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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 143
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
[B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish
Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Singing in the Bath
Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
[B7L] Scorpi-eaus: a B-Side
Re: [B7L] Freedom of Speech (was Bullies)
Fwd: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish
Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:56:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Borg <peter_borg@yahoo.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <19990422125643.3582.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Potential spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it yet!
Anyway, was watching Star One last night, and noticed
some stuff which I hadn't noticed before....
First, Servalan's tone of voice when referring to the
Star One's technicians' "selfless devotion to the
Federation" - she has as much contempt for them as
Avon seems to in his line "makes you proud to be
human". Surely she would expect this of people she
considers unimportant, and who's to say they
volunteered? I wonder if they did not volunteer, but
the record shows they did as a form of propaganda?
Second, the whole thing around Avon's line "I want to
be free of him". He never actually responds to Blake's
question regarding hate, never confirming that he
actually did hate Blake. And further, in the same and
later episodes he shows continuing commitment to
Blake. So is it that he needs to be rid of Blake, that
the needs it to end so he can be rid of any feeling of
debt or responsibility towards Blake? Is it just that
he want's to be able to do what he wants to with the
Liberator, but has been prevented from doing so by
Blake?
Thrid, Blake's internal debate about destroying Star
One. What did he actually hope to acheive? He knew
millions would die as a result, but did not seem to be
able to justify that other than to absolve his own
conscience, or perhaps to find a goal for his cause.
A final aside - does the control panel which is
repeatedly seen in the background in sector four on
star one look familiar to anyone else? It has a bank
of concentric semi-circles of switches/lights/buttons,
with the flat edge at the bottom of the panel. It
looks horribly familiar, but I can't think where else
I've seen it.
Peter.
===
--
Peter Borg
peter_borg@yahoo.com
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:00:30 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Message-ID: <a6efec6a.2450776e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Murray says:
<< Servalan isn't one of
those evil characters who gives the hero a half-hour speech about what she
is going to do to him and her future plans for ruling the galaxy. >>
But she does exactly that in Aftermath (well, maybe not half and hour, but it
is a nice, long speech). That lovely scene between her and Avon -- one of my
favorites!
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:02:49 PDT
From: "Stephen Date" <stephendate@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <19990422170251.48926.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Peter Borg wrote:
>Anyway, was watching Star One last night, and noticed
>some stuff which I hadn't noticed before....
>
>First, Servalan's tone of voice when referring to the
>Star One's technicians' "selfless devotion to the
>Federation" - she has as much contempt for them as
>Avon seems to in his line "makes you proud to be
>human". Surely she would expect this of people she
>considers unimportant, and who's to say they
>volunteered? I wonder if they did not volunteer, but
>the record shows they did as a form of propaganda?
Durkim is obviously much less ruthless than Servalan and I take her
response as baiting him after his expression of horror. I think that
you are right about the technicians though. If they were programmed
to want to protect Star One at all costs they could have been just as
easily programmed to want to stay there. Let's face it, they weren't
induced by the pay and prospects.
>Second, the whole thing around Avon's line "I want to
>be free of him". He never actually responds to Blake's
>question regarding hate, never confirming that he
>actually did hate Blake. And further, in the same and
>later episodes he shows continuing commitment to
>Blake. So is it that he needs to be rid of Blake, that
>the needs it to end so he can be rid of any feeling of
>debt or responsibility towards Blake? Is it just that
>he want's to be able to do what he wants to with the
>Liberator, but has been prevented from doing so by
>Blake?
I have to say I took that entire debate to be stress. There they are,
on the verge of destroying the Federation for good. For 200 odd years
the Federation has been a fixed point in everyone's life. They've
been cooped up together for goodness knows how long and they're all
getting on each others nerves. In Aftermath and Powerplay Avon is
still concerned about getting in touch with Blake (Listen to the
urgency in his voice as he interrogates Zen about Blake's well being
in Aftermath). I therefore am not inclined to take Avon's desire to
be rid of Blake that seriously. Incidentally Avon doesn't respond to
the "I didn't realise how much you hate me" jibe IMHO because he
thinks Blake is being petulant. There isn't really a good answer to
that one, "Yes I hate you" would have been untrue "No I don't hate
you" would have been vaguely demeaning. "Grow up and get a life" is
another response that springs to mind. On the other hand Avon has
been a major p in the a for two seasons so maybe we should cut Blake
some slack.
