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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 222
Today's Topics:
[B7L] brutality
Re: [B7L] You know you've watched too much B7 when...
Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm... Mmmmm... Mmmmm
Re: [B7L] Test. Don't Bother To Read. Really.
Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
[B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
[B7L] brutality
[B7L] Test.
Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
RE: [B7L] The Life of Brian
[B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate
Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
RE: [B7L] The Life of Brian
[B7L] Blake
Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
RE: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Re: [B7L] The Life of Brian
Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Re:Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
Re: [B7L] Test. Don't Bother To Read. Really.
Re: Re:Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
[B7L] teletubbies
Re: [B7L] Test.
Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
[B7L] Jenna and Cally
Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:18:01 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] brutality
Message-ID: <378FAF99.9642E38F@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rob wrote:
> Avon can certainly be brutal. Then again, so can Soolin.
No kiddin! In the midst of watching season 4 and am reminded all over
again what a cold-blooded crew this gang has become. In "Gold" they
chalk up an amazing body count.
But I can forgive them all cuz they are just such eye candy characters.
Dear Sleer kicks it off, in her fabulous feathered Black Vulture costume
in Traitor.
This episode kills my theory of her wearing black as she takes on
disguise personna of Sleer. For when she blasts the floor to ceiling
portrait of the Empress, Servalan is wearing a black gown.
Drat! And I did *so* like that theory, too. :-(
"Assasin" brings us an Avon and Soolin who simply glow with good looks.
Plus, the costumes make Dayna and Soolin look like show girls. Dayna has
that gold sunburst about her neck and shoulders, while Soolin has that
sequined slash of sparkles across her chest.
Sadly, they took away Tarrants gaudy crimson pirate duds and gave him
that dull grey tunic, which does nothing to show off his figure.
And the anti-social behavior! Bravo!
In "Animals" the arrogance of Dayna and Soolin is simply breathtaking.
Avon's consistent cruel taunting of Vila is chilling. All pretense of
kidding has fallen away.
Why ever do I like season 4? When season 2 is so warm and fuzzy?
Masochist Pat P
________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:47:33 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] You know you've watched too much B7 when...
Message-ID: <d70a1cc4.24c164e5@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 7/13/99 4:56:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk writes:
<< Carnell was the one with the long eyelashes, the
computer chess game and the winning smile.
>>
So someone else noticed those eyelashes, too! Weren't they delectable!
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:51:15 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Message-ID: <37900BC3.37DC@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Neil Faulkner wrote:
> I could make a class issue out of this, y'know.
Blakes 7 meets 'My Fair Lady'! Uptight Professor Avon tries to teach
Vila Doolittle the pronunciation of the word 'respect'. Song and Dance,
pageantry, mondo boffo laffs.
--Penny Bernard Dreadful
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:03:08 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm... Mmmmm... Mmmmm
Message-ID: <45c2297a.24c1688c@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/14/99 2:59:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
patpatera@netzero.net writes:
<< As for Avon's flaws, I think Soolin would appreciate them, for she is
flawed herself and could not measure up to a perfect paradigm of loving
warmth and compassion such as an emotionally "whole and undamaged" man
might be. >>
But I think it is precisely this point, that Soolin is so flawed because of
her terrible past experiences, that she is unable to form a relationship with
anyone, especially with someone as difficult as Avon. It would take a woman
of extraordinary empathy, compassion, and patience to do so.... someone just
like Cally!
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:05:35 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Test. Don't Bother To Read. Really.
Message-ID: <620ad80e.24c1691f@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Ahhhhhh, I just can't help it.
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:26:37 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-ID: <1302dfc.24c16e0d@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Just to disagree with Mistral for a bit:
She wrote about Avon:
<< His colossal greed strikes me as utter and unforgivable stupidity,
particularly while on Liberator, as he's no need of the money
at that point.
I have often wondered how much of this *greed* is just a cover-up, sort of a
*look-at-me, see-how-tough-I-am, I-don't-really-care-about-you-or-anyone,
I'm-just-a-macho-selfish-bastard* thing. Furthermore, I think Avon is trying
to fool himself as much as anyone, yet time and time again, he finds himself
coming to the rescue. My favorite example of this is Horizon, where he could
have taken off with the Liberator and yet risked all to save everyone. After
all, it is one thing to talk supreme selfishness and living only for oneself
and quite another thing to face being all alone.
