web chat
Message-ID: <371A843C.61EF9057@ptinet.net>
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Judith quotes Chris Boucher on Avon:
> "I mistrust clear black and whites."
>
> "The line between freedom fighter and terrorist is a fairly thin one."
>
> "Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out."
Yes, now *there's* somebody who understands Avon; this is
a very good description of the character *I* see and admire. And
the second line is, for my money, an even better description of
Blake :)
Grins,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:40:34 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: re [B7L]: telemovie
Message-ID: <029901be8a06$87a49660$8c458cd4@default>
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Well, since everyone else has been having their say...
Although I've not heard either of the two R4 plays (working on both
broadcast dates), I must admit my heart went cold when I heard about the
proposed telemovie. From the comments on this list about 7fC and TSe, I
have no real interest in listening to either of them. If the same people
are behind the movie project, I doubt if I would want to watch it.
The comments on the radio plays suggest to me that Barry Letts' concept of
SF derives largely or solely from his work on Dr Who. Who was very
free-ranging in concept, and worked pretty well as a springboard for
speculative fantasy without an imperative to be completely self-consistent.
B7 is much tighter in scope, set in one particular galaxy (or portion
thereof) within a limited time period. New stories therefore have to be
woven into a pre-established background.
Letts' R4 scripts, from what I've heard of them, don't seem to take this
into consideration. They also seem to be stuck in the same frame of
reference to Golden Age SF that is surely now utterly outmoded. SF, even on
television, is now slicker, smarter and subtler than it was in those
bumbling days, and audiences are likewise more sophisticated. Writers like
Letts, however, would appear not to be. He shouldn't be allowed anywhere
near the writing of the movie. And if Man of Iron is anything to go by,
Paul Darrow should be firmly handcuffed until the script is irrevocably
finalised.
State-of-the-art SFX are all very well, but that dreadful Merlin thing they
showed on C4 over Easter had those. Didn't help it much, did they? ('Oh
Mordwed, you weally are a wascal...').
I agree with Judith, the script is what matters most. I sincerely hope it
doesn't revolve around some galaxy-shaking McGuffin that has no real part in
the B7 universe, as appears to be the case with the radio plays. Dr Who
might get away with it, but more 'realistic' B7 does better without such
things. A recognisable continuity with the universe of the aired series is
equally as important as continuity with the characters, IMO - I don't see
much point in getting the characters right if the background is all to pot.
(And vice versa, of course.)
I also agree with Sally that we as fans have no innate imperative to regard
a new movie project as canon, though we can of course choose to accept it if
we actually like the end result (which we yet might, you never know).
I daresay most of us have at least some idea of what kind of movie we'd like
to see. I would definitely want a PGP rather than a bolt-on addition to the
established canon, preferably set 15-20 years after 'Blake' (makes more
sense than the actors pretending to be far younger than they really are.) I
would want a story that builds on the series rather than simply adding to
it, and definitely not simply paying homage to it. I would also want it to
be stylish and sophisticated in its presentation, a B7 movie for the new
millennium - get the Prodigy to do the soundtrack or something. And
topical, witty, ironic and ambiguous. I would also want a prominent guest
role for Sigourney Weaver. Oh, and lots of penguins too...
But seriously, I think it's important that the fans are consulted before
going ahead (this is, after all, sound marketing practice). Sadly, it does
seem at this stage that Lighthill and whoever else may be involved are more
keen to unveil the finished meisterwerk as a fait accompli to which we are
all expected to pay dutiful homage. Dangermouse's remarks about talentless
egos have an uncomfortable ring of truth to them. (But a real 'incestuous
fanwank mess' would be the product of fans being in a position to determine
the ultimate shape of the production. The original series wasn't made by
fans, and I don't think any new movie should be either.)