>Thrid, Blake's internal debate about destroying Star
>One. What did he actually hope to acheive? He knew
>millions would die as a result, but did not seem to be
>able to justify that other than to absolve his own
>conscience, or perhaps to find a goal for his cause.
Destroying Star One would destroy Federation power over the Outer
Worlds leading to a revolt on Earth and the Inner Worlds. The
justification is loosely analogous to, say, the Bombing of Germany
during WWII. Yes, civilians were killed, but the ends - the
destruction of a totalitarian dictatorship were felt to justify the
means. Whether Churchill - or Blake - was right is a vexed question.
(My view ? - Probably).
>A final aside - does the control panel which is
>repeatedly seen in the background in sector four on
>star one look familiar to anyone else?
It might have been in a earlier episode of B7. If not it was in
Doctor Who. Assuming that you just haven't seen too many ropey BBC
props and are beginning to think they all look alike !
Stephen
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:06:37 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0422180637-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Thu 22 Apr, Peter Borg wrote:
> Potential spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it yet!
>
> Anyway, was watching Star One last night, and noticed some stuff which I
> hadn't noticed before....
>
> First, Servalan's tone of voice when referring to the Star One's technicians'
> "selfless devotion to the Federation" - she has as much contempt for them as
> Avon seems to in his line "makes you proud to be human". Surely she would
> expect this of people she considers unimportant, and who's to say they
> volunteered? I wonder if they did not volunteer, but the record shows they did
> as a form of propaganda?
I think Servalan has comtempt for anyone who doesn't put their own self-interest
first. The Star One crew had supposedly volunteered for life,so that would make
them very stupid in her book.
She would (to use Nelson's fine distinction) require such devotion, but not
expect it. (Apparantly Nelson's classic 'England Expects' line came out because
they didn't have the right signal flags to do 'England requires every man to do
his duty')
>
> Second, the whole thing around Avon's line "I want to be free of him". He
> never actually responds to Blake's question regarding hate, never confirming
> that he actually did hate Blake. And further, in the same and later episodes
> he shows continuing commitment to Blake. So is it that he needs to be rid of
> Blake, that the needs it to end so he can be rid of any feeling of debt or
> responsibility towards Blake? Is it just that he want's to be able to do what
> he wants to with the Liberator, but has been prevented from doing so by Blake?
I think Avon wanted to be free of the sense of responsibility he had for Blake.
He also had a problem in that Blake's dedication to his cause (especially early
on) tended to be catching. He swept others along with him and they found
themselves believing it too. As Blake became more fanatic, it was hard for
those who had already become dedicated to following him. ('I choose to follow.
It isn't quite the same thing')
It's that emotional link that he wants to be free of. But of course, Blake
leaving didn't sever it. As you point out, later episodes show that the
committment to Blake is still there.
>
> Thrid, Blake's internal debate about destroying Star One. What did he actually
> hope to acheive? He knew millions would die as a result, but did not seem to
> be able to justify that other than to absolve his own conscience, or perhaps
> to find a goal for his cause.
You have to go back and watch 'Pressure Point' to understand this better.
Funnily enough <grin>, none of the crew had moral objections to taking out
Central Control when it was on Earth.
Taking it out would I assume have wrecked the Federations communications system,
have totally disrupted troop movements, have destroyed the records on the
populace, etc. It would also have made it much harder for the Federation to
threaten individual worlds and have thrown them back on thir own resources.
The Federation's centralised control was a recipie for disaster in many ways as
it mean that they, rather than the local people had control over things like
traffic control, climate control, etc. Just imagine how that can be used to
keep a world under control. Misbehave and you won't have any rain next spring.
Rebel and no ships will reach your world to supply you with industrial
goods/food/whatever.