< I consider his treatment of Shrinker completely immoral; once
he realises Shrinker may not have killed Anna, he hasn't even
the justification of vengeance.
Yeah, this is pretty horrible. No wonder it bothered Cally who was so truly
moral.
<Probably the reason I dislike Tarrant's treatment of Vila so
much more than Avon's is that Avon wouldn't frighten *me*,
I'd just snarl back. Tarrant OTOH would scare me to death.
>>
But here I disagree with you again. Tarrant's actions were, I think, at
least partly based on his need to establish a pecking order within the crew
(not that I think this justifies his actions!) And the early Avon would
probably just be engaging in more of that *look at me, I'm so tough* stuff
again if he threatened me, so I wouldn't be so worried here either. But
considering the latter Avon, if he threatened to threw me out of the nearest
airlock, I'd be afraid (at least by the last season). If it was a choice
between his life and mine, I'm not so sure that in that constant battle
between selfishness and altruism that seemed to wage in Avon, that the
selfishness wouldn't finally win.
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:44:16 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Message-ID: <19990717054417.4648.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Susan Riaz wrote:
<Oh, PLEASE don't tell me that there are Jarriere fans? Please,
please! I don't believe it - I can't believe it.>
Followed by Harriet�s:
<Your horizons need broadening. Of course we're here. And clearly
Sally and I need to borrow a few inquisitors from F.I.N.A.L.A.C.T.>
That may not be a good idea, Harriet. Here I was being swayed by
the glowing PR work done by Penny and her Acolytes, the eloquence
and fervour (and toasters). Then I made a *big* mistake. Watched
Seek-Locate-Destroy and Pressure Point again. Now I�m going to
have to find a hiding place of my own...
We could trying *talking* Susan into submission. (As you point out,
loving Jarriere is a mark of discrimination. And given that my other
favourites are the boringly predictable ones - Avon, Blake and Vila -
I need *some* proof of discimination). Personally, I think it's a pity
that instead of Dayna and Tarrant, the Liberator didn't pick up
Jarriere and Chenie. Not nearly as pretty, but the intercrew dymanics
would have been - errr - ummm - interesting.
Now that I think some more, we'll keep Toothy. It would be
interesting to see which of the Alphas Jarriere drove demented first...
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:11:41 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] brutality
Message-ID: <19990717061141.22256.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Pat wrote:
<In the midst of watching season 4 and am reminded all over again
what a cold-blooded crew this gang has become. In "Gold" they
chalk up an amazing body count.
But I can forgive them all cuz they are just such eye candy characters.>
They certainly *are* the prettiest group of cut-throats imaginable.
Actually, talking of cold-blooded , that is one thing I feel about the
different crew mixtures - how *much* colder the emotional
temperature became over the 4 seasons. Losing first Gan and then
Blake - the only two really warm characters in the whole lot (the
rest are IMO neutral to cool, with Avon and Soolin cold to below
freezing on a bad day) then Cally meant a sizeable chill-out. And by
the end even Vila (thanks to Malodaar) is freezing up...
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:32:28 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Test.
Message-ID: <3790237C.760F@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Bloody test.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:45:24 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Message-ID: <37902684.1A51@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Neil Faulkner wrote:
> I could make a class issue out of this, y'know.
Blakes 7 meets 'My Fair Lady'! Uptight Professor Avon tries to teach
Vila Doolittle the pronunciation of the word 'respect'. Song and Dance,
pageantry, mondo boffo laffs.
--Penny Bernard Dreadful
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 03:42:06 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Message-ID: <8f847a04.24c18dce@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-17 01:45:33 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes:
<< Personally, I think it's a pity
that instead of Dayna and Tarrant, the Liberator didn't pick up
Jarriere and Chenie. Not nearly as pretty, but the intercrew dymanics
would have been - errr - ummm - interesting. >>
Who is Chenie? He's slipped my mind.
As for Jarrierre, he'd be great on teleport duty, if he didn't accidentally
send people into outer space. His presence could be beneficial for Vila,
since he will no longer be considered the dumbest crew member, and Avon can
have a fresh victim for his insults.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:56:04 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: Mac4781@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] The Life of Brian
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F5551CF@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain
The godmother wrote:
> Jo Ann wrote:
>
> > He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
> >
> > (Bad subject line. Bad me.)