Since the new Horizon site seems to be offering us the opportunity to voice
our opinions, maybe we should do so. Whatever you think of Horizon, they
alone in all of fandom are in a position to make the fan voice heard. It
probably won't make much difference, but wittering away on this list
certainly won't.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:33:01 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: How big are the Liberator and Scorpio?
Message-ID: <029d01be8a06$8b25cde0$8c458cd4@default>
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Murray wrote
+AD4- A friend recently lent me 'SFX' No. 49 (March 1999), which has, on
+AD4-page 29, entitled 'My rocket's bigger than yours+ACE-' a comparison of the
+AD4-sizes of famous sci-fi spaceships, using diagrams. The Liberator, I saw,
+AD4-was about 450 metres (1350 feet) long, roughly two thirds the length of an
+AD4-Imperial Star Destroyer. Scorpio was about 42 metres (126 feet) long.
So bang goes my 4th Season plot to smuggle Spiny Norman aboard the Scorpio.
Damn damn damn...
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:10:56 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Inflection
Message-ID: <029c01be8a06$8a4b9a80$8c458cd4@default>
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Martin asked:
+AD4-Have you ever noticed how inflection of delivered lines can change the
+AD4-banal into the magnetic? Or vice versa.
One misdelivered line that always makes me cringe is Vila's 'Who are you?'
to Pella in Power (when he first realises she's there). It totally fails to
convey the spirit of 'Who the f--- are you?' that would have been more
appropriate to the situation.
Even worse is Shad's greeting to Jarvik in Harvest - 'Hello, Sir.' Most...
unmilitary.
I recall Brian Croucher's 'Youuuuu.... flatteryourself' becoming a
catchphrase for our rolegaming group. (We used to take the mick out of
early Travis II something chronic - 'I'm gonna get you one day, Blake. And
when I do.... I'm gonna scratch yer eyes out.')
(Aside to Penny: I do actually like Travis II, very much. From 'Trial'
onwards he was superb. But his first couple of eps... well, maybe we can
blame the director.)
A special award to Jacqueline Pearce for her convincing delivery of Allan
Prior's immortal line in Hostage, 'This a breach of maximum security. The
punishment is total.' Total what, I ask? However, another Prior classic,
'They have the Animal, they have him' would seem to be beyond even her
abilities.
I feel sorry for the cast sometimes.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:00:50 EDT
From: TMKEENE@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #135
Message-ID: <6d3356fe.244be852@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Please quit sending me e-mail if not i will contact aol .
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 04:00:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish
Message-Id: <199904190401.EAA08124@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Alison, I completely agree that Avon would take out the garbage-- if only
because he didn't trust whoever he was living with to do it!
I think his personal fastidiousness is a significant, and often overlooked,
part of his sex appeal. Cleanliness and good grooming really do go a long
way toward making a man attractive to women-- a thing that all too few of
them seem to be aware of <sigh>.
We know he bathes-- it's mentioned in the aired canon. :) And he just
=looks= so appealingly clean.
Interestingly enough, this characteristic appears to be something that
leaked into the character from his portrayer-- like Vila's catnaps.
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:23:47 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon & Bathing
Message-ID: <19990419042347.25138.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Sarah T wrote:
>We know he bathes-- it's mentioned in the aired canon. :)
Of course it is, having just looked it up (Rescue). But I found myself needing to look up the reference for another reason - ie it is in Hoyle's novelisation but is it actually in the script as broadcast? And it was.
What am I talking about? Oh, just wondering how much one should speculate on this list about just how Soolin managed to distract Mr Survival Instincts on Overload long enough to change gun clips. Though it's more than likely that someone has thought of it before for fanfic purposes. <grin> Knowing some people...
Regards
Joanne
(in a good mood today)
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:16:49 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: How big are the Liberator and Scorpio?
Message-ID: <19990419051649.7342.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
>So bang goes my 4th Season plot to smuggle Spiny Norman aboard >the Scorpio. Damn damn damn...
