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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 286
Today's Topics:
[B7L]
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Re: [B7L] Stephen Greif Question
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
[B7L] Re: Horizon policy
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
[B7L] Danni Lighter
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
[B7L] Re: Stephen Greif Question
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Re: [B7L] Manchester
Re: [B7L] Spatials, speed and relativity
Re: [B7L] Stephen Greif Question
RE: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
RE: [B7L] Stephen Greif Question
Re: [B7L] Danni Lighter
Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
[B7L] Adult Warnings
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:23:25 GMT
From: "Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L]
Message-ID: <19991008122326.26420.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Thought you should all see this.
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Gies (Horizon)
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 3:58 PM
To: kathy@songbird.nascr.net
Cc: tuckers@easynet.co.uk; gillian@mpuddle.freeserve.co.uk;
jager@clara.net; paula.robinson@rcn.org.uk; rae@clara.net;
sue.cowley@bbc.co.uk; JudithSmith@csl-deloitte.co.uk
Subject: Horizon policy decision
Dear All,
At various times I think I've spoken to you all about my feelings on
Fan Porn, particularly relating to 'adult pictures' and accessability to the
uninitiated and recently I've been more and more unhappy about how easy it
is to find fan-porn on the internet, & how easy it is to stumble over adult
zines at guest-conventions.
B7 was always a PG show and whilst I've no objection to fans wanting to
write adult stuff and sell it to other consenting adults in private, I don't
think the vast industry in fan-porn is healthy. It is promoted as a
mainstream interest and as something new fans should be told about as soon
as they are told about 'regular' stuff, which I don't agree with. The idea
of our own Ultra 1 was to have adult stories, with non-PG rated sex scenes
as part of a proper dramatic story (plus humorous little romps) but some of
what's out there is so far removed from anything resembling B7 as we know it
that I don't believe it should be so easily accessible.
I can't do anything about what other people sell, and I wouldn't want
to try, but I don't see why Horizon should help them. Therefore, I would
like to implement a new advertising policy which would broadly encompass the
following points:
Advertising of fanzine Dealers in Orac's Oddments. Up till now we've
been advertising, for free, stuff sold by any club member, whilst asking
them to reciprocally advertise us. We have no way of knowing whether these
people DO advertise us and I've discovered for sure that Judith Proctor
certainly doesn't in any of her printed literature though she does on her
website.
The new policy would be that free for sale ads would only cover 'one
off' sales (selling off a collection, or one item) rather than for people
who trade as fan or pro dealers. We could then have an advertising fee for
any dealers still wanting to advertise up to a maximum of xxxx words (yet to
be decided, but enough to give their name, address and extremely brief
description of what they sell - eg. B7/ST/DW fanzines or X Files & other
Trading Cards, or B7 audio tapes, etc.) We could waive the fee at our
discretion if the items were all being sold for charity (requiring proof) or
they guaranteed in writing that they were reciprocally advertising us.
Further, they would be required to sign something to confirm that they
did not produce, or agent for others, any B7 fan fiction containing 'adult'
artwork. If they want to sell adult fiction, that's up to them, but the
majority of the cast hate the idea of explicit artwork and so do I, as you
all know. We would obviously have to advise them what we considered
'explicit', eg. no nudity, and no portraits that would look out of place in
a PG rated zine and cause anyone to think "ey-up... bet they're going to be
having a **** any minute now".
Conventions - I don't believe that guests and adult artwork mix. I
don't want Horizon to advertise any convention that has a B7 guest unless
they confirm in writing that there will be a ban on dealers selling adult B7
fiction with explicit art content and, further, that any adult fiction
without such pictures will not be openly displayed on the sales table but
will be hidden away behind and anyone wanting to view it will have to ask
for it, rather than having it in a box on the table marked 'adult' - thus
creating a knowledge that such things exist in the person passing by.