It's possible that Blake intended to force people back on their own resources.
A good thing in the long term, but very very damaging in the short term.
Perhaps a bit like breaking up the old USSR. The effects on industry, trade,
commerce, the economy, were not always seen in advance and were very varied. In
the long term, it was hopefully a good thing, but the short term result was
poverty for many. (Though I think some countries fared much better than
others).
>
> A final aside - does the control panel which is repeatedly seen in the
> background in sector four on star one look familiar to anyone else? It has a
> bank of concentric semi-circles of switches/lights/buttons, with the flat edge
> at the bottom of the panel. It looks horribly familiar, but I can't think
> where else I've seen it.
Possibly the sub control room from 'Redemption'? Just a guess.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:04:03 EDT
From: NetSurfCK@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Message-ID: <ec3e98f5.2450f6d3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 4/22/99 5:28:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjsmith@tcd.ie
writes:
<< I agree completely with Deborah on this. Servalan isn't one of
those evil characters who gives the hero a half-hour speech about what she
is going to do to him and her future plans for ruling the galaxy. >>
Sure she does. In fact, that's exactly what her intricately devised plans
are...a half hour of telling Avon what she's going to do. Unfortunately,
Avon doesn't always recognize it.
One of the first conclusions *I* reached after viewing third and fourth
season for the first time is that neither Avon nor Servalan would kill the
other face to face. Servalan can order Avon's death abstractly (as she did
in "Warlord", "Harvest at Kairos", etc.) but I've never seen her even *try*
to kill him when she is in close proximity to him, though she has had
opportunity.
I believe she never intended to kill Avon in "Rumours of Death" simply
because she wasn't ready for him to die at that point. She still held some
hope of bringing him to her side. She enjoyed playing with him in his pain
at that moment but I can't see that she wanted to kill him. That smile was
too smug. ;)
<< For example, in 'Orac', she was quite brief with Blake and Cally before
telling Travis to kill them. >>
The A/Sevalan fan in me has to say that's because she didn't care about
either of them.
Cynthia
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:31:40 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Message-ID: <e2c36475.2450fd4c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-04-22 08:36:21 EDT, you write:
<< Her deliberately letting him go and pretending it's and accident is
much better writing than the deus ex machina of being distracted
by the rebel's entrance. >>
Very nicely put case for Servalan not wanting to kill Avon at that moment.
I might even buy it, except for my personal suspicion that Servalan's too
canny to allow a potential threat like Avon(with the Liberator) to escape,
even for the pleasure of knowing he's suffering emotionally. But again, my
suspicion is only personal, and your viewpoint is one I might yet be swayed
to. But what about the other instances where she almost gets Avon? D. ROse
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:15:57 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish
Message-ID: <19990422231558.50502.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Kathryn wrote:
>But who knows, maybe Avon would be practicing singing "The >Ladies of the Harem of the Court of King Karacticus" instead...
<smile> The Court of King Caractacus (if that's the right spelling) ...<becoming a grin> Well, he's got the memory for it (damned if I can remember all of the members of that monarch's entourage without prompting). However, I don't know if he'd know what a harem was. Though he could certainly find out (thinking of a few names on this list who would help him, I'm sure <grin turning evil at the edges>).
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:25:58 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Singing in the Bath
Message-ID: <19990422232559.93396.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Sally wrote:
>Actually, (as long as the Liberator has soundproof walls) how about
>
>'raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens...'
<snicker> "Brown paper packages tied up with string, these are few of my favourite things" <grin> That leads on to other things from The Sound of Music, in my rotten imagination. "Doe, a deer", for instance, or "The Lonely Goatherd". "Climb every mountain" is stretching it a bit, I think. That's one for Blake, to my mind. Oh, no, the sound of "How do you solve a problem like Maria" leaking through the walls...Triple the soundproofing at once!
>'I feel pretty, oh so pretty...'