Out of curiosity, where would Dinsdale have fitted into it? I can see the Scorpio as animated Terry Gilliam (on a distinctly unstable trajectory), by the way, but it conjures up the horrible spectre of Dayna and Soolin being voiced by Terry Jones and John Cleese. Though it can't be much worse than Paula Wilcox's version of Soolin, can it? Far more cheerful than the real thing...
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:46:20 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
Message-ID: <19990419074632.20662.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Let me first say that I think all three of the possibly-Alpha males (and the Delta for that matter) could behave appallingly when they felt it necessary. Saying that Tarrant bullies Vila is *not* picking on him any more than saying Avon would too have thrown Vila off the shuttle (and Vila would have turfed Avon out as well) is picking on them.
Yes, Tarrant bullies Vila in City. He's frustrated, he wants this job done at whatever cost, and he lashes out in am understandable if rather nasty way. And I don't know that he ever comes to believe that there anything particularly wrong with the bullying, since he repeats it in Moloch and only stops because it becomes clear it isn't going to work any more. I tend to think it's a hangover from his military training, where (being the Federation) coercion and brow-beating and a fair amount of contempt were probably the normal and acceptable methods of dealing with lower ranks or weaker people, and I like to think that he manages to shed quite a lot of it in the 4th season as he grows older.
Tiger M writes:
<Vila seemed to get over any real fear of Tarrant after City at the Edge of the World. In Moloch, Vila knew Tarrant wouldn't kill him. When Tarrant pulled a gun on him, he was hurt and disappointed, but not afraid.>
Whether or not he means to do what he threatens in City *does not matter* - he intends Vila to believe it, and that makes it bullying. The fact that, in Moloch, Vila *knows* he won't do it doesn�t matter. Tarrant again intends him to believe it (well, if he doesn't, he�d be a blithering idiot to try it, and he isn't.)
<The other thing I noticed that many fans seem to miss is that neither Vila nor Tarrant hold any grudges over either incident.>
That Vila doesn't hold a grudge is to *his* credit, and cannot be held as a point in favour of Tarrant. And I'm a bit puzzled as to why you say Tarrant doesn't hold a grudge - why on earth should he (because Vila learned *not* to be brow-beaten)? Tarrant has nothing to forgive, just to be forgiven for.
In reply to Mistral�s:
<I remember Vila complaining repeatedly to Avon that Tarrant couldn't be trusted (Traitor and Orbit spring to mind)>
Carol says:
<I think it's important to put these incidents into context. In both cases Vila was complaining about Tarrant because he was afraid. Not afraid of Tarrant but afraid of the situation.>
Sorry, Carol, I think you're stretching the context here too far to let Toothy off. Yes, Vila's afraid of the whole situation, but it's Tarrant he chooses to make the focus of that fear. He doesn't *have* to say what he does, he could harp on about the situation itself, the strangers he doesn't trust etc, but some of his fear (and mistrust) is definitely focused on Tarrant and his (un)trustworthiness in Vila's eyes.
< It really hadn't anything to do with Tarrant.>
If it wasn't, he wouldn't have said that Tarrant - and only Tarrant - couldn't be trusted. When he criticises Avon, it's equally specific. Vila gets on better with Tarrant as time goes by, but I don't think he really trusts him any more than he trusts Avon (which he doesn't IMO - he trusts Avon's self-interest, which he recognises as akin in strength to his own).
<I saw a definite change in Vila's tone in the beginning of BLAKE. There was an edge of challenge and a harshness when he talked to Avon.>
I sort of agree. He's cooling down, but he hadn't forgiven by a long stretch (which is ironic to me, because - as I said above - it�s Avon's self-interest he trusted, not Avon himself, so why he was surprised when that self-interest turned ugly...) I think the difference between Vila forgiving Tarrant and not forgiving Avon (well, not yet anyway) is that he *had* realised Tarrant didn't mean it, that it was bullying pure and simple. At the point we leave them, he still believed that Avon had meant to kill him.
