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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 26
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
FW: [B7L] Re: Homophobia/Who
Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Re: [B7L] Homophobia
Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas
[B7L] Vila and Deltas
Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas
[B7L] Q-study results 1 (long)
[B7L] Q-study results 2 (long)
Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas
Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas
[B7L] Chris Chivers
[B7L] Redemption+zines
[B7L] Re: SC: Redemption+zines
Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
[B7L] Vila and Deltas and stuff
Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas
Re: Working for a Living (was Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas)
------------------------------
Date: 13 Jan 1999 10:01:54 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-ID: <usd84jk0l9.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl> writes:
> Which books exactly are you talking about? I've read several, but
> didn't find any overly fascist tendencies in them (no more than you
> get in any book with a little action in it).
"King Solomon's Spaceship" (may misremember the title) and "The Mote
In God's Eye" (yes, I know that one was with Niven, but the
Co-Dominium universe is Pournelle's design). There were also a few
short stories, the names of which I forget.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
"I'd rather hang on to madness than normality" -- KaTe Bush
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:43:04 +-100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-ID: <01BE3EE1.81005940@nl-arn-lap0063>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl> writes:
> Which books exactly are you talking about? I've read several, but
> didn't find any overly fascist tendencies in them (no more than you
> get in any book with a little action in it).
And Calle answered:
>"King Solomon's Spaceship" (may misremember the title) and "The Mote
>In God's Eye" (yes, I know that one was with Niven, but the
>Co-Dominium universe is Pournelle's design). There were also a few
>short stories, the names of which I forget.
I've read "The Mote in God's Eye", and personally I thought the Co-Dominium was just another one of those space-empires that were modelled after the Roman empire. This is done very often in SF (even Asimov has done it, and his books are so "feel-good" is comes close to Disney) and I've never seen it as particularly fascist. Pournelle has also co-written "Janissaries", which actually has some remnants of the Roman empire playing an important part in it. Just another sign that he gets some of his inspiration for backgrounds from our own past.
Jacqueline Thijsen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:11:51 +1030
From: "Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001" <DUNML001@students.unisa.edu.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: FW: [B7L] Re: Homophobia/Who
Message-ID: <AE6AF4DBBDA8D111B1D200AA00DD6129015E92D6@EXSTUDENT4.Magill.UniSA.Edu.Au>
Content-Type: text/plain
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brent@ntr.net [SMTP:brent@ntr.net]
> Sent: Sunday, 10 January 1999 6:53
> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
> Subject: [B7L] Re: Homophobia/Who
>
>
>
> Iain:
> >>Also, we're looking at a small number of scripts here. Holmes wrote loads
> >>of Dr Who stories, and was script editor for even more. In all those
> >>stories that I've seen I can't think of a single example of negativity
> >>towards homosexuals. You'd think, if he had such a bee in his bonnet, it
> >>would have expressed itself in DW as well.
>
> Neil:
> >Pas devant les enfants? DW was for kids, B7 for adults. Ish.
>
> Thus far, you've presented your case very well, however, I don't think you
> can say DW was for kids and B7 adults. I think both were designed to appeal
> to kid and adult audiences. Some might even say B7 was for kids, too.
> Fortunately, all of us here know better.
>
> Iain made an excellent point about Holmes' DW work and your dismissal
> doesn't address it. At any rate, even if DW was for kids, that does not
> mean that a homophobic subtext couldn't be inserted into the stories.
> Holmes could have easily inserted the same "homophobic" themes in his DW
> stories as you allege he did in his B7 stories.
>
> Neil:
> >I recall thinking there were some iffy elements in at least one DW script by
> >Holmes. Talons of Weng-Chiang? I'm really not sufficiently Who-wise.
>
> That's too bad. If you were Who-wise, you would know that it wasn't just
> for kids. In many instances, it wasn't for kids at all (Ghost Light springs
> to mind).
>
>
> Brent
Martin-
WHEW!
Well, thanks for answering my question with respect and interest!
I have been having a real Holmes christmas break, consuming everything I can
find by him.
The only stand out sexuality I note throughout his work is a genderless sadism.