What happens with other fandoms I can't be bothered to worry about, but
since the B7 people are our Honorary Members, I want to at least do
something in our own 'universe'. If they don't have a B7 guest, fine, let
them do what they like. Those of you who were with me at Cult TV 2 weeks
ago will know how upset I was to find that Judith Proctor was blatantly
selling such stuff, including a quite disgusting zine with graphic sexual
artwork, from her table top, whilst sitting selling photos & together again
tapes next to Paul at his autograph session (courtesy of Sheelagh Wells
arranging this). She was overheard the next day by someone - who doesn't
wish her name mentioned - having a conversation that clearly indicated that
she was well aware how he would feel if he knew what she was selling
(along the lines of "gosh you were so lucky sitting with him all that
time..." "yes, lucky he didn't know what I was selling..." ) That wasn't
the exact conversation, but that's what was basically happening. I can't
stop her selling this stuff, and to all intents and purposes laughing in
his face about it, but I don't see why I should make it easy for her. She
was also making the point while she was selling the tapes that "Oh, you
can't get these from Horizon any more..." which didn't help to endear her
to me, but that's another story.
Apart from dealers conditions at a con with a B7 guest, there'd also
need to be a condition about the art/model displays at the convention (ie.
prohibiting any 'adult' art being displayed, even if it was 'hidden').
Websites - from Horizon's links section, you only effectively need to
do 3 quick 'clicks' through Proctor's site to get into reading X-rated
excerpts from zines on her own site. In several cases there isn't even any
warning and depending on which bits of her site you start off reading, you
don't necessarily get an explanation of what slash fiction, for example,
means so the non-fan who has done a search for Blake's 7 can come into the
Official Fan Club Site (us!), go through to Proctor's site and immediately
be told that there's loads of fiction featuring explicit sex scenes between
main characters. It's one thing for people to go and buy these zines, where
they have to make some effort and conscious decision to buy, but if it's
just
sitting there on the internet, I think this is awful and there seems to be
so much of it.
Proctor's site links to several others which have the most unbelievably
disgusting porn stories, without even any warnings in some cases (though
others say "Hey, if you're not over 18, go away now" which is really going
to deter the average 13/14 year old playing with dad's computer, isn't it?)
Again, I can't stop them doing this, but I can refuse to link Horizon's site
to any site that has X-rated material anywhere on it, or that links to a
site that does. So I'd be wanting to email all the sites we currently link
with issuing them with an agreement to sign or we can just remove them and
refuse to mention they exist in any shape or form.
Some of you may agree with me 101% (I know some of you do) but others
of you may not agree at all, or think I'm taking this 'crusade' too far. I
want to know what ALL of you think, please, as soon as possible because I
think this is very important, and I don't want to leave things as they are
for much longer. Do you think the conditions I wish to implement are
reasonable? If not, what - if anything - do you suggest.
I'm sending a non-email copy of this to Margaret, Valerie Guy and to
Claire Saunders who I've just co-opted onto the committee to do 'Finding
Publicity Photos' . I'll leave Edna out of it as she doesn't have any idea
this even exists and at 70+ years I don't think she needs to. Obviously
Andy and Alan won't be asked!! I'd appreciate you not discussing this with
anyone outside the committee until the issue has been resolved.
Have a nice day!!
xx Diane
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 08 Oct 1999 14:25:40 +0200
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <uswvsy3upn.fsf@sture.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>>>> "Mac4781" == Mac4781 <Mac4781@aol.com> writes:
> Is this what I think it is? Is "Danni Lighter" forwarding someone else's
> *private* e-mail to the list?
As far as I can tell, yes. I thought about throwing it away for a
moment, but decided not to. It does fit the subject matter of the list
(the TV series "Blake's 7" and its related fandom), and I think it
would be wrong of me to censor it on any other grounds than subject
matter. If you want to complain about it being posted, take it up with
Danni Lighter.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
It is by Perl alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the regex of Larry
that the code acquires flexibility, the flexibility enables obscurity, the
obscurity generates a warning. It is by Perl alone I set my mind in motion.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:30:00 +0100
From: "Angua" <angua@viper244.demon.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stephen Greif Question
Message-ID: <017701bf1188$ec448080$d76b989e@demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carol wrote, re Citizen Smith :
> So, could someone in the know please inform
> me if this was a regular spot Mr Greif had in this show or was it
> only a one off?
It was a regular role, Stephen played Harry Fenning for three seasons of the
show. Harry was the local villain who delighted in mildly terrorising Wolfie
Smith and his motley crew :-) Citizen Smith was one of my favourite shows at the
time, it still is in fact.