<Wouldn't Avon's behavior in 'Terminal' qualify him as a bully, both when he stuck the gun in Tarrant's belly and when he threatened to kill anyone who followed him? Mind you, by my definition of bully (the person making the threats has to be willing to carry out the threats) neither Tarrant nor Avon is a bully. But it seems, to me, that if Tarrant's threats make him a bully, then Avon's threats make him one.>
I cannot understand your definition, I�m afraid. Surely if you are trying to coerce someone by threats you intend them to believe, deliberately try to hurt and scare them (the bit about Avon and Cally is IMO intended to hurt as well as scare), the fact that you haven't let them know that you *don't* intend to carry out the threats cannot absolve you? Tarrant is trying to terrorize Vila into submission, into believing he was in real danger. That constitutes bullying all right. And if he never means to do it - if he is lying to intimidate someone weaker in both physical strength and will - that does *not* make it any better.
Now as far as Avon in Terminal is concerned, calling the first instance bullying would be letting *him* off easily, calling it a much milder thing than it is. As I've argued before, it isn't a threat, it is - almost - murder. Avon *does* almost kill Tarrant, pulls himself back, and *then* warns Tarrant to get out of the way.
In the second instance, he's trying to protect them, which does mitigate the offence ('don�t follow me into extreme danger, just stay here where it's safe and escape at the slightest sign of trouble - or I'll kill you.' Not one of his more logical moments.) In City, there is no way Tarrant could claim he is trying to protect Vila by sending him into danger without help, back-up or a means of escape.
<Tarrant wasn't threatening Vila for the fun of it. In CITY Tarrant's goal was to get needed crystals for the weaponry systems. In MOLOCH Tarrant's goal was to complete the mission, as in to find out what Servalan was up to on Sardos. Both goals were meant to benefit the crew. And Tarrant believes the overall good of the crew is important. If Blake's crusade is an excuse for his behavior, why isn't Tarrant's goal equally valid?>
Blake's reasons are not to me a better excuse than Tarrant's. I take it we�re talking of that bit in Time Squad where he says anyone who wants to leave just has to say so? (That�s the only bit I recall *where* he could be seen as bullying. Most of the time he gives orders, they argue but they obey. He�s far better at this authority bit than either Tarrant or Avon.)
But there's a big difference in the scale of what they're doing. Blake is in effect taking on the whole crew (including his equals in will and in claim to the Liberator, Avon and Jenna), in a ruthless and spectacularly successful bluff for control. Tarrant is forcing one single crew member - the weakest - into submission, with behaviour he knows better than to try on any of the rest. And yes, Mistral is right - Tarrant has not earned at the time of City the right to order Vila around. I can see his excuses - I can sympathise with his frustration - but his behaviour is ugly. And the fact that Blake and Avon (and Vila for that matter) are capable of just as ugly (if different) actions does not absolve him one little bit.
Carol:
<Actually, the first person Tarrant threatens is Avon in DAWN.>
And Mistral:
<If you're referring to his 'Some day, Avon, I may have to kill you', yes, he threatens Avon, but no coercion is involved, so that's not, by my definition, bullying; it's just a threat.>
Not even that, IMO. It�s a statement made after the emergency, and he says it almost reflectively, as if he's just realised something he didn't know before <g>. I rather like it - it's an indication he�s realising just how impossibly aggravating living and working with Avon is going to be.
<I'd say he's an equal opportunity snarler when the situation calls for it.>
Yes...but not an equal opportunity browbeater. That he reserves for Vila. Perhaps because trying to browbeat any of the others might leave him without a whole skin...
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:32:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990419093117.6791B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jacqueline said:
>I saw an episode of The Pretender today, in which Miss Parker tells
>someone: "Broots may be an idiot, but he's my idiot. Nobody gets to
>threaten him but me." Do other Pretender fans on this list also think
>that Miss Parker is very much like Avon, and Broots like Vila?