These are Holmes' Dr. Who scripts-
The Krotons
The Space Pirates
Spearhead From Space
Terror of the Autons
Carnival of Monsters
The Time Warrior
The Deadly Assassin
The Sunmakers
The Ribos Operation
The Power of Kroll
The Caves of Androzani
The Two Doctors
The Mysterious Planet
The Ultimate Foe (Re-written following Holmes' death by Pip and Jane Baker,
re-written again by Eric Saward, the then Script Editor)
Holmes was Script Editor between late '74 and late '77
These are stories where his editing was significant enough to note-
The Ark in Space
Revenge of the Cybermen
Pyramids of Mars
Brain of Morbius
The Talons of Weng-Chiang
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:58:52 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-Id: <E100NKm-0004Gq-00@post.mail.demon.net>
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>
> Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl> writes:
>
> > Which books exactly are you talking about? I've read several, but
> > didn't find any overly fascist tendencies in them (no more than you
> > get in any book with a little action in it).
Have you read 'Footfall'? This is the most ridiculous effort at fascist
apologia I have ever read. That was Niven and Pournelle. In general their
books lately are about how glorious militarists save the world in the face
of opposition from loony liberal conservationists. I don't think they would
argue with that description of their work, they more or less use those
exact words themselves, but followed by the comment 'great isn't it?'
Having said that I enjoyed 'Ringworld' years back. I think that was before
Niven went a bit loopy.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:15:06 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-ID: <19990113101507.1890.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Calle quoting Neil:
>> (a) since my definition of a fascist is anyone to the right of Mao
>>Tse Tung,
Then defending Robert A. Heinlein against the charge of fascism:
>This doesn't go very well with fascism, since one of the central
>parts of fascism is the subordination of the individual to the
>collective
Is that fascism, or communism? Was Mao Tse Tung a fascist? Neil, help
me -- I'm getting confused.
-- Orb
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:08:47 +-100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-ID: <01BE3EED.7A3DE300@nl-arn-lap0063>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Alison wrote:
<<Have you read 'Footfall'? This is the most ridiculous effort at fascist
apologia I have ever read. That was Niven and Pournelle. In general their
books lately are about how glorious militarists save the world in the face
of opposition from loony liberal conservationists. I don't think they would
argue with that description of their work, they more or less use those
exact words themselves, but followed by the comment 'great isn't it?'>>
Sounds more like they love the terminator-movies. And in "Footfall" they also make survivalists look at little ridiculous. So what's wrong with a little action adventure?
Jacqueline Thijsen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:11:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990113110728.7368A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Alison Page wrote:
> Have you read 'Footfall'? This is the most ridiculous effort at fascist
> apologia I have ever read. That was Niven and Pournelle. In general their
> books lately are about how glorious militarists save the world in the face
> of opposition from loony liberal conservationists. I don't think they would
> argue with that description of their work, they more or less use those
> exact words themselves, but followed by the comment 'great isn't it?'
I read "Lucifer's Hammer" <mumblemumble> years ago: I enjoyed it, but the
later portions did betray a tremendous techno-fetishism that even I found
a little hard to swallow.
>
> Having said that I enjoyed 'Ringworld' years back. I think that was before
> Niven went a bit loopy.
Coincidentally, I've just been discussing "Ringworld" in email. Am I the
only person on Earth who found this book dreadfully dull?
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:15:54 +1000
From: vera@c031.aone.net.au
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Homophobia
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990113211554.00856da0@mail01.mel.aone.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Una wrote (re Toise, Egrorian etc)
>I always thought all this was in the tradition of Great British camp.
I thought it was more in the tradition of associating sexual deviance with
villainy. Servalan, e, far from being a shrinking virgin, abuses her
command position to have sex with subordinates (Ray), quite enjoyed a bit
of rough (Jarvik), took advantage of poor Tarrant's chivalry (or
foolishness), tried to lure and cheat Avon with her wiles (our Avon, he
knows better than to consort with that kind of girl) and generally got
about dressed like a drag queen. A gorgeous drag queen I love, mind.
You can see shades of Servalan in DS9's mirror universe Intendant and TNG's
Borg Queen. It's the glorious cinematic tradition of the monstrous feminine.
There's also strong tradition of effete villainy and as Egrorian and
Krantor are fine examples as any Bond badguy. I agree with Kathryn that
their existence doesn't neccessarily mean the writer was homophobic.
Inclined to use cliched bad guys, maybe, but no more homophobic than the
society he lived in.
Malissa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:23:01 +1000
From: vera@c031.aone.net.au
To: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>,
"Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990113212301.0085b900@mail01.mel.aone.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Alison:
>Having said that I enjoyed 'Ringworld' years back. I think that was before
>Niven went a bit loopy.