<giggle>
>'On the Good ship Lollipop'
Oh, well, why not? But after, while he's getting dressed, so he can tapdance if he wants to. (No, I don't think that's terribly likely <smile>)
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:24:57 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Message-ID: <37200428.601AB173@ptinet.net>
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Responding to two separate posts, but my answers overlap quite
a bit, so I'm combining them to avoid repeating.
D. Rose wrote:
> Very nicely put case for Servalan not wanting to kill Avon at that moment.
> I might even buy it, except for my personal suspicion that Servalan's too
> canny to allow a potential threat like Avon(with the Liberator) to escape,
> even for the pleasure of knowing he's suffering emotionally. But again, my
> suspicion is only personal, and your viewpoint is one I might yet be swayed
> to. But what about the other instances where she almost gets Avon? D. ROse
<smile> I totally agree that she's very canny. The audacity of her
convoluted machinations is matched only by the audacity of her
fashion sense. But, like everybody else, she makes mistakes. Makes
one in every ep she's in, actually, or she'd have beaten them in the
first series. <smile> I'm not sure exactly what you're asking about the
other instances though, so I'll summarize them.
Cynthia wrote:
> One of the first conclusions *I* reached after viewing third and fourth
> season for the first time is that neither Avon nor Servalan would kill the
> other face to face. Servalan can order Avon's death abstractly (as she did
> in "Warlord", "Harvest at Kairos", etc.) but I've never seen her even *try*
> to kill him when she is in close proximity to him, though she has had
> opportunity.
I'm in agreement with Cynthia about Servalan not being quite able
to kill Avon face to face. Most of the time we have *multiple* motivations
for our actions. Their rivalry/admiration/bordering-on-affection sways the
balance in his favor on occasion. It rarely if ever actually stops her killing
him; generally it's just a matter of her wanting him to realize she's won.
In Rumors, he's opted out of the game. That's not the same thing at all.
OTOH, I'll have to say that Avon would have killed Servalan quite easily.
He just didn't get a clear shot where he didn't have a compelling reason
not to.
In big strokes, so as to condense: she can and does try to kill him as part
of the group. She does it in such a way, however, that gives him time to
realize she's won. This is why they've always got a window in which to
escape. (Kairos, Terminal, Assassin, etc.) OTOH, in these cases Avon's
only trying to stay alive; the only way he ever has an opportunity to kill
her from a distance (in series C and D) is by a space battle, and he's
always either outgunned/outnumbered/crippled and runs away. He does
want her dead, but not at risk to himself (and in series C, not very badly).
In series C, they have only four one-to-one confrontations: Aftermath,
Rumors, Death-Watch, Terminal. In Aftermath, she needed something
from him; and he was abiding by a truce; but I notice that once he had
Orac back, he had no objections to Dayna killing Servalan, it was simply
that Orac operated the teleport before she could. In Death-Watch, they
were restricted by the Teal-Vandor Convention; she had to abide by
those rules in order to continue her plan, and he had to abide by them in
order to thwart her plan and save Teal and Vandor. In Terminal, he had
no chance to kill her, and she didn't kill him because she needed him to
get control of the Liberator. (She might have been angry enough to kill
him just before Tarrant and Cally were brought in, or she might have
thought better of it and used him against the others - we'll never know.)
In series D, the only place they're ever face-to-face, even in a group,
is in Gold, and that's a stand-off. I don't actually see it as a truce. By
this time Avon's made it clear that he wants her dead. In Traitor, he
says "I *need* to kill her *myself*," (emphasis mine). Avon rarely admits
to wanting anything, let alone needing it. I think the emotions rearing
themselves up here are genuine. And talking to Soolin at the end of
Gold: "...and an outside chance of killing Servalan, would you rather I
hadn't?" To me this says that he would have killed her if the odds had
been good enough -- they weren't. "You're not the sacrificial type,"
Servalan tells him, and he agrees.
So that leaves Rumors. Avon doesn't kill Servalan because it would
violate that annoyingly inconvenient sense of honor he has -- he's
offered her her freedom for information, and she's agreed. The fact
that the information arrived unexpectedly from another source doesn't
change the agreement -- he sets her free.