>
> We'll miss Jo Ann when the FINALACT finishes with her. ;)
>
We wouldn't want to do anything bad, to her. After all, she recognises
Travis II's best quality. He is indeed a very, very naughty boy. We at
FINALACT *like* our boys naughty!
> > (looking for a hiding spot - just how close are the ties between
> FINALACT
> > and the Tarrant Nostra, anyway? The TN have been tracking me for some
> time
> > as it is...)
>
> It's true. And we've got her spotted right now. Doppler radar picked her
> up
> cowering under a desk. Jacqueline, if you need a fix, give a whistle. ;)
>
Well, I would like to pin a medal to her chest for furthering the cause by
publicly advocating Brian Crouchers qualities. Don't worry, Joanne, it'll
only sting a little. You can from now on consider yourself to be a honorary
member of FINALACT.
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:46:49 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate
Message-ID: <19990717084650.73305.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Rob wrote:
<Avon showed his own level of understanding to be far short of even the
loosest working definition in "Blake" - announcing out of the blue to the
whole crew that he'd found Blake, on the planet where Soolin's family had
been murdered. Did he give any forethought or forewarning to Soolin
herself? Uh-uh. Then he ignored her distress, and it was left to Dayna to
express a modicum of sympathy.>
Well, what else *could* she expect? This is perfectly in character for Avon
*when he's hunting Blake* (he does have a distinctly single-minded approach
to the job, as Tarrant could have told her). I agree - *if* he knew
beforehand that she was from GP (as Sugar points out, it seems he didn't) it
was abrupt and would have been handled better by someone as sensitive as -
err - ummm - errr - actually, now when you think of it, absolutely *all* of
our Heroes, including Soolin, could be staggeringly insensitive on occasion.
And most of them could be sensitive - yes, even Avon (the arm around Blake
in Pressure Point, the pax gesture in Trial, Lauren�s death in Aftermath,
the talk with Cally at the start of Sargophagus). The thing is, Avon kept
his moments of sensitivity for a few people, and - as yet - Soolin wasn't
one of them.
<He wasn't very subtle or sophisticated with Major Grenlee in "Rumours". Or,
for that matter, Servalan in any of their interactions. Or Blake.>
Blake??? Them's fighting words, and if it weren't for my regard for the the
long-suffering Neil, I'd be composing a frame-by-frame epistle on every
subtle interaction and exchange over the whole two seasons...(and I can too.
And Judith can supply any I miss, I'm sure <g>)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 02:06:29 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-ID: <37904794.935B5046@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Gail wrote:
> Just to disagree with Mistral for a bit:
What, we don't disagree enough? ;-)
> I have often wondered how much of this *greed* is just a cover-up, sort of a
> *look-at-me, see-how-tough-I-am, I-don't-really-care-about-you-or-anyone,
> I'm-just-a-macho-selfish-bastard* thing. Furthermore, I think Avon is trying
> to fool himself as much as anyone, yet time and time again, he finds himself
> coming to the rescue. My favorite example of this is Horizon, where he could
> have taken off with the Liberator and yet risked all to save everyone. After
> all, it is one thing to talk supreme selfishness and living only for oneself
> and quite another thing to face being all alone.
I've never seen any evidence that the greed is part of an act.
He doesn't put it on display in that sort of way. From Rumors
and several other places it seems reasonable to infer that he
equates money with safety. That's why I consider it such a
stupid error on his part. Money's not safety; and he certainly
can't use it on Liberator to buy it.
I'll agree with you that he's putting on an act about certain
things; but I don't think the greed is one of them.
> <Probably the reason I dislike Tarrant's treatment of Vila so
> much more than Avon's is that Avon wouldn't frighten *me*,
> I'd just snarl back. Tarrant OTOH would scare me to death.
> >>
>
> But here I disagree with you again.
Er. Gail. Er. I think what you mean is that *you* wouldn't feel
that way. You're not in my head; you can't know what scares
me and what doesn't better than I do.