Louise
http://starriders.net - Babylon 5 & Crusade, Blake's 7, SF cult tv and movies,
free graphics, and more
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:15:59 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <0.b4f2e88b.252f488f@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Calle wrote:
> As far as I can tell, yes. I thought about throwing it away for a
> moment, but decided not to. It does fit the subject matter of the list
> (the TV series "Blake's 7" and its related fandom), and I think it
> would be wrong of me to censor it on any other grounds than subject
> matter. If you want to complain about it being posted, take it up with
> Danni Lighter.
Actually, what I'd like to know is whether there is a list policy about
posting someone else's private email without permission?
I don't want to read personal mail and I'd be more than little upset to have
private mail I wrote forwarded to a list, even if the subject matter was
related to the list.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: 08 Oct 1999 15:46:06 +0200
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <usr9j63qzl.fsf@sture.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>>>> "Mac4781" == Mac4781 <Mac4781@aol.com> writes:
> Actually, what I'd like to know is whether there is a list policy
> about posting someone else's private email without permission?
There is not. Common netiquette dictates that one does not post
private mail without permission, and that is enough. People who
violate netiquette will also violate specific list policies.
Whether such a violation can be warranted or not is a different question.
> I don't want to read personal mail and I'd be more than little upset
> to have private mail I wrote forwarded to a list, even if the
> subject matter was related to the list.
I understand and sympathise, but I have neither the desire nor the
ability to do anything about it. This is not a moderated list. As long
as a post comes from a known subscriber the listbot will send it on
automatically. Danni's posting was a moderately special case, since
she(?) was not a subscriber at the time.
In the end it boils down to "If you don't trust people to keep private
mail private, don't send them mail". It is not a problem specific to
this list, or even specific to electronic mail.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:12:44 -0400
From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@access.mountain.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <h=v9N3v6veNGALcv0ZLVNqhSOMde@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>In the end it boils down to "If you don't trust people to keep private
>mail private, don't send them mail". It is not a problem specific to
>this list, or even specific to electronic mail.
Fwiw, if it had been my list, I wouldn't have forwarded it once I
saw that it was private mail. I understand your position that
this is not a moderated list, but in this case you went to extra
effort to post this mail and I don't think that was the right
decision.
--
Meredith Dixon <dixonm@access.mountain.net>
Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
http://web.mountain.net/~dixonm/raven.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:57:54 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Horizon policy
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1008145754-c72Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Fri 08 Oct, Danni Lighter wrote:
- Calle, Carol, I would assume 'Danni' is a pseudonym. If I were a Horizon
committee member under these circumstances, I think I'd probably want a
pseudonym too.
Personally I'm glad it was posted. Diane Gies is saying things about me that
are untrue and I'm just sending her a note saying that if she doesn't retract
one statement in particular, then I'll be seeing a solicitor.
>
> Advertising of fanzine Dealers in Orac's Oddments. Up till now we've
> been advertising, for free, stuff sold by any club member, whilst asking
> them to reciprocally advertise us. We have no way of knowing whether these
> people DO advertise us and I've discovered for sure that Judith Proctor
> certainly doesn't in any of her printed literature though she does on her
> website.
I used to print Horizon's ad, but the membership secretary changed faster than I
reprinted zines - thus the ad in the zines was frequently out of date. Now I
mail out Horizon's flyers to new zine readers and I take them to conventions
where Horizon are not represented. eg. I had Horizon flyers at Neutral Zone.
(Diane's the one I get the flyers from, so she's not unaware that I hand them
out.)
> Conventions - I don't believe that guests and adult artwork mix. I
> don't want Horizon to advertise any convention that has a B7 guest unless
> they confirm in writing that there will be a ban on dealers selling adult B7
> fiction with explicit art content and, further, that any adult fiction
> without such pictures will not be openly displayed on the sales table but
> will be hidden away behind and anyone wanting to view it will have to ask
> for it, rather than having it in a box on the table marked 'adult' - thus
> creating a knowledge that such things exist in the person passing by.