As for Servalan not killing Avon in Rumors, I'm seeing *multiple*
motives. 1) He's just given her back her life, and she's returning the
favour; 2) It's no fun for her to beat him if he's not playing the game;
she wants to make him suffer, as I said in my previous post; 3) With
Blake lost and Anna dead (and therefore his ideals effectively gone,
so Servalan thinks, although some of us might disagree), he might
just be persuaded in future to change sides and join her; remember at
their next meeting in Deathwatch she says to him "But I don't think of
you as an enemy, Avon, I think of you as a future friend." 4) At this
point she's had very little direct contact with Tarrant; she understands
Avon far better, and believes him to be very much like she is; she has
a better chance of getting the Liberator and Orac from him than from
Tarrant, because with Avon, she has a better idea what buttons to push;
and 5) We learn in Terminal that this plot has been being prepared for
a *very* long time; it's possible she started working on it immediately
after Aftermath/Powerplay; if she kills Avon in Rumors, all that effort
is wasted and she has to start figuring out how to beat Tarrant, but if
she lets Avon go, she might not only make Avon suffer, but get the
Liberator and Orac using the Terminal plot. We do have a prior case
of her letting Blake, Avon, and Gan escape in order to secure something
she wanted worse at the moment -- IMIPAK, in Weapon. (Yes, she
still intended to kill them using IMIPAK, but she could have equally
intended to destroy Avon at Terminal.) All around, it actually seems
quite reasonable to me that she might think letting him go is smarter
than killing him. But it has to *look* like an accident to him.
Actually, apart from not blowing the charges manually at the end of
Terminal, the mistake she makes that annoys me most is that in both
Kairos and Terminal she fails to be certain that she's secured Orac
before she starts gloating. This is an *egregious* error on her part.
Since she's really out for her own power, instead of the benefit of
the Federation, Orac would, IMHO, be a much more valuable tool to
her than the Liberator ever could be, apart from which, Orac could
probably help her reconstruct the Liberator more easily than an
army of scientists could. So yes, she's canny, but she does, IMHO,
make huge mistakes; and I think letting Avon go at the end of
Rumors was deliberate, but not necessarily a mistake, just a
calculated risk combined with combined with her own twisted
pleasure at his suffering.
But I'm also wondering what everybody else thinks about the
relative value of the Liberator and Orac?
Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"You asked; I told you" -- Jarvik
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:48:09 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Scorpi-eaus: a B-Side
Message-ID: <37200998.DDB842C@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Those lovable mop-handles, the Scorpi-eaus, have just
informed me that the B-side to their most recent effort is
relevant to the discussion at hand. You may want to skip this.
*****************
Soul Mates
by the Scorpi-eaus
(Tune: Her Majesty)
The President's the woman for me;
I'm enamored of the games that we play.
The President's the woman for me;
Though she's evil in every way.
Ruthless and clever and a beauty besides,
But you'll never see it going to my head;
The President's the woman for me;
Some day I'm going to kill her dead, oh yeah --
Some day I'm going to kill her dead.
*******************
(exeunt -- really fast)
--
"One has to face these hazards when exploring new frontiers." --Egrorian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 03:22:02 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Freedom of Speech (was Bullies)
Message-ID: <19990423102207.16024.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
<I don't see everything said to Vila as bullying. Some things that sound dismissive on the surface were obviously not intended that way. There's one episode where Avon calls up and says something like 'Vila, are you asleep?' Vila jerks hiself awake and says 'no'. Avon replies 'That's what I thought'. There is affectionate humour in his voice as he says it.>
Oh yes, I like that bit. How about the following - what would you call them?
Orac - Avon orders Vila to go down to Aristo with him; when Vila protests that he can barely stay on his feet, Avon snarls 'then crawl!' (PS - why on earth *does* he pick Vila to take with him?)
Gambit - Vila's (literally) in the hot seat, Avon orders him to play speed chess when backing out will lose them their 5 million credits.