> Tarrant's actions were, I think, at
> least partly based on his need to establish a pecking order within the crew
> (not that I think this justifies his actions!) And the early Avon would
> probably just be engaging in more of that *look at me, I'm so tough* stuff
> again if he threatened me, so I wouldn't be so worried here either. But
> considering the latter Avon, if he threatened to threw me out of the nearest
> airlock, I'd be afraid (at least by the last season). If it was a choice
> between his life and mine, I'm not so sure that in that constant battle
> between selfishness and altruism that seemed to wage in Avon, that the
> selfishness wouldn't finally win.
You see, here's the difference (and maybe it's F/T?). I think
that they could *both* get me killed. I just think Avon would get
me killed for a reason that I could logically agree with. With
Tarrant, I'd always be afraid that I wouldn't see it coming,
wouldn't comprehend the reason, and therefore, wouldn't have
any way to protect myself.
Example: In Orbit, Avon decides that one surviving is better than
none surviving. I don't think Avon owed it to Vila to die together.
I'd feel no differently if Vila had had the gun and been searching
for Avon. (And Avon would have seen the logic, and not held
it against Vila, IMHO.) I think laying down your life for another
is praiseworthy but optional; a lack of altruism does *not* in my
book imply selfishness. No greater love, and all that. This is logic
that I can understand; it would not cause me to live in a state of
fear.
OTOH, in DotG, Tarrant decides that none surviving is better
than one surviving. Excuse me? To me, *that's scary*!
I think that one surviving is preferable to none surviving. And
I don't want someone else to decide that I ought to die for his
idea of morality.
Now, lots of people would find Avon's attitude more disturbing
than Tarrant's. I'm just not one of them.
Good to see you posting, Gail.
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
--the third Doctor
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:44:43 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Message-ID: <750ee183.24c1b89b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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In a message dated 7/16/99 10:45:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
smanton@hotmail.com writes:
> That may not be a good idea, Harriet. Here I was being swayed by
> the glowing PR work done by Penny and her Acolytes, the eloquence
> and fervour (and toasters). Then I made a *big* mistake. Watched
> Seek-Locate-Destroy and Pressure Point again. Now I�m going to
> have to find a hiding place of my own...
You just need to watch Trial, Hostage, Gambit and Star One again, you'll soon
come to an appreciation of the True Travis....<eg>
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:47:37 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] The Life of Brian
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0717104737-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sat 17 Jul, Jacqueline Thijsen wrote:
> Well, I would like to pin a medal to her chest for furthering the cause by
> publicly advocating Brian Crouchers qualities. Don't worry, Joanne, it'll
> only sting a little. You can from now on consider yourself to be a honorary
> member of FINALACT.
I've got a couple of very nice fridge magnets that purport to show Brian with
his arm around Gareth - a snapshot from Redemption. The picture is on my web
site under 'merchandise'.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:45:06 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Blake
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0717104506-bc8Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sat 17 Jul, Sally Manton wrote:
> Blake??? Them's fighting words, and if it weren't for my regard for the the
> long-suffering Neil, I'd be composing a frame-by-frame epistle on every
> subtle interaction and exchange over the whole two seasons...(and I can too.
> And Judith can supply any I miss, I'm sure <g>)
Too true <grin>.
Reminds me that with all this talk of free toasters and the Tarrant Nostra, the
Gorillas haven't said anything for ages. But then our secret weapon is
infallible. Hardened Avon fans have been known to succumb, even Cally fans
admit there's something there. Vila's greatest devotee shares our passion.
We're very egalitarian. You can have any favourite character you like as long
as you turn up to see our favourite *actor* on stage. (I'm just trying to
recall if *any* of the Gorillas have Blake as their favourite character. He's
usually second, though we nearly all seem to be rabid Blake/Avon slash hounds)
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:03:29 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Message-ID: <37906301.642D12F3@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Adam wrote:
> Who is Chenie? He's slipped my mind.
She -- the barkeep in Gambit.
> As for Jarrierre, he'd be great on teleport duty, if he didn't accidentally
> send people into outer space. His presence could be beneficial for Vila,
> since he will no longer be considered the dumbest crew member, and Avon can
> have a fresh victim for his insults.
There is more to the estimable Jarriere than meets the eye;
or perhaps, I should say, less?