Loopy? I thought someone was just paying him megabucks to make Pournelle's
fiction readable.
Malissa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:28:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990113122743.6791B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Harriet said:
>In Animals (pause to wonder whether this episode has any serious weight),
I'm sure you people only do this to make sure I'm reading your posts.
Una ;)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:07:28 PST
From: "Stephen Date" <stephendate@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Vila and Deltas
Message-ID: <19990113120735.1384.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Were the Federation trying to breed violent impulses out of the Deltas ?
I know that the show frequently suggests they were drugged but it seems
to go further than that.
1/ On Earth most people lived in Domed cities. We know that there is a
correlation between certain types of urban environments and increases in
crimes. Presumably the Federation were keen to forestall this.
2/ Of the two Delta's among the regular crew (I am assuming Gan was a
Delta although this was never explicitly stated) neither was the violent
type. As well as being a coward Vila was squeamish about inflicting
violence (his expression in Cygnus Alpha when he stabs the guard, the
bit in SLD when he chases the guard half way across the base before
knocking him out instead of shooting him in the back). Even allowing for
the limiter Gan is always the sensible chap with the first aid kit close
to hand. By comparison the bad cases of testosterone poisoning in the
crew were the Alpha's - Avon, Tarrant and Blake.
3. The other prisoners on the London (I presume most of whom were
Deltas) were a pretty unagressive lot. As Avon pointed out, during the
revolt they bumbled around looking for someone to surrender to. They
accepted Blake's authority as de facto leader - most criminals are not
disposed to taking orders from 'child molesters'. On Cygnus Alpha when
Blake told them that they could fight or they could die he discovered
that he had given most of them one option too many. I know they were
drugged on the ship but that must have worn off by CA.
4. Organised crime amongst the Deltas was run by a covert branch of the
Federation (Shadow). It seems logical to assume that the idea was to
co-opt any trouble makers who did get past the genetic screening and the
drugs instead of letting them become nuclei of discontent. It may also
have been felt that having crime dominated by one cartel was easier to
manage than gang warfare.
5. Yes there are still aggressive non-Alphas in the B7 universe. I am
assuming that the Federation Troopers are a separate caste - Jarvik
refers to them as 'Security Grades' in HoK. I am also assuming that
Federation society is less stratified on the Outer Worlds, which is why
Foster is basing his hopes of a revolt on them in The Way Back. If we
accept both of these assumptions it follows that the likes of Bayban,
and the homicidal types on GP hadn't come under the same sort of
conditioning. Of course the invention of Pylene 50 would change all that
eventually.
6. This might go some way to explaining Servalan and Travis' behaviour.
If my theory is correct then the ruling classes in the Federation were
those who possessed the ability to kill. There were two attitudes to
this in the Federation. Those of the moderates like Rai and Samor who
believed in the rules of war and the hardliners like Servalan and
Travis. Might not Servalan and Travis have seen killing not merely as a
means to an end but as a form of self expression ? A case of 'I kill,
therefore I am'. This might also cast light on a darker side to Blake as
he refused to kill Travis on the grounds that he would have enjoyed it.
7. I hope I'm not wittering. This is a first post so be gentle with me
if I am.
Stephen Date.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:17:32 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas
Message-ID: <19990113121732.18243.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Harriet/Una:
>Harriet said:
>
>>In Animals (pause to wonder whether this episode has any serious
>>weight),
>
>I'm sure you people only do this to make sure I'm reading your posts.
>
>
>Una ;)
Whoosh! Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but are you
trying to tell us, Una, that you're an "Animals" lover?
-- Rob
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:07:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Q-study results 1 (long)
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990113130327.6543H-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well - at last!!!
About 100 years ago, many of you participated in a piece of research that
I initiated about 200 years ago. Over the summer, I carried out the
statistical analysis. Over Christmas I completely failed to take advantage
of the holiday to write up the results. So, I've taken a day off work - in
response to all the scary nagging that has come my way in the last few
days - to kick off with writing up the results.
These posts will hopefully show the different ways in which people
expressed their likes and dislikes, and the different understandings of
the programmes and what constitutes good and bad B7 which underpin these.
One of the most important aspects of any Q-study is that the people who
participate have the opportunity to say, 'No, that's wrong, you've
completely misinterpreted what I said!' So it's open season on all of this
- if your name appears in conjunction with a factor and you think I havent
quite hit the nail on the head, comment away. It will make the whole study
a lot more interesting.