Personally, I've always sold adult zines in a box clearly marked 'Adult' and I
expect to continue doing so. People who know me from cons will also know that
it's usually my habit to check out anyone looking in the box to be sure that
they know what to expect.
As for 'creating a knowledge' I suspect other people may answer for themselves,
but it's not uncommon to get a reaction of "I wish I'd known this existed years
ago." Denying its existence prevents those who would want it from finding it.
Note that Diane's dictat would forbid an advert even when the B7 guest in
question didn't personally care whether zines were sold above or below the
table. I imagne Paul would be happier if it wasn't sold, but the cast (just
like fans) are a mixed bunch of individuals and probably have varied feelings on
the topic.
> Those of you who were with me at Cult TV 2 weeks ago will know how upset I
> was to find that Judith Proctor was blatantly selling such stuff, including a
> quite disgusting zine with graphic sexual artwork, from her table top, whilst
> sitting selling photos & together again tapes next to Paul at his autograph
> session (courtesy of Sheelagh Wells arranging this).
One person I know read this statement as saying that I was selling adult zines
from Paul's table. I don't think Diane's actually implying that, but I'll
stress that this most certainly was not the case. All I sold from Paul's table
was tapes and photos.
> She was overheard the next day by someone - who doesn't wish her name
> mentioned - having a conversation that clearly indicated that she was well
> aware how he would feel if he knew what she was selling (along the lines of
> "gosh you were so lucky sitting with him all that time..." "yes, lucky he
> didn't know what I was selling..." )
This is 100% untrue and I'm not surprised that the person invented the
fabrication doesn't want their name mentioning - if indeed that person exists
anywhere outside Diane's imagination.
> That wasn't the exact conversation, but that's what was basically
> happening. I can't stop her selling this stuff, and to all intents and
> purposes laughing in his face about it, but I don't see why I should make it
> easy for her.
I prefer Gareth to Paul, always have done. Even Paul knows that - teases me
about it. What I have for Paul is respect and liking. He has his faults - just
as Gareth does. He also has many aspects that I can admire.
One thing I have never done and never will do is to print explicit art in my own
zines. (I'll sell other people's zines - I don't pretend to impose my personal
ethics on anyone else) The reason I don't is simple. Paul Darrow. A long time
ago, he was courteous to a newbie fan who confessed to being a slash writer.
(He doesn't like slash - he's entitled to his own feeling on the subject just as
everyone else is) My own personal way of appreciating that courtesy is not to
publish explicit art.
Slash and Paul Darrow is not something that I could ever find amusing.
> Websites - from Horizon's links section, you only effectively need to
> do 3 quick 'clicks' through Proctor's site to get into reading X-rated
> excerpts from zines on her own site.
which zines? On the web site, I post non-explicit extracts even from my adult
zines.
> Some of you may agree with me 101% (I know some of you do) but others
> of you may not agree at all, or think I'm taking this 'crusade' too far. I
> want to know what ALL of you think, please, as soon as possible because I
> think this is very important, and I don't want to leave things as they are
> for much longer. Do you think the conditions I wish to implement are
> reasonable? If not, what - if anything - do you suggest.
Not that I've been asked <grin>, but it always seems to me that people from both
sides (if indeed there are sides) can live together quite happily and share what
they both enjoy. The Lysator list and Freedom City live happily alongside one
another - many of us are members of both.
I publish both adult and non-adult zines. My two best sellers to date are both
zines that don't even have a hint of sex in them. The 3rd best seller is full
of explicit homosexual scenes. People read what they want to read.
If people who sell adult zines are banned from advertising in Horizon, then that
makes the genzines unavailable to those not on the net.
>
> I'm sending a non-email copy of this to Margaret, Valerie Guy and to
> Claire Saunders who I've just co-opted onto the committee to do 'Finding
> Publicity Photos' . I'll leave Edna out of it as she doesn't have any idea
> this even exists and at 70+ years I don't think she needs to. Obviously
> Andy and Alan won't be asked!!
sounds like democracy in action...
> I'd appreciate you not discussing this with anyone outside the committee
> until the issue has been resolved.