Stay tuned...
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
--the third Doctor
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:09:19 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Message-ID: <3790645F.170A26E8@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Neil Faulkner wrote:
> (Can I just reemphasise that I'm not saying or even trying to imply that I
> would like to see a Lyst free of character analyses. I'm just saying why I
> don't find them terribly interesting.)
Ooh yes, I got that several posts back. I did feel that your
original post upon which I was commenting seemed to display
a certain contempt for people who indulge in them, however.
I was only trying to make you aware of how it might be coming
across. But at this point I'm just trying to comprehend a few
things I can't quite follow you on.
> I suspect what people say on the Lyst is -very- closely tied up with their
> respective backgrounds, and that applies not only to generalities but also
> specifics. Enlarging on specifics might even run the risk of confusing the
> issue still further, rather than clarifying, since the writers'
> background-related assumptions become even more tightly woven into what they
> say. But short of everyone supplying an exhaustive bio of themselves, what
> can we do to overcome this?
Well, we tried Myers-Briggs, but you didn't like that either.
<evil Mistral snicker>
> I do hope I've never implied that I consider you to be close-minded:)
As I'm in a generous mood, I'll just take that at face value ;-)
> >A vigorous defense of one's position doesn't always imply
> an unwillingness to change it -- *if new data justifying a
> change is acquired*.
>
> A 'vigorous defence' suggests that one considers oneself to be under equally
> vigorous attack.
Well, you could try the sports metaphor instead of the war one.
I was raised in an atmosphere of recreational debate. I just
consider it a game. And the point isn't to win, but to improve
your understanding, get closer to the 'truth'. Of course, with B7,
there is, as you point out, no 'truth'; in which case the point is
to reach the most elegant, comprehensive, internally consistent
picture.
> What fray? Why are you constantly referring to Lyst discussion in such
> blatantly pugilistic terms? This ain't no fragging war zone. Or is it?
Call it a mood swing. Or call it the sports metaphor. Or tie
it to the many layers of struggle going on within the show
itself. Better yet, tie it into the language we use to discuss
fiction: protagonist, antagonist, foil. I've never intended to
hurt or insult anybody here.
Surely I'm not the only person here who *enjoys* the debate?
The year's back posts I read before joining seemed to indicate
otherwise. Hmm. <Mistral tries to clap one hand.>
> I comment because I care enough about my opinion to want to share it (but
> not in any generously altruistic manner, I'm afraid, though if anyone else
> picks up on it and integrates it into their interpretation of - in this
> case - Cally then they're welcome to do so). Since the remark was only an
> opinion, I didn't see how it required any further elaboration. It's neither
> supported nor denied to any significant extent by the series.
This is the bit that still puzzles me. Is this a feely thing?
Or, er, marking one's territory? I'm *not* trying to be
insulting, I genuinely don't get it, and I'd just as genuinely
like to understand it. Who benefits in what way by such
behaviour? I can't imagine sharing an opinion unless I
either wanted to make a contribution or receive feedback.
Help me understand this, please.
> I could make a class issue out of this, y'know.
And I could call that character-consistent. ;-)
Hedgehog? *Hedgehog?* Who's got a flamingo handy?
Grins,
Mistral in Wonderland
--
"I'm mad, you're mad, we're all mad here."--the Cheshire Cat
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:12:19 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F5551DA@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
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Neil wrote:
> What fray? Why are you constantly referring to Lyst discussion in such
> blatantly pugilistic terms? This ain't no fragging war zone. Or is it?
>
We've had quite a few holy wars here already, about such deep subjects as
Travis' looks, Avon's looks, Tarrant's looks and who looks best (Travis II,
of course). <sigh> War is hell ;-).
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:46:55 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Message-ID: <b65d198e.24c1f15f@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-17 07:02:09 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< She -- the barkeep in Gambit. >>
She was a bit of a stereotype, but a mother influence on the crew sounds like
a refreshing change. They definitely needed a motherly influence in some
season 2\3 episodes.
<<There is more to the estimable Jarriere than meets the eye;
or perhaps, I should say, less?>>
The more important question, where would Jarriere end up after everyone left,
post-Star One? With Vila, Cally, Avon? I picture him with Jenna, who may or
may not have already figured out the special talents which caused Servalan to
spend time with Jarriere.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:54:17 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Life of Brian
Message-ID: <37909919.9EE@geocities.com>
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Jacqueline Thijsen wrote:
>We at FINALACT *like* our boys naughty!