First of all, to remind people who have forgotten, and to fill in those
who have joined the list since, heres a run through of the task which
people were asked to carry out. You can visit the website which I set up
to explain the procedure to people at:
www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una/b7study.htm
Method
People were invited to print out a list of all 52 episode titles, and then
to carry out a sorting exercise, arranging the episode titles in a scale
from -5 (most disliked) to +5 (most liked). The spread of episodes was as
follows:
Rating: -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5
No. of episodes: 2 3 4 6 7 8 7 6 4 3 2
I also asked people to offer comments as to why they had rated particular
episodes highly or low down.
Analysis
Once a number of sorts had been received, they were correlated and
factor-analyzed. The resulting factors which emerge represent clusters of
people who have ranked the same episodes in essentially the same fashion,
i.e. that have a _common understanding_ of why they like/dislike various
episodes. These factors are then interpreted by looking at the spread of
episodes both within and across factors, and by using the comments which
people had provided to indicate why they liked or disliked particular
episodes.
Results
I received 28 completed q-sorts. These sorts were factor analyzed, and 6
interpretable factors emerged. In the analysis which follows, I shall be
making a distinction between exemplifying and non-exemplifying sorts. The
first are those sorts which load significantly _on only one factor_, i.e.
these are responses from people who express a very distinct understanding
of what B7 means to them. Non-exemplifying sorts were responses sent from
those people who significantly loaded on more than one factor, i.e. whose
understanding of B7 takes in a number of different discourses. These
people will see their names appear in conjunction with several factors in
the discussion below. Some peoples sorts didnt load significantly on any
factor - they dont appear in the analysis that will follow.
Please forgive me if the style of writing is a little inconsistent: I
found I was veering between writing as a fan and writing as a researcher!
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:12:28 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Q-study results 2 (long)
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990113130755.6543I-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Account 1: Beautiful Suffering
Those who contributed exemplifying sorts here were Sarah Thompson, Julie
Horner, Cylan, Susan-Beth, Jenni, and Mary O'Connor. Others who loaded
significantly but did not provide exemplifying sorts were Russ Massey,
Jay, Taima, Christine Lacey, and Deb Salyers.
The main object of interest for people who loaded significantly on this
factor is episodes which have a strong focus on character portrayal and
development. As one respondent put it:
'I think episodes that heavily feature your favourite character(s) are
more likely to appeal to you than ones in which they contribute to a
lesser degree... Episodes which feature a lot of special effects are not
as good as those that concentrate on the inter-reactions between the
characters.'
In their responses, people would give the fact that a particular character
features prominently as the explanation for why they liked a certain
episode. Episodes such as Animals were disliked in part because of the
un-canon like behaviour of characters.
The episodes which were rated highly here were as follows:
+5 Aftermath; Rumours of Death
+4 Sarcophagus; Orbit; Blake
For many people this interest in character has a more specific focus: the
Avon character. Rumours is popular for being 'the peak of Avon
angst/torture'; 'Avon suffers beautifully'; and for the way in which it
reveals aspects of the his character: 'My favourite episodes involve some
glimpses into Avon's personality'. There is also, of course, a certain
amount of fondness for the Man in Black's physical attributes!,
particularly in Aftermath, which is liked for: 'Avon being beautiful' and
having 'Avon as a sex-object'.
This account is not primarily articulated around Avon worship: thus when
other characters figure prominently in episodes, it is also met with a
great deal of approval, for example, in City (+2); when all the characters
can be seen in action, as in Deathwatch (+2), and when particular emphasis
is given to introducing new characters: Powerplay (+3). Also, there are
approving noises when an under-used character features prominently, even
if these episodes dont rate overly highly, e.g. Time Squad (0), does not
rank well, but provokes special comment: 'Jenna kicks ass!'.
The primacy placed on character means that episodes are even described in
the context of the character who features most prominently. As one
respondent put it: 'My favourite character is Avon, but 3 of my favourite
episodes are Sand and Deathwatch, which are Tarrant episodes, and City,
which is a Vila episode.'
The episodes which were considered poor were as follows:
-5 The Web; Animals
-4 Cygnus Alpha; Volcano; Stardrive
The aspects of these episodes which are disliked are bad plot, shoddy or
tacky sets or costumes, and SF cliches. Here are several respondents
comments on various episodes (count em!) 'I loathe the Decimas, I loathe
the body in the bottle'; 'The idea of confusing a computer with riddles
was decades old, and the pulsating brain was laughable'; 'Travis in
bandages'; 'Brian Blessed overacting is not for me'; 'bad mohicans'; 'Og'.