I think these two shade fairly close to browbeating, but differ from Tarrant's in that he doesn't use threats, just sheer force of - er - personality (what would he have done if Vila said no? Perhaps Vila doesn't want to know?). I might add that there's considerably less excuse for Avon making Vila play speed chess (to protect their winnings) than Tarrant making Vila go down alone in City, but then it was Vila's own fault that the credits were in danger...
<How would various characters feel about freedom of speech? Blake probably wants total freedom of speech as a matter of principle.>
Unquestionably. And he gets plenty of it on the flight deck (you can say what you like, he *knows* you'll end up doing what you're told...). Though sometimes both he and Cally - and maybe even Tarrant - must wonder if compromising a principle can be excused if it would SHUT AVON UP....
<Avon, I think would favour some restrictions once he was in office, but would suport total freedom when he wasn't <grin>>
Avon would insist on free speech for himself and literally doesn't give a damn about whether or not anyone else has it, unless they can use it against him. *Then* he'd get nasty - I don't think he'd take it away in principle, he'd just find a way to get even with anyone who attacked him.
<I think Cally is basically in favour of freedom of speech, but can't help feeling that she would want an exclusion for racists, facists, etc.>
I think that she would want to talk sense to them first, try and make them see reason. If she had to talk for hours...
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 03:30:46 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish
Message-ID: <19990423103046.1208.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Joanne wrote:
<smile> The Court of King Caractacus (if that's the right spelling)
...<becoming a grin> Well, he's got the memory for it (damned if I can
remember all of the members of that monarch's entourage without
prompting). However, I don't know if he'd know what a harem was.
Though he could certainly find out (thinking of a few names on this
list who would help him, I'm sure <grin turning evil at the edges>).>
Damn it, Joanne - isn't it enough that I've got mental images of
Avon singing 'I'm so pretty' (now followed by 'I'm a lonely little
petunia in an onion plot'- my mother's singing has left *deep*
musical scars in my memory) in the bath, and meeting up with the
Pythonish Brian (and shooting him, of course) - and now I've going
to dream of Avon & Vila in the remake of 'Lost in a Harem'...
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 04:22:49 PDT
From: "Stephen Date" <stephendate@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Message-ID: <19990423112255.30779.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Mistral wrote:
>We learn in Terminal that this plot has been being prepared for
>a *very* long time; it's possible she started working on it
immediately
>after Aftermath/Powerplay; if she kills Avon in Rumors, all that
effort
>is wasted and she has to start figuring out how to beat Tarrant, but
if
>she lets Avon go, she might not only make Avon suffer, but get the
>Liberator and Orac using the Terminal plot.
If you think that Servalan spared Avon then I think this had to be
Servalan's motivation. Regard for Avon does not come into it.
Servalan is an amoral sociopath whose only redeeming feature is her
fashion sense.
The events on Terminal are set up quite early on in the series, in
Volcano Servalan tells Mori that the Liberator crew is there to
investigate "Obsidian's strategic value which is real, and a rumour
which is not". So what does Servalan know at this stage...Also in the
first half of the third series there are a spate of attempts by
Servie to capture the Liberator. Aftermath, Volcano, Harvest,
Children of Auron...and then abruptly she stops... until Terminal.
I think, given at the time everybody thought season 3 would be the
last season, that the line in Volcano is supposed, casually and
unnoticed, to set us up for Servie's grand plan in Terminal. Of
course the Beeb then commissioned another series, enabling Chris
Boucher to bring Blake back, briefly, from the dead. If one were
really going to go to town, one could create a PGP scenario whereby
Servalan had told the truth at Terminal (which I think was the
intention in the script at the time) in which case who did Servalan
see cremated, and who did Avon shoot on Gauda Prime ?
>But I'm also wondering what everybody else thinks about the
>relative value of the Liberator and Orac?
"A few, a very few of the Liberator's systems were of minor
interest..."
With Orac you could build a fleet of Liberator's.
Stephen.
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 05:40:39 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Message-ID: <37206A46.AA1156E6@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Stephen Date wrote:
> Mistral wrote:
> if
> >she lets Avon go, she might not only make Avon suffer, but get the
> >Liberator and Orac using the Terminal plot.
