From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #6 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume99/6 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Re: [B7L] Free time again Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Re: [B7L] Homophobia Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Re: [B7L] Free time again Re: [B7L] Homophobia Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting even longer) Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Re: [B7L] Homophobia Re: [B7L] Homophobia Re: [B7L] The Liberator Re: [B7L] Free time again [B7L] David Walsh Re: [B7L] Homophobia Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) [B7L] Re: Free time again Re: [B7L] Homophobia [B7L] Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 02:11:10 PST From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Message-ID: <19990108101110.5922.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Carol Mc: >Tarrant naked. Now we're getting into a subject that I can enjoy. >Oh, you mean figuratively speaking. Getting momentarily serious, >that's a great observation. He did seem more fretful over the lack >of weaponry than anyone else. Probably the way Soolin would feel >without a gun. Soolin naked? I can cope with that idea... But I digress. I think Soolin would be more than capable of delivering a good sound kicking, should she be deprived of her piece. Why? Fast + intelligent + ruthless = don't get into a fight with me, sunshine. If that makes any sense. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 02:38:53 PST From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again Message-ID: <19990108103853.2079.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Seeing as we're playing these games again, I'd like to jump in with one of my own. I'm shopping around for a used car, and wondering whether to go for a Volvo or a 405. Or maybe even a Citroen XM. So, while I'm thinking about all this, what else is going to pop into my little head? Like duh! What would the B7 lot go for, if they were around in the late 1990s? Obvious thing to think, really. Blake: I can see Blake being a bit of a Volvo man. He'd want something sturdy and solid, that would just plough through anyone who tried to argue with him. Servalan: Servie's a TVR girl. No explanation needed. Cally (Seasons 1 and 2): One of those zippy old Renault 5's that people used to kill themselves in every other week. Cally (Season 3): A Volkswagen Polo with a catalytic converter. And a sticker on the back, saying something along the lines of, "Nuclear power no thanks save the dolphins I've gone green". Soolin: A black BMW. You wouldn't even hear it coming, and you wouldn't be around to see it going, either. Avon: Something extremely expensive. Something not too garish, but it would have to yell, "Oi! Look at me you b*****ds -- I'm loaded!" Hm. Maybe some kind of Merc. Vila: Ford Escort. Stolen. Tarrant: Land Rover Defender. Possibly armoured. Gan: I can see Gan quite happily pottering around in a Ford Cortina. Never mind the fact that it'd cost a fortune to run -- as long as it gets him to the pie shop once in a while, he won't have any cause to complain. Travis: A tank. What else? Any other ideas? -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:58:52 +0000 (GMT) From: "U.M. Mccormack" <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.990108105510.28421A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Neil said: >Who the hell started all this anyway? And joanne answered: >You did, chuckie, you did <smile> This is what you get for objecting to Una's taste in music. Oh God, now everyone has me down as a bloody Floyd fan. Let me nip this false rumour in the bud - I do not like Pink Floyd. Except Pink floyd (1). I have much dirtier secrets, like two 1980s compilation CDs and an addiction to the Spice Girls. Neil, that list was brilliant. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:04:57 +0000 (GMT) From: "U.M. Mccormack" <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Homophobia Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.990108110300.28421B-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dunne (Martin Lydon) wrote: >Homophobia? You're going to have to help me with this! >What elements of Homophobia can be detected in Robert Holme's four B7 scripts? >(Killer, Gambit, Traitor and Orbit) >Martin > Neil followed with: >Well, maybe it's just my (mis)perception, but I think we can safely read >a homosexual dimension in the case of Krantor/Toise and Egrorian/Pinder. >Both Krantor and Egrorian were ruthless egomaniacs, unambiguously >presented as villains. <snip> I always thought all this was in the tradition of Great British camp. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:39:02 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Message-ID: <57238cf7.3695fc66@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: > Soolin naked? I can cope with that idea... But I digress. I think > Soolin would be more than capable of delivering a good sound kicking, > should she be deprived of her piece. I could only wish that were true...for Soolin and me. Granted, the "Don't Mess With Me" image helps. Hopefully, the intimidation factor will encourage anyone inclined to attack to choose a different, weaker victim. But the simple truth is that men have a great strength advantage. And Soolin doesn't even come close to being Mz. Terminator in the size and muscle department. If Soolin didn't manage a precise blow (that usually has to be a surprise) to cripple a male opponent, she's probably toast. What am I saying? Of course women can whup men. Any day, any time. So you males on the list behave yourselves. We are out here. ;-) Vehicle Choices: I see Dayna on a Harley. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 05:07:47 PST From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Message-Id: <199901081307.FAA23234@f274.hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >I could only wish that were true...for Soolin and me. Granted, the >"Don't Mess With Me" image helps. Hopefully, the intimidation >factor will encourage anyone inclined to attack to choose a >different, weaker victim. But the simple truth is that men have a >great strength advantage. And Soolin doesn't even come close to >being Mz. Terminator in the size and muscle department. If Soolin >didn't manage a precise blow (that usually has to be a surprise) to >cripple a male opponent, she's probably toast. I remember a guy who used to teach jujitsu. Last time I heard, he had a 5th dan -- believe me, you get into a fight with him, it'll be over before you can say, "Did you spill my pint?" Anyway, for a time he was married to another black-belt: a 5-footer, would you believe. Now I never met this person, but everyone who did claimed she was the nastiest piece of work they'd ever met. One story about her sticks in my mind. She was at a party with her husband. Some male, who had taken exception to her, tripped her over as she was walking across the room. She didn't touch him: her husband decked him instead. His explanation was (and I actually believe him when he says this) that if she'd got hold of the guy, she would have made such a mess of him that he'd have wished he'd never been born. So, by decking this chap, the husband claimed he was actually doing him a favour. Anyway, all other factors being equal, raw physical strength does win the day. But it's a very crude weapon -- certainly no match for skill, years of practice and sheer downright nastiness. All of which Soolin has in spades. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:46:23 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again Message-ID: <dd152dfd.36960c2f@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-08 05:41:21 EST, you write: << Avon: Something extremely expensive. Something not too garish, but it would have to yell, "Oi! Look at me you b*****ds -- I'm loaded!" Hm. Maybe some kind of Merc.>> How about a Cadillac Alante? << Vila: Ford Escort. Stolen.>> Either that or a Chevy Nova, also stolen. <<Gan: I can see Gan quite happily pottering around in a Ford Cortina. Never mind the fact that it'd cost a fortune to run -- as long as it gets him to the pie shop once in a while, he won't have any cause to complain.>> Either that or a Dodge Dart. << Travis: A tank. What else?>> We had an incident here in the States where some bonehead got high on crank and took a stolen tank for a joyride. It didn't look very maneuverable. I could see Travis with a tank while he was still with Space Command, but afterwards? I think he'd want something less conspicuous. <<Any other ideas?>> Dayna: Volkswagen Beetle Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:19:47 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Homophobia Message-ID: <006301be3b0f$9ffda120$311fac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A serious issue deserves a serious discussion. Kathryn Andersen: >> Well, maybe it's just my (mis)perception, > >Yep. I don't think so; if I did I would never have raised the topic in the first place. >You say, that >because there is the faint possibility that some of the villains >*might* be gay, (also due to the casting and the acting, don't forget) >that the author is homophobic. I think it's more than a 'faint possibility', I