I nominate this for our official slogan.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:35:50 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back
Message-ID: <e129e8a6.24c1fcd6@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/17/99 8:12:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl writes:
<< We've had quite a few holy wars here already, about such deep subjects as
Travis' looks, Avon's looks, Tarrant's looks and who looks best (Travis II,
of course). <sigh> War is hell ;-).
>>
Hey, hey, hey, we all know that Avon's cuter. Those eyes, those eyes.
<sigh!!!>
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:05:45 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re:Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
Message-ID: <db9330ac.24c203d9@aol.com>
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I wrote about Avon:
> I have often wondered how much of this *greed* is just a cover-up, sort of a
> *look-at-me, see-how-tough-I-am, I-don't-really-care-about-you-or-anyone,
> I'm-just-a-macho-selfish-bastard* thing.
And Mistral replied:
I've never seen any evidence that the greed is part of an act.
He doesn't put it on display in that sort of way. From Rumors
and several other places it seems reasonable to infer that he
equates money with safety. That's why I consider it such a
stupid error on his part. Money's not safety; and he certainly
can't use it on Liberator to buy it.
I'll agree with you that he's putting on an act about certain
things; but I don't think the greed is one of them.
Well, that's one of the reasons I think it is, at least in part, an act,
because worrying so much about money is so illogical. And Avon isn't
anything if he's not logical. Of course, he was always talking about leaving
the Liberator, and I think this temptation was always in the back of his
mind. Blake has him doing all kinds of things he doesn't like, and he finds
himself attached to this group of people when his past experiences have made
him very distrustful of people in general. So, I guess if he were ever to
really leave, some money would come in handy, the more the better. Still,
all this talk of money is a very easy way for him to justify much of his
unpleasantness and keep those crew members at a distance, so I still think
the greed-thing is mostly an act.
Then Mistral said:
> <Probably the reason I dislike Tarrant's treatment of Vila so
> much more than Avon's is that Avon wouldn't frighten *me*,
> I'd just snarl back. Tarrant OTOH would scare me to death.
> >>
To which I replied:
> But here I disagree with you again.
And Mistral replied:
Er. Gail. Er. I think what you mean is that *you* wouldn't feel
that way. You're not in my head; you can't know what scares
me and what doesn't better than I do.
Well, okay, this makes sense. The *scary* is a very individual thing, tied
in intimately with who we are and how we think.
Mistral went on to say:
You see, here's the difference (and maybe it's F/T?). I think
that they could *both* get me killed. I just think Avon would get
me killed for a reason that I could logically agree with. With
Tarrant, I'd always be afraid that I wouldn't see it coming,
wouldn't comprehend the reason, and therefore, wouldn't have
any way to protect myself.
Hmmmm. Well, my thought on this is that Tarrant's threats are 90% bluff,
born out of a need to establish himself in the pecking-order of the crew,
while if Avon said he would throw me out the airlock, I'd take him more
seriously.
Mistral uses this example:
Example: In Orbit, Avon decides that one surviving is better than
none surviving. I don't think Avon owed it to Vila to die together.
I'd feel no differently if Vila had had the gun and been searching
for Avon. (And Avon would have seen the logic, and not held
it against Vila, IMHO.) I think laying down your life for another
is praiseworthy but optional; a lack of altruism does *not* in my
book imply selfishness. No greater love, and all that. This is logic
that I can understand; it would not cause me to live in a state of
fear.
But Avon, at this point, was putting his own survival above all things. Not
only did this ruin his relationship with Vila, one of the few people left
that he could relate to, but it also must have sickened his already sick
soul. And he would have to live with the guilt. Furthermore, since Avon was
putting himself first at this point, I don't think he would have said to
Vila, if the situation had been reversed, "Oh, that's okay that you tried to
kill me. After all, you were just being logical." Rather, it would have
made it impossible for Avon to trust Vila and perhaps would have caused some
sort of retaliation.
Then Mistral says:
OTOH, in DotG, Tarrant decides that none surviving is better
than one surviving. Excuse me? To me, *that's scary*!