These are, simply, not what constitutes good B7: The Web and Animals are
disliked because of monsters - 'B7 never excelled at these'. As another
respondent summed it up: 'I'm more interested in character interactions
than pitched space battles vs. aliens'.
The responses give the impression that the whole programme is viewed as a
series of vignettes or character bites, which make most of the show
enjoyable: 'I only had 3 dislikes and 34 likes!' and 'I really like most
of the episodes and would really hate to do without any of them'. Several
people expressed the fact that they had found it difficult to rank the
episodes in such a forced way, and that they would have liked to rate many
episodes more highly: 'You really should have allowed more episodes in the
upper + zones!'
One respondent annotated nearly every episode with particular Avon
moments; even episodes which were particularly disliked had good aspects.
Speaking about The Web, it was noted that 'there are a couple of nice B/A
moments, but not enough to make me watch this more than once a year'.
Another respondent would 'watch the exchanges between Vila and Avon in
Gambit and end up fast-forwarding through the rest because I don't like
it'. [I would really like to know if other people watch B7 like this, or
whether they prefer to sit and watch entire episodes from start to
finish.]
Moreover, exceptionally good character moments can redeem an entire
episode. In the case of Orbit, a humdrum plot is saved by the final
confrontation: one respondent rated it highly because of Avon being driven
to the edge of his pragmatism against his affections - the first 40
minutes are forgettable set-up. And as another respondent summed it up:
'Orbit ended up as one of my favourite episodes even though the story is
basically crap. I guess it's the Vila, where are you, Vila? parts that put
it in the favourite column.'
This account therefore reflects an emphasis on scenes (as opposed to
episodes) which provide strong character portrayal, interaction, and
development, particularly the character of Avon. Intrusively bad plotting
and special effects are frowned upon, although this can be ignored if
situations are created in which the characters are able to interact in
novel and interesting ways.
----------------------------
More to follow!!
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:43:38 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
Message-ID: <9dc16bac.369cb11a@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-01-13 06:16:43 EST, Iain wrote:
<< Coincidentally, I've just been discussing "Ringworld" in email. Am I the
only person on Earth who found this book dreadfully dull?
>>
No. I tried to read it several years ago and it was boring enough that I
didn't finish it.
Tiger M
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:44:23 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas
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Welcome Stephen,
I don't think you're wittering at all. This is a very interesting analysis;
I'd never thought of this possibility before.
<< 1/ On Earth most people lived in Domed cities. We know that there is a
correlation between certain types of urban environments and increases in
crimes. Presumably the Federation were keen to forestall this.>>
I thought that was part of the reason for the suppressants myself. Keep the
population drugged and they won't even think of getting into trouble. Your
theory has definite possiblities.
<< 2/ Of the two Delta's among the regular crew (I am assuming Gan was a
Delta although this was never explicitly stated) neither was the violent
type. As well as being a coward Vila was squeamish about inflicting
violence (his expression in Cygnus Alpha when he stabs the guard, the
bit in SLD when he chases the guard half way across the base before
knocking him out instead of shooting him in the back). Even allowing for
the limiter Gan is always the sensible chap with the first aid kit close
to hand. By comparison the bad cases of testosterone poisoning in the
crew were the Alpha's - Avon, Tarrant and Blake.>>
This is very true.
<< 3. The other prisoners on the London (I presume most of whom were
Deltas) were a pretty unagressive lot. As Avon pointed out, during the
revolt they bumbled around looking for someone to surrender to. They
accepted Blake's authority as de facto leader - most criminals are not
disposed to taking orders from 'child molesters'. On Cygnus Alpha when
Blake told them that they could fight or they could die he discovered
that he had given most of them one option too many. I know they were
drugged on the ship but that must have worn off by CA.>>
I noticed this myself. I got the impression that the lower classes had been
conditioned to obey but docility could have been bred into them.
<< 4. Organised crime amongst the Deltas was run by a covert branch of the
Federation (Shadow). It seems logical to assume that the idea was to
co-opt any trouble makers who did get past the genetic screening and the
drugs instead of letting them become nuclei of discontent. It may also
have been felt that having crime dominated by one cartel was easier to
manage than gang warfare.>>
Very true. However, there's a lot of money to be made from organized crime
and the upper echelons of the Federation were very greedy.