>
> If you think that Servalan spared Avon then I think this had to be
> Servalan's motivation. Regard for Avon does not come into it.
> Servalan is an amoral sociopath whose only redeeming feature is her
> fashion sense.
Primary motivation very possibly, but sole motivation is
IMHO *too* simple. What you are suggesting makes her
a caricature, a cartoon; not a worthy opponent for Avon.
Apart from which, Servalan seems to actively enjoy putting
the hurt on Avon in several eps, notably Terminal;
sociopaths are generally indifferent to the feelings of other
people *either way*, as long as they get what they want.
Most behaviours that go beyond filling a basic need (such
as thirsty=drink) have more complex motivations. Even
deciding to answer posts such as these would have layers
of motivation; how much more so a decision to kill or not
kill one's favorite enemy/plaything?
I didn't mean to imply that affection alone would be enough
of a reason for her to spare his life. What I said was:
> Their rivalry/admiration/bordering-on-affection sways the
> balance in his favor on occasion. It rarely if ever actually stops her
> killing
> him; generally it's just a matter of her wanting him to realize she's
> won.
Meaning that it's a factor in her ambivalence, is all. And
also meaning that it's often, although not always, an
*unconscious* factor (as opposed to a conscious one).
For whatever reason, I've become convinced over the
course of this discussion that she *must* have let him
escape at the end of Rumors. Anything else is simply
too unbelievable for me -- in game *and* out.
Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 07:33:03 PDT
From: "Stephen Date" <stephendate@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon
Message-ID: <19990423143316.280.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
I wrote:
>> If you think that Servalan spared Avon then I think this had to be
>> Servalan's motivation. Regard for Avon does not come into it.
>> Servalan is an amoral sociopath whose only redeeming feature is her
>> fashion sense.
And Mistral Replied:
>Primary motivation very possibly, but sole motivation is
>IMHO *too* simple. What you are suggesting makes her
>a caricature, a cartoon; not a worthy opponent for Avon.
I think Servalan is a worthy adversary for Avon because she is as
clever as he is. Servalan is a Dictator, like most of the species her
ruling passion is power. I think the decision whether or not to kill
Avon would have been primarily based on whether it advanced her
interests. The fact she's been chained to a wall in her own palace
doubtless inclines her to engage in a little recreational sadism -
hence the bit about sending the Liberator a corpse. But if she spared
him it was because she had Terminal up her sleeve. The Liberator and
Orac weighed against the gratification of blowing Avon's head off
would have been strictly no contest I imagine.
>Apart from which, Servalan seems to actively enjoy putting
>the hurt on Avon in several eps, notably Terminal;
>sociopaths are generally indifferent to the feelings of other
>people *either way*, as long as they get what they want.
You may well know more than me on this subject. I was under the
impression that sociopaths have no conscience - hence my diagnosis of
Servalan. If on the other hand they have no enjoyment of inflicting
pain then I concede that Servalan is not a sociopath.
>Most behaviours that go beyond filling a basic need (such
>as thirsty=drink) have more complex motivations. Even
>deciding to answer posts such as these would have layers
>of motivation; how much more so a decision to kill or not
>kill one's favorite enemy/plaything?
I agree Servalan's emotional life was quite complex. But I think the
will to power subordinated all her other emotions. (She virtually
admits as much in Sand). I accept that the ambivalence is there. I
just don't think that it would have stopped her killing him, unless
there was an ulterior motive for leaving Avon alive. I don't think
that makes her one dimensional - merely ruthless !
>For whatever reason, I've become convinced over the
>course of this discussion that she *must* have let him
>escape at the end of Rumors. Anything else is simply
>too unbelievable for me -- in game *and* out.
Personally, I am quite able to accept the idea that Avon was
fortunate enough to be saved by Hob's intervention. Chance is part of
the fortunes of war. Napoleon used to ask of his generals "Has he
luck". On the other hand I am speechless with admiration for your
Terminal theory. Elegant, simply elegant my friend !
Stephen.
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