Well, its fine if others die so that someone can survive, but it must be
their own choice! Any decision to let others die so I can live, especially
if I cause their death, is nothing but murder. And by doing this, I really
murder the inner-me. It would be better to all die than live with this
spiritual death.
Mistral finishes her post by kindly saying:
Good to see you posting, Gail.
Yeah, I'm glad to be able to, also. I tend to get so behind on the posts
that it's all I can do to just read them. (Just a few days ago I had over
200 posts to read!) But rest assured, even if I'm not posting, I am surely
lurking!
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:36:46 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Test. Don't Bother To Read. Really.
Message-ID: <3790A30E.A3493D84@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote:
>
> Ahhhhhh, I just can't help it.
>
That's right;
All you little mousies play
While Calle Cat is still away...
________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:15:27 +0100
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <j.beavan@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re:Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
Message-ID: <006d01bed083$f481e800$7deaabc3@net>
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> Mistral uses this example:
> Example: In Orbit, Avon decides that one surviving is better than
> none surviving. I don't think Avon owed it to Vila to die together.
> I'd feel no differently if Vila had had the gun and been searching
> for Avon. (And Avon would have seen the logic, and not held
> it against Vila, IMHO.) I think laying down your life for another
> is praiseworthy but optional; a lack of altruism does *not* in my
> book imply selfishness. No greater love, and all that. This is logic
> that I can understand; it would not cause me to live in a state of
> fear.
My problem with Avon's action in Orbit is not the personal one, but that he
breaks the contract - inexplicit though it may be - with his crew. They
agree to follow him as leader - in return for that consent a leader agrees
not to sacrifice his followers to save his own life. Avon panicked and threw
that away - bad Avon!
Jennifer
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:31:11 +0100
From: S Riaz <t.riaz@virgin.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] teletubbies
Message-ID: <3790F61E.B1A6E035@virgin.net>
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Dear Jacqueline,
Teletubbies hold no fear for me - I have a toddler who tortures me with
them already! However, I quake at the thought of the comfy chair!
Susan Riaz
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:04:08 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Test.
Message-ID: <003901bed09c$cda0dde0$9115ac3e@default>
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charset="utf-7"
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If anyone's been having trouble with Gail's test, the answers are as
follows:
(1) Some time between 'Moloch' and 'Deathwatch'.
(2) Her left ankle.
(3) Because it's illegal.
(4) Mandibles.
(5) Trick question - it was -Avon- who wanted to inflate it.
Anyone scoring less than 4 out of 5 isn't fit to be on this list, IMO...
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:32:13 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <003a01bed09c$ce843900$9115ac3e@default>
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Just toshow how different people interpret the same character:
Adam wrote:
<In a message dated 99-07-14 17:11:13 EDT, t.riaz@virgin.net writes:
<< Not so. Witness Cally's behaviour in Orac when Jenna is ill with
radiation sickness and staggers in the corridor returning to her
cabin. Cally is obviously concerned, and rushes up to help her. <snip>
I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think Tarrant and Dayna did make
the odd reference to Cally's being alien and, therefore, suspect, which
seemed to upset her. Possibly because having done her part to be
accepted by the original Liberator crew, she then had to deal with new
people who saw her as <different> all over again.>
<One of the first things Jenna ever said about Cally was a disparaging
remark, not to trust aliens. She did it again in The Web. It is perfectly
understandable why she did, but I wouldn't be surprised if Cally wondered,
in the back of her mind, whether those prejudicies were dormant within
Jenna,
ready to come back at any time. Cally probably felt the same about Dayna
and Tarrant. I don't think Jenna+AFw-Cally had any lasting friendship. Jenna
was a
fellow crewmember, someone Cally lived with for years, of course she'd have
concern for her. Cally was a very compassionate person, particularly in
season 1.>
Reminds me of one of those stories I never finished, one that went into the
Jenna/Cally thing (amongst other things). Set mid-1st Season, (ie after the
obvious J/C antagonism in Time Squad/The Web, but before the equally obvious
thawing in Project Avalon). My rationale was that Jenna was intensely
xenophobic, which required inventing a background for her in which she'd
been shafted by aliens from a very early age. So: that vision of Jenna's
mother we see in Spacefall was not Mumsy being beaten up by soldiers, it was
Soldier Mumsy immediately after being rescued from madness-inducing
captivity at the hands of alien rebels. And Daddles was locked up for
consorting with alien prostitutes (alien as in parahuman - see my Worlds
Edge page for a definition). And finally, Jenna Stannis was born as Jenna
Larsen, but as an officer in the Orbital Patrol Force (who taught her to
fly) she met a charming sergeant called Dal Stannis who turned out to be an
illegal alien, and fleeing the authorities with him was what set her on her
smuggling career. (The story began with Blake arranging a meet with a
reputable smuggler who turns out be aforementioned Dal). A lot of invented
background, to be sure, but any substantial amount of background for any of
the B7 characters has to be invented, since the series does not supply it.