Ooh, yes - and I wish they'd damn well start transmitting it again in the
UK :(
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:07:10 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon & the housework
Message-ID: <19990419080713.15771.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Alisaon writes:
<I think Avon is exactly the sort of man who would take out the
rubbish (take equal turns with the cleaning and cooking etc.) because
he is fastidious, competent, and used to looking after himself.>
And he did his share of the boring stuff around the Liberator. I
think he'd have a good claim for nearly as much teleport duty as
the women (of course, most of his was earlier in the piece.)
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:28:10 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@mail.geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Inflection
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990419022810.007c4100@mail.geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:43 PM 4/18/99 PDT, Joanne MacQueen wrote:
><great big grin> We'll forget about a certain scene in Hostage, unless
Penny "Just one more word... word... word...word...word from you" Dreadful
chooses to remind us! (Sorry, Penny, but I couldn't resist the attempt.)
FINALACT also has an Australian division, you know. We're in the Tarrant
Nostra's basement, under the washtubs.
(Neil is apparently already aware of our UK branch.)
Seriously, though, always thought it was T2's off-kilter delivery that led
to so much of his lunatic cachet. For them as appreciate his lunatic cachet.
--The Dread Pirate Penny
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 04:41:24 PDT
From: "Stephen Date" <stephendate@hotmail.com>
To: julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blood feuds
Message-ID: <19990419114148.53183.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Julia wrote:
>In message <19990415120402.44100.qmail@hotmail.com>, Stephen Date
><stephendate@hotmail.com> writes
>>However, the enterprising writer of fan-fic need not despair. After
>>all Teal and Vandor now have no need or desire to protect Servalan.
>>Wouldn't it be amusing if she was called into her superior's office
>>one morning.
>Is that one up for grabs, Stephen? I can think of several writers who
>might like to play with that idea:-)
Feel free to help yourself. Let me know how you get on with it.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:40:49 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L]Re: Avon & Rubbish
Message-ID: <01be8a61$dab18380$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sarah T said:
>We know he bathes-- it's mentioned in the aired canon. :) And he just
>=looks= so appealingly clean.
>Interestingly enough, this characteristic appears to be something that
>leaked into the character from his portrayer-- like Vila's catnaps.
Could you expand on the last statement? It went right over my head.
Julie Horner
Software Engineer
Lincoln Software
Tel: +44 (0) 1625 616722
Fax: +44(0) 1625 616780
E-mail: julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com
Web: http://www.lincolnsoftware.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:44:49 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Telemovie
Message-ID: <19990419214449.C1594@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 04:49:45PM -0700, Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> >Well, no, it's as if the Angel Gabriel said that he has the Second
> >Coming pencilled in for a week next Thursday, but he's not sure if
> >Jesus will be too busy to come for it, in which case, we'll just have
> >to make do with Brian.
>
> <groan> Oh no. No, no, no, no. Kathryn probably didn't mean to suggest
> this, it's just my dreadful sense of humour. <self-aimed snarl> Brian
> Lighthill, not "Life of" Brian, you silly girl.
Rest assured, milady, it was indeed "Life of" Brian to whom I was
referring. I toyed with the idea of explicitly saying so, but decided
to let it be, so that those who got it would get it, and those who
didn't wouldn't worry. Unfortunately, the coincidence that Mr.
Lighthill's first name is also Brian, added to the confusion.
I suppose if I'd said "Fred Nurk" then the actual *point* would have
been clearer. But I couldn't resist the "Brian" quip.
Which is ironic, since my knowledge of Monty Python consists almost
entirely of having it quoted at me by people. Which means, of course,
that I only know the best bits. (-8
> Ye gods, someone was
> worried about the idea of an ER/B7 crossover. How much more worried
> should we be about the idea of a B7/Monty Python crossover?