<< 5. Yes there are still aggressive non-Alphas in the B7 universe. I am
assuming that the Federation Troopers are a separate caste - Jarvik
refers to them as 'Security Grades' in HoK. I am also assuming that
Federation society is less stratified on the Outer Worlds, which is why
Foster is basing his hopes of a revolt on them in The Way Back. If we
accept both of these assumptions it follows that the likes of Bayban,
and the homicidal types on GP hadn't come under the same sort of
conditioning. Of course the invention of Pylene 50 would change all that
eventually.>>
Interesting. Soolin and Cally were not from Earth and Jenna was described as
a "superior grade citizen."
<< 6. This might go some way to explaining Servalan and Travis' behaviour.
If my theory is correct then the ruling classes in the Federation were
those who possessed the ability to kill. There were two attitudes to
this in the Federation. Those of the moderates like Rai and Samor who
believed in the rules of war and the hardliners like Servalan and
Travis. Might not Servalan and Travis have seen killing not merely as a
means to an end but as a form of self expression ? A case of 'I kill,
therefore I am'. This might also cast light on a darker side to Blake as
he refused to kill Travis on the grounds that he would have enjoyed it.>>
My only quibble with your theory is that the Federation was alos actively
engaged in conquest; they would need lots of soldiers for that. If large
segments of the population have aggression bred out of them that would seem to
limit the pool of available troops. I had the impression that many of the
troopers we saw on the show came from the delta and gamma grades, but I could
be wrong. Vila mentioned "service grades."
I look forward to more posts from you, Stephen.
Tiger M
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:52:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990113164025.7368E-100000@bsauasc>
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On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Stephen Date wrote:
[lots of good stuff, but I'm going to concentrate on this:]
>
> 3. The other prisoners on the London (I presume most of whom were
> Deltas) were a pretty unagressive lot. As Avon pointed out, during the
> revolt they bumbled around looking for someone to surrender to. They
> accepted Blake's authority as de facto leader - most criminals are not
> disposed to taking orders from 'child molesters'. On Cygnus Alpha when
> Blake told them that they could fight or they could die he discovered
> that he had given most of them one option too many. I know they were
> drugged on the ship but that must have worn off by CA.
This reminds me of a famous psychological experiment, involving a group of
student volunteers and a small made-up prison. The volunteers were split
into two groups - prisoners and guards. The guards had to enforce the
prison rules over a period of a couple of weeks, at which point the
experiment would end.
The guards were immediately hostile and sadistic towards the prisoners,
and the prisoners were immediately very passive and subordinate towards
the guards. The guards treated the prisoners like scum because "they
deserved it", and the prisoners accepted their low status.
It's entirely possible that the behavioural differences you observe
between the higher and lower grades of the Federation could be produced
simply by telling people "you are an alpha", "you are a delta" and so on.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:11:08 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Chris Chivers
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0113081108-c72Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
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Does anyone know where to contact Chris Chivers? A friend wants permission to
reprint a B7 story that he wrote.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:08:56 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <Space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Redemption+zines
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0113170856-199Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Richard is going over to the states in about three weeks time. This means that
he can get a load of imported zines without having to pay the airmail postage.
If anyone wants to pre-order zines for collection at Redemption, please let me
know the titles now. Any zine that I agent for Linda Knights, Maverick Press or
Nicholle Petty can be ordered this way.
We can't quote an exact price as it depends on what the zines cost to mail
internally in the US, but you're probably looking at an average saving of around
2 pounds per zine on my normal UK price.
This system worked very well at Deliverance.
So, if you want your copy of Bizzaro or any other zine, pre-order it and then
we'll save it for you. We'll be bringing a mixed stock of other zines, but
there'll only be a few copies of any given title, and if Deliverance is anything
to go by, most of them will be sold pretty quickly.
Richard can only carry/pull/trolley balance three boxes of zines theough the
airport, etc. When they're full, they're full.
Details of all the zines I import are on my web page, or if you don't have web
access, send me an SAE for a list of titles. (28 Diprose rd, Corfe Mullen,
Wimborne, Dorset, BH21 3QY, England)
I hope to have two new zines of my own available by the convention. The Star
Cops zine is making good progress and several people are working like Trojans on
the art. Chiaroscuro/Purgatorio (provisionally titled 'Renaissance') is
virtually done. Just two pictures and the last of the layout to be done. This
is going to be an absolutely lovely zine. The cover art is a delight. It's set
in Renaissance Italy and is a must for any fan of Avon, Blake and Vila.