Thank you to whoever ignored this request. I don't like being libelled behind
my back.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:04:49 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <jihorner@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <003d01bf118d$b4e79500$0f4995c1@orac>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-----Original Message-----
From: Mac4781@aol.com <Mac4781@aol.com>
>Calle wrote:
>
>> This got stuck in the spamtrap, forwarded since it's B7-related.
>
>Is this what I think it is? Is "Danni Lighter" forwarding
>someone else's *private* e-mail to the list?
Looks like it. Isn't that rather poor form? Should we pretend we
haven't seen it?
Julie Horner
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 17:55:36 +0100
From: Judith Rolls <jager@clara.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Danni Lighter
Message-Id: <Version.32.19991008175119.00df0b90@pop.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 13:23 08/10/99 , Danni Lighter wrote:
>Thought you should all see this.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Diane Gies (Horizon)
>Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 3:58 PM
(snip)
Why?
It was an unsolicited private message, and the forwarding of it to a public
forum can only be considered a malicious act.
Not impressed, not interested, not involved.
Judith
http://home.clara.net/jager/
------------------------------
Date: 08 Oct 1999 16:19:22 +0200
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <usln9e3pg5.fsf@sture.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>>>> "Meredith" == Meredith Dixon <dixonm@access.mountain.net> writes:
> I understand your position that this is not a moderated list, but in
> this case you went to extra effort to post this mail and I don't
> think that was the right decision.
I gave my reason earlier. If you want to argue further, take it to
private mail or the spin list.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:34:04 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <0.a34db57d.252f850c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 10/08/1999 6:18:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Mac4781@aol.com writes:
> Actually, what I'd like to know is whether there is a list policy about
> posting someone else's private email without permission?
>
> I don't want to read personal mail and I'd be more than little upset to
have
> private mail I wrote forwarded to a list, even if the subject matter was
> related to the list.
This was a concern I had too, Carol, and I sympathize. However, I also have
to wonder how Danni Lighter got this message in the first place. I think
it's likely that Danni Lighter is a pseudonym. Anyway, my feelings are very
mixed. I understand the privacy issue, but I also have the feeling that
someone on Horizon's committe may be trying to do us a favor, even if they
chose a bad way to do it.
My other concern, as the owner of the Freedom City list, is that this could
be the beginning of a slash witch hunt. At any rate, it convinces me that
FC's policy of not advertising to the public is a wise one. At least with
some advance warning, I can take steps to protect the list and it's members.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 11:28:47 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
Message-ID: <37FE37DF.6184@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I don't know. Kerr my sort of like having laryngitis. Then he could just
give scathing looks, and save up his witticisms for later, without
having to interact much with the others. Of course, what he would LOVE
is for all the others to have laryngitis and him not. "At last, nothing
but intelligent conversation."
--Avona, who had to be silent for a week not long ago due to bronchitis,
and found she rather enjoyed the verbal isolation from her coworkers.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 11:44:14 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
Message-ID: <37FE3B7E.EC6@jps.net>
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> Of course, Quantum Mechanics allows strictly secure key distribution using a
> technique called Quantum Cryptography, so all that messing about getting
> Cally captured, in order to obtain the Federation cyper machine suggests
> that Blakes 7 isn't a quantum world either.
>
> I hope this rather techy post hasn't bored anybody to much.
>
> Andrew
No, I love the techy posts.
Could it be that the Federation doesn't really understand the
possibilities?
I'm trying to think of some reasonable cause for this, but failing-- but
somehow, drugging their engineers seems likely to be near the root of
the problem.
We never heard of Avon inventing anything until he went into space and
got everything out of his systen, and then, the cloaking device (for
sale, cheap, only used once).
Mm.... could it be that the transformation from 'geek' to 'space pirate'
was a matter of a drug-free system?
Whoops, I've managed to totally change the topic. Please, back to
Quantum ciphering. If I was a Federation scientist, I think I'd want to
use my unbreakable cipher to send private messages that Big Brother
couldn't read. How's that for a reason that technology isn't in official
use?
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:28:09 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Stephen Greif Question
Message-ID: <199910081428_MC2-8837-DD74@compuserve.com>
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Carol 'Hondo' asked about Citizen Smith:
>So, could someone in the know please inform me if this
>was a regular spot Mr Greif had in this show or was it
> only a one off?