Well, someone just wrote an utterly hilarious
Highlander/Monty-Python-and-the-Holy-Grail crossover on HLFIC - it
must be in the air...
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:37:17 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
Message-ID: <19990419213717.B1594@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 11:34:12PM +0200, Jacqueline Thijsen wrote:
> I saw an episode of The Pretender today, in which Miss Parker tells someone:
> "Broots may be an idiot, but he's my idiot. Nobody gets to threaten him but
> me." Do other Pretender fans on this list also think that Miss Parker is
> very much like Avon, and Broots like Vila?
Much as I love The Pretender, and much as I love Blake's 7, I'd say
no. Or maybe it's because I like them both so much. Miss Parker is
Miss Parker, and Broots is Broots and Avon is Avon and Vila is Vila,
and they aren't the same at all.
On the other hand, the *attitude*, "he's my idiot and no one gets to
threaten him but me" is delightfully common between them.
However, the ones I sympathize with the most of the four are Avon more
than Miss Parker, and Broots more than Vila. Hmmm - the computer
programmers. I wonder what that says about me?
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:41:14 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: How big are the Liberator and Scorpio?
Message-ID: <9d1592dd.244c8c7a@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 4/18/99 7:48:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
> Murray wrote
> Scorpio was about 42 metres (126 feet) long.
> Neil replied:
> So bang goes my 4th Season plot to smuggle Spiny Norman aboard the Scorpio.
> Damn damn damn...
Well, doesn't that depend on exactly *how* paranoid you make Dinsdale at the
time? <grin>
I think it would be very interesting to have Avon meet Spiny Norman...
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:28:32 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Man of Iron ; was [B7L] Telemovie
Message-ID: <2dad9f26.244c9790@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Judith wrote:
<You liked 'Man of Iron'? Ah well, it takes all sorts to make a world.>
I replied:
> You find that incredible? Well, let me make my statement a little
stronger.
> I not only liked 'Man of Iron,' I loved it. I have even written a review
of
> it in the May 1996 issue of the Avon Newsletter (No. 63), which Ann Bown
> apparently found reasonable enough to print.
And she answered back:
No, I don't find it incredible. As I said, tastes differ. I'm sure you
wouldn't like some of the things that I enjoy.
You don't have to agree with a review to print it (which isn't meant to imply
anything about whether Ann likes/dislikes 'Man of Iron') >>
If I overreacted to your statement, Judith, I apologize. But when you said,
"I takes all sorts to make a world," I found your comment at the very least
to be dismissive, and at the worst to be a put-down. Also, I mentioned my
review not to suggest that Ann Bown agreed with me, but to say that my
opinion was reasonable enough to be considered. Furthermore, I wanted the
other fans to give the script a chance because I believe many will find it
very enjoyable. Your opinion is highly respected as it should be for your
considerable knowledge of B7, but conflicting opinions should not be
dismissed out of hand.
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:10:05 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Bullies, was PiC Rant
Message-ID: <371B636D.5A550F9E@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Carol said:
> <I saw a definite change in Vila's tone in the beginning of BLAKE. There was an edge of challenge and a harshness when he talked to Avon.>
and Sally said:
> I sort of agree. He's cooling down, but he hadn't forgiven by a long stretch (which is ironic to me, because - as I said above - it�s Avon's self-interest he trusted, not Avon himself, so why he was surprised when that self-interest turned ugly...) I think the difference between Vila forgiving Tarrant and not forgiving Avon (well, not yet anyway) is that he *had* realised Tarrant didn't mean it, that it was bullying pure and simple. At the point we leave them, he still believed that Avon had meant to kill him.