I've got to get them in print in the next few weeks as there's no way I'll have
the time to do it closer to Redemption.
Judith
"Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so."
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:59:36 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.SC@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: space-city@world.std.com
Cc: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: SC: Redemption+zines
Message-ID: <kXOdzLAY0On2Ew9i@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <Marcel-1.46-0113170856-199Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>, Judith
Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> writes
>The cover art is a delight. It's set
>in Renaissance Italy and is a must for any fan of Avon, Blake and Vila.
Having just seen a copy - it is indeed.
--
Julia Jones
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:02:37 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism?
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Calle wrote:
>That's a creative definition [of a fascist]. It includes libertarians, yes?
Absolutely! There's nothing half as oppressive as freedom.
Actually I believe in anarchist dictatorship. As I suspect a lot of
anarchists secretly do.
>[Tanith Lee] has written SF as well as fantasy. Although it is social SF
rather
>than hardcore techno-SF, so I doubt you'd enjoy it.
Like I said, I only tried two fantasy novels. One was The Birthgrave, I
forget the title of the other. I never got more than a dozen pages into
either. But that was probably because of her style - one of my all time
favourites is Ursula LeGuin's The Dispossessed, which is hardly in the
hardcore techno league.
>RAH is often accused of having been a fascist, yes. That doesn't make
>it true.
Only by my definition.
>Many, possibly all, of his works is firmly based in the myth
>of the "competent man", the individual who through his own wits and
>good qualities overcome great difficulties. This doesn't go very well
>with fascism, since one of the central parts of fascism is the
>subordination of the individual to the collective.
But the 'myth of the "competent man"' is only half a mighty bound away from
the Nazi misinterpretation of the Nietzschean Ubermensch. Odd, isn't it,
how nearly everyone who goes for the Ubermensch idea automatically casts
themselves as a prime example. Odder still (or maybe not) how all these
self-proclaimed Ubermenschen seem supremely unqualified for the role.
>RAH was also very fond of provoking people
Tut tut, shouldn't be allowed...
>which is why he wrote "Starship Troopers".
Not read the book, but I loved the film. It seemed to parody everything the
book is cited as standing for
>Actually, it pretty
>much killed heroic fantasy for me, since I just keep seeing the thinly
>veiled jews from "The Iron Dream" in the of "evil" races of fantasy
>(Tolkien's orcs, for example). Spinrad did an extremely good job, and
>it's well worth buying (if you can find it, it was *way* too
>provocative to sell well).
I believe it was Moorcock who did the hatchet job on Tolkien. Heroic
fantasy, I think, is almost inevitably doomed to be right wing, if not
actually fascist as such (sensible definition of, not my bullshit). Indeed,
the
whole concept of adventurism - focussing as it does on the triumph of the
individual over a hostile world - is not for pinko lefties. Intrinsic to
the adventuring spirit is a release from the constraints of civilised
society, where the option of deploying force is always available, where life
is something to be conquered. I've just finished reading a book on 19thC
African explorers (Livingstone, Stanley etc) where the author argues that
they would all have voted for Thatcher. The same is true of mercenaries
(thinking of another book on Katanga, Biafra, Angola etc), which I only
mention because it makes Del Grant a bit of an oddball.
B7 is adventurist, pitting as it does a small band of 'heroes' against a
hostile universe. They live and act outside the social organism, not within
it. Their position is essentially adversarial. Violence is frequently used
as a means of securing their ends. So where does B7 stand politically
(meaning as a TV series, not the political position of the characters or
indeed the scriptwriters)? Back in the AltaZine days, a question like this
would be a cue for a five page polemic, but I'll spare everyone that here.
Instead I'll just throw it open to any takers.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:18:10 PST
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Vila and Deltas and stuff
Message-ID: <19990113211811.20373.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello All!
Nice post from pat, however, a tad naive:
?
This question is already looming in our "real world" as manufacturing
becomes increasingly automated. And, advances in molecular biology and
chemistry are fast promising to replace wood, stone and metal with
ceramics cast of simple sand and capable of assuming most any color,
shape and size. I always laugh when I see the "miners" breaking rocks
with pick axes in Blakes 7 and other "future" shows (like the Deep Space
9 mirror universe, where the humans are made to work in the mines).