Yes, there were quite a few appearances by Mr [whatever his name was] and
his young friends. (What did Shirley's mum call them? His foster
children?)
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:25:40 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
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Re: Diane's post:
I must say, I don't think Paul would be offended at Judith Proctor's
adult fanzines sales, and here is why...
I like getting autographs from the stars on some of my own fanwork-- a
peom, story or drawing that features their character. When I asked him
to autograph a poem I'd written, he hadn't time to read it, as there was
quite a line, but he asked me if it was racy (not his exact wording,
maybe he said porno, I don't remember, but the meaning was clear). I
said "No" and he said "Too bad."
And then, with Paul and Michael in a panel, they get very silly and a
lot of their jokes have sexual content.
In short, he's no prude, and I think he gets a kick out of the fan's
salacious interests.
I'm all for treating the actors with respect, but how about respecting
the fact that they have a balanced sense of humor?
About 'no adult art' at conventions-- GRRR!
There are things I've seen that I considered in poor taste. I can shrug
and move on to the next picture, thank you. But my husband is an artist,
and in keeping with classical traditions, often does nude or partially
nude figures. He cannot display these at many shows already, governments
and businesses being so afraid of lawsuits these days. The local science
fiction convention is one of the few places he can show his mythological
pictures, such as Isis Resurrecting Osiris. It's not sexy, it just shows
her bare-breasted, true to Egyptian styles. Now, here in the States,
that's unacceptable at a lot of shows. The same way Michaelangelo's
David or Botticelli's Aphrodite are unacceptable to a lot of right-wing
fools.
Please, those of you who actually are where most of these conventions
are taking place, I ask that you stand opposed to censorship. It should
be enough that adult works are labelled as such and kept out of the way
of minors without parental consent. Whether or not you read 'slash',
respect freedom of information. Why should we hide the fact it does
exist?
It amazes me that the fans of a show that is, after all, about opposing
the surpression of individual rights, should attempt to surpress rights
in the name of respect for the show. "But Blake's 7 is about political
rights." Once someone can determine what you read they can determine how
you think. Not that what you think of one TV show matters, but the
principle is important.
The priniciple is important.
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:25:17 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <018d01bf11d4$413207c0$f711063e@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
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Carol Mc wrote
>Calle wrote:
>
>> This got stuck in the spamtrap, forwarded since it's B7-related.
>
>Is this what I think it is? Is "Danni Lighter" forwarding someone else's
>*private* e-mail to the list?
>
Just goes to show that the internet is not a secure means of communication.
Look at the recent Hotmail scare. Somebody obviously has Orac scanning for
interesting snippets.
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:05:54 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Manchester
Message-ID: <018c01bf11d4$403f6a60$f711063e@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
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>Andrew Ellis wrote:
>
>> To start things off.... I'm in Suffolk, UK.
So Una asked
>
>Whereabouts, Andrew? There are quite a few of us over in the big city
>(i.e. Cambridge) ;)
>
Ipswich, where we once had a theatre .....
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:40:53 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Spatials, speed and relativity
Message-ID: <000601bf11d9$85417c20$e916ac3e@default>
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Andrew wrote
>Of course, Quantum Mechanics allows strictly secure key distribution using
a
>technique called Quantum Cryptography, so all that messing about getting
>Cally captured, in order to obtain the Federation cyper machine suggests
>that Blakes 7 isn't a quantum world either.
Surely quantum mechanics is passe these days. Chaos theory has superceded
it. I think we should view B7 as a Chaotic world (various location reports
and studio stories in B7: The Inside Story suggest it got extremely chaotic
at times). Though I'm not sure which of the crew might best be described as
a Strange Attractor...
Fanfic, naturally, is woefully behind the times. I only know of one story
that contains the word 'fractal' (and I ought to know about it, since I
wrote it). I did have a story idea about the Liberator encountering a giant
3-dimensional Mandelbrot set floating around in space, but then that was
shortly after I came out from seeing Event Horizon thinking what a load of
old bollocks it was.
>Perhaps next time we debate the science
>behind Blakes 7 we should bear in mind Quantum mechanics, and the
scientific
>joining of Quantum mechanics and Relativity in a Quantum theory of Gravity.