Canonical support? None, really, but as usual with me there's not actually
any to deny it either
As for Cally, well - 'my' Cally is not particularly compassionate, she's a
guilt-ridden traumatised wreck struggling to salvage some delusion of
identity from her self-imposed exile from home.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:03:19 EDT
From: SugarHIB7@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <6ca2c44.24c257a7@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/17/99 2:39:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
<< As for Cally, well - 'my' Cally is not particularly compassionate, she's a
guilt-ridden traumatised wreck struggling to salvage some delusion of
identity from her self-imposed exile from home. >>
This is an absolutely brilliant description of Cally; a side of her I've
never considered. I could never see her as anything but irritating, and
never looked beyond that.
I'll have to start watching Cally with Neil's description in mind. Even if
I'm not able to like her, perhaps I'll begin to be able to find her tolerable.
Sugar
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:29:52 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <bc25bdd4.24c26bf0@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-17 18:05:46 EDT, SugarHIB7@aol.com writes:
<< I'll have to start watching Cally with Neil's description in mind. Even
if
I'm not able to like her, perhaps I'll begin to be able to find her
tolerable. >>
I went from disliking to tolerating Cally, but the first episode I really
like her in is "Shadow". She's very strong and resourceful in Shadow, with no
help from anyone but herself and moondiscs, Cally managed to scare Space
City, and defeat the unseen alien trying to plunge Liberator into the planet
(or was it the sun?). After Shadow, I liked her in most of the episodes, even
the ones where she has nothing to do but teleport duty.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:46:05 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <f516c356.24c26fbd@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-17 17:39:38 EDT, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
<< Reminds me of one of those stories I never finished, one that went into the
Jenna/Cally thing (amongst other things). Set mid-1st Season, (ie after the
obvious J/C antagonism in Time Squad/The Web, but before the equally obvious
thawing in Project Avalon). My rationale was that Jenna was intensely
xenophobic, which required inventing a background for her in which she'd
been shafted by aliens from a very early age. So: that vision of Jenna's
mother we see in Spacefall was not Mumsy being beaten up by soldiers, it was
Soldier Mumsy immediately after being rescued from madness-inducing
captivity at the hands of alien rebels. And Daddles was locked up for
consorting with alien prostitutes (alien as in parahuman - see my Worlds
Edge page for a definition). And finally, Jenna Stannis was born as Jenna
Larsen, but as an officer in the Orbital Patrol Force (who taught her to
fly) she met a charming sergeant called Dal Stannis who turned out to be an
illegal alien, and fleeing the authorities with him was what set her on her
smuggling career. (The story began with Blake arranging a meet with a
reputable smuggler who turns out be aforementioned Dal). A lot of invented
background, to be sure, but any substantial amount of background for any of
the B7 characters has to be invented, since the series does not supply it.
Canonical support? None, really, but as usual with me there's not actually
any to deny it either >>
It sounds plausible enough, since B7 never gave Jenna much of a background.
Most of the characters had bits and pieces, but we knew next to nothing about
Jenna (or Vila's) pasts before they met Blake in that prison cell.
<<As for Cally, well - 'my' Cally is not particularly compassionate, she's a
guilt-ridden traumatised wreck struggling to salvage some delusion of
identity from her self-imposed exile from home.>>
I can see that in Time Squad, through Mission to Destiny or Duel, but you
don't think she began to change after that? Or she just learned to bury the
guilt?
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #222
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