As a biologist and as a person who has worked in a factory I
offer this: Pat seems to think that technological advances would all but
eliminate the need for physical labor.
Nope, aint true.
Sport shoes use some of the advanced polymers yet made, yet they are
assembled in developing countries and imported into the USA and other
countries because underpaid human labor is cheaper, *more accurate* and
better made than from using an automated process ( and using more
expensive skilled labor in the USA)
Pat also said:
That sort
of primitive work would be considered ludicrous in light of current
techno capabilities. Just as, in the future, it would be silly to show
slaves picking cotton in the fields to spin cloth to make clothing,
Hmmm...see the sport example above. They aint paid very well. And if
you don't like that example, check the label on the back of your
clothes.
Then Pat said:
picking away in the mines on Horizon.
Own any precious stones? The mining process is large automated
now, but these materials must still be sighted by human eye, often up
close and personal. So Trek, B7 and DS9 do have it right- you still need
a person, often in dangerous/uncomfortable places, to be able to discern
what is going on.
Plus, Pat said:
Certainly, we know that fashion designers still flourish, thanks in
large part to Servalan!
Absolutely True! :)
poor in the USA today, with their tv dinners and color tv's and heated
apartments, live better than kings did in days of yore (eating porridge
with only a sorry fool for entertainment in cold stone halls). But they
feel poor because they're watching Dallas and Falcon Crest on those
color tv's."
Yeah, but the King had responsibilty and a definite say in their
role in society. Many poor people in the past also had a role in their
society, and felt worthy in their society. You would find this be the
case in many non western societies as well. However, many western poor
people do not have feelings of worth in our societies.
I think, in a way, this is what Blakes 7 addressed in a way- how people
are turned into nothing more than mass consumers of commodities, who
have to be controlled. As you said Pat, the brave new world may be upon
us; that does not mean you can't scream about it.
Edith
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:28:22 PST
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: pdreadful@hotmail.com
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas
Message-ID: <19990113212822.12683.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Penny (and all)
This little blurb:
Slaves have one major advantage over machines: they don't want to die.
As individuals, or as genetic lines. They're self-repairing and
self-reproducing, and will make full creative use of whatever materials
are made available to them, just in order to stay alive. In other words
(assuming you buy 'em in bulk) they're cheap, low-maintenance, and
suited to an almost infinite variety of niches.
<lol> Is perfectly dreadful, and very right!
If that's the lifestyle of the poor in the USA today, then who were
those people I saw sleeping on the steps of the Seattle Public Library a
few years back? The middle class on an urban camping trip?
<LOL> Very awful, and too damn hilarious. I had to split a sandwich
with some poor soul here in Portland because he looked pitiful. Was he
on drugs or drunk? I don't know, I don't care really.
Edith
-
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:44:18 PST
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: kat@welkin.apana.org.au
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Working for a Living (was Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas)
Message-ID: <19990113214419.29609.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Such wonderful and interesting posts!
But I have a small bone to pick with Kathryn's cool post:
Sooo, Kathryn said:
"Another question is, though, were Delta grades officially taught to
read? I'm just thinking of a more modern dictatorship (I forget
where, Bangladesh?) where schools have been deliberately closed, in
order to bring up a generation who are deliberately ignorant, so that
they can be more easily opressed. I can see that working for the
Federation, who could consider education a privaledge, not a right.
Alphas and Betas could be educated fully, but Deltas could be limited
to audio-visual things without writing. Actually, no, that wouldn't
work, because they would still have to be able to read signs, because
there are so many of them in the Federation. Still, restricted
education for the masses still makes sense, from the Federation point
of view. Who was it who said, that the masses never rise by
themselves, they always need a more highly-educated revolutionary to
lead them?"
And Edith says:
Yes and no. Sure, a memeber of an oppressed group who is relatively
well educated may will start a mass revolutionary movement ( Mao Tse
Tung, Dr Martin Luther King, jr.) but they cannot change things with the
full backing and *leadership* of the people they are trying to help. In
Mao case, Hundreds of years of oppressive traditions combined with
percieved western oppression had convinced hundreds of millions of
chinese to join and accept Mao's cause. The same with Dr. King- he and
his fellow intellectual cohorts came from some of best schools in
America, yet the majority of people who did the preaching, voter
registration and marching were ordinary folk- farm workers, millworkers,
domestic servants and street cleaners.
Edith Spencer :)
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