The danger of pitching it at that level is that you might end up debating
alone:)
Actually, B7 is so far ahead that relativity and quantum mechanics would
probably be relegated to the same quaint-but-useless file as Copernicus and
Aristotle. Blake and his contemporaries would view the universe as
described by Squirble's Theory, which states that a ship will be forced to
flee from hordes of pursuit ships just before one of the two crew members
down on the planet breaks his ankle.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:41:20 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stephen Greif Question
Message-ID: <000701bf11d9$861287c0$e916ac3e@default>
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Carol wrote, re Stephen Greif in Citizen Smith
>So, could someone in the know please inform
> me if this was a regular spot Mr Greif had in this show or was it
> only a one off? Ta Very Much..
I think he was semi-regular, ie not in every episode.
So you'll have to watch them all:)
Last time I saw Citizen Smith was soon after UK Gold was launched. It used
to be on either just before or just after It Ain't Half Hot, Mum, I think.
Was anyone from B7 ever in that? How about putting Sergeant-Major Shut-Up
aboard the Liberator?
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:06:49 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #285
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F7958A6@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
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Avona wrote:
> Whether or not you read 'slash',
> respect freedom of information. Why should we hide the fact it does
> exist?
I entirely agree. Freedom of information is a lot more important than the
right to stick your head in the sand and pretend that everything outside
fits exactly into your worldview. Those who wish to do so can go live on
some deserted island for all I care. Yes I know that's not a very nice thing
to say, but for one thing, I don't particularly feel like being nice right
now and for another, someone who tries to dictate what you can tell people
because s/he doesn't like to know that it exists or be reminded of that fact
is in fact trying to force you and everyone you talk to to live on such a
self-created island.
In short: there are and always will be things in this world that a lot of
people don't like to know about. Forbidding others to talk about these
things is *not* an acceptable solution to that problem.
> "But Blake's 7 is about political rights."
Exactly, and freedom of speech is one of the most important of those
political rights. On the London, when Blake told Avon and Jenna exactly what
he was fighting for, that was in fact the very first thing he mentioned.
> The principle is important.
I couldn't agree more.
As for sending private mail on to the list: I'm kinda of two minds about
this. I know it's not right and would never have done it myself (Although I
most certainly would have sent it on to Judith. Send me something in which
you maliciously slander someone the way it happened in that mail and I
*will* forward the mail to that person and then let you know that I did
this), and the fact that the original sender of the mail didn't come out
smelling like roses (more like the stuff used to feed roses, in fact) still
doesn't make it right. But I do feel that this is an important subject, and
I'm glad I found out about it.
For those of you who didn't know it yet: I don't like slash or het. So I
just ignore it when I come across it. I believe that that is a far more
mature reaction than trying to force everyone around you to change to suit
your tastes.
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:51:04 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Stephen Greif Question
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F7958A7@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
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Neil wrote:
> How about putting Sergeant-Major Shut-Up
> aboard the Liberator?
I'd like to see Bombardier Beaumont and Gunner Sugden aboard the Liberator.
Or the entire cast of It Ain't Half Hot, Mum finding themselves on an
abandoned Liberator. Thanks a lot for bringing it up, Neil, I now have this
picture in my mind that just won't go away of both of the officers (forgot
their names) sitting on the couch having tea, while Bombardier Beaumont is
desperately trying to get something to work with Sergeant-Major Shut-Up
yelling in his ear to move it already. And Gunner Graham looking pained
because they are getting *everything* wrong. And Gunner Sugden accidentally
firing one of the 'elaborate toothpicks' at the ceiling.
I may have to write this, just to get it out of my head.
Aaaarrrggghhh!!!!
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:51:39 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Danni Lighter
Message-ID: <008101bf11ea$f4a5f6c0$e916ac3e@default>
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I don't really care about the rights and wrongs of forwarding private
e-mails, I'm just glad that this horrendous information has come to light.
'Danni Lighter' has done the right thing by letting us know.
I'm no fan of slash by any stretch of the imagination, but I find Gies'
draconian proposals quite appalling. What comes ringing through her letter
is her own personal aversion (note her use of 'disgusting') to what she
calls porn and her implicit claim to speak for the majority of fandom.