Vila may be dumb, but he's not stupid -- Avon *had* meant to kill
him. He wouldn't have been happy about it, but he would have
done it. And Sally's said what I've been trying to say about Vila's
attitude after 'Orbit' much better than I've been saying it. I've never
said that I see *no* difference in Vila's attitude toward Avon; just
not a *huge* one. I believe that Vila realized that Avon was just
doing what was necessary to survive, but "it always feels personal
when someone's trying to kill me". The bickering is harsher, because
Vila's still smarting from the experience; he resented what had
happened, but he understood the logic of it and would have forgiven
Avon eventually. Vila doesn't hold grudges; certainly not against
friends for being who they are, particularly when being who they are
is what keeps Vila safe most of the time.
IMHO,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:32:37 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: re [B7L]: telemovie
Message-ID: <Y2LGZGAFb3G3EwEW@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <029901be8a06$87a49660$8c458cd4@default>, Neil Faulkner
<N.Faulkner@tesco.net> writes
>And if Man of Iron is anything to go by,
>Paul Darrow should be firmly handcuffed until the script is irrevocably
>finalised.
Excuse me while I just pop out for a cold shower...
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:26:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] web chat
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0419062636-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Mon 19 Apr, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
>
> Judith quotes Chris Boucher on Avon:
>
> > "I mistrust clear black and whites."
> >
> > "The line between freedom fighter and terrorist is a fairly thin one."
> >
> > "Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out."
>
> Yes, now *there's* somebody who understands Avon; this is
> a very good description of the character *I* see and admire. And
> the second line is, for my money, an even better description of
> Blake :)
The second line was indeed referring to Blake. I just picked some of Chris's
best overall quotes rather then trying to copy all that he wrote about a
particular character. (Copy typing makes my neck hurt after only a few
sentences)
He had some very interesting stuff to say about how important personal loyalty
was to Avon.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:39:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Bullies, was PiC Rant
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0419063907-bc8Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Mon 19 Apr, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> > >...I don't consider simple verbal savagery bullying.
> > >I consider threats bullying.
> >
> > Schools would disagree a lot with that. So would other spousal abuse
> > situations.
>
> Yes, nowadays, when the world has become so very PC. But,
> that's a very recent development. I'm not a total geezer, but I
> do remember when people were expected to learn to deal with
> these kinds of situations as they grew up: "Sticks and stones
> may break my bones, but words can never harm me."
I'm sorry, but you haven't the faintest damn idea what you're talking about.
I've seen my son reduced to tears through verbal bullying. I've seen his school
work suffer severely as a result. I've seen him have long periods of illness
brought about through the stress.
This only improved when he moved to a school where they were prepared to tackle
the problem and didn't believe that any child who was upset because of bullying
was a wimp and shouldn't be bothered by it.
If my son passes his exams next month, most of the credit will be due to the
teacher who finally took action to stop the bullying.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: 19 Apr 1999 12:41:47 -0700
From: "Ma.James" <ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] videos
Message-ID: <n1287596498.10356@SSDGWY.mdc.com>
>Mistral wrote:
>The quality of the videos we get over here in America, for example,
>is atrocious. And I'm talking manufactyuring quality, not the flaws
>from the original masters...
Gee, I'm really surprised to hear this. I bought all 26 tapes from Suncoast
here in Southern California and the quality is superb. The picture is sharp and
clear (not blurry or fuzzy at all), the sound is excellent (even the music is
unflawed). Everyone in our group bought their B7 tapes from Suncoast and no
one has had a problem.
Believe me, we'd be yelling if we couldn't see those gorgeous Avon eyes clearly.
Candace
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:41:13 -0500
From: Reuben Herfindahl <rherf@tursso.com>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: re [B7L]: telemovie
Message-ID: <0F144D2FBA41D211A6A000A0C9DD630D09055F@STPNT4>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> >In message <029901be8a06$87a49660$8c458cd4@default>, Neil Faulkner
> ><N.Faulkner@tesco.net> writes
> >>And if Man of Iron is anything to go by,
> >>Paul Darrow should be firmly handcuffed until the script is
> irrevocably
> >>finalised.
> >
Is Man of Iron available in print anywhere?
Reuben
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #137
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