Well, from my experience of fandom, the overwhelming majority of fans are
intelligent adults who are neither easily shocked nor incapable of making
their own minds up about something. Who exactly are these virginal
innocents that Gies has opted to protect from the oh so wicked world of
fandom-beyond-Horizon? There are 13-year olds out there who know more about
sex than I ever will - is there really anyone to 'protect'?
As to the cast - well, I only know the opinions of two of them, one not
liking it, and one not being terribly bothered. Or so I've been told - the
whole slash thing is so emotive that you can't really trust what anyone
says. I believe Gies has claimed in the past that most if not all of the
regular cast are opposed to adult material ('It is also well known
that -none- of our Honorary Members are keen on slash fiction' - Gies
enditorial to Horizon Letterzine #14), while pro-slashers make various
claims to the contrary. People hear what they want to hear.
I really find it hard to fathom exactly where Gies stands. She can't be
opposed to adult material as such, since she endorses Horizon's own adult
zine ('with non-PG rated sex scenes
as part of a proper dramatic story (plus humorous little romps)'). Nor does
she seem overly concerned with slash in particular ('What happens with other
fandoms I can't be bothered to worry about'). It's the intrusion of slash
into B7 that seems to get her riled.
As to the suggestion that some fan material 'is so far removed from anything
resembling B7 as we know it that I don't believe it should be so easily
accessible', I find that absolutely frightening. Granted a significant
percentage of fanfic is pretty far removed from the source material, but
that just goes to illustrate the very flexibility of that source material.
That in itself hardly justifies making it less accessible. Horizon has
printed some pretty off-the-wall material in their own zines - such as Ellen
A Rufkin's 'Passable Features' - should these be made less accessible?
(Though there's a strong case where Rufkin's concerned.) Again, there's
more than a whiff of arrogating the right to decide what's good for other
people. People who, by and large, are not going to be unduly bothered by
what they find or going to be glad they've found it.
We can at least give her credit for admitting at the end of her letter that
she knows hers is not the only opinion, and for soliciting feedback, albeit
from a select group of individuals.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:34:21 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] ["Danni Lighter" <danlite@hotmail.com>] New Horizon Policy
Message-ID: <19991009093421.A4171@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 02:04:49PM +0100, Julie Horner wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mac4781@aol.com <Mac4781@aol.com>
>
> >Calle wrote:
> >
> >> This got stuck in the spamtrap, forwarded since it's B7-related.
> >
> >Is this what I think it is? Is "Danni Lighter" forwarding
> >someone else's *private* e-mail to the list?
>
> Looks like it. Isn't that rather poor form? Should we pretend we
> haven't seen it?
Yep. If and when this thing becomes official Horizon policy, we can
disuss it then. Until then, let us politely pretend we haven't seen
it. (Apart from Judith P who really does have a right to defend
herself against slander). What we may say privately is another
matter, but we probably shouldn't discuss this in a public forum.
Give Horizon a chance to discuss it amongst themselves first.
Who knows, they may change their minds.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:41:01 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Adult Warnings
Message-ID: <19991009084101.C4056@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Something in that Danni Lighter post that made me think...
> disgusting porn stories, without even any warnings in some cases
> (though others say "Hey, if you're not over 18, go away now" which is
> really going to deter the average 13/14 year old playing with dad's
> computer, isn't it?)
...struck me as unreasonable. I mean, *excuse me*, this is the
internet, you can't *control* where people click, you can only warn
them. Is that not reasonable?
Logically, there are three options that I can think of.
1) warn people not to proceed further. This, of course, could be
ignored by determined perversion-seekers.
2) Have a password policy which requires people to send an age
statement before being given a password. This is about as useful as
(1) for deterring those mythical determined 14-year-olds, since they could
always lie.
3) don't have the stuff there in the first place. Which is I guess
what DG really wanted.
Personally, I think putting warnings up is reasonable. Me, I *don't*
want to come across pornographic stuff by accident. I want to be
warned, so I can avoid it. Whether this be on the internet, or in
zines. *Not* warning is wrong. But expecting something more than a
warning (*what* more?) is unreasonable.
Opinions?
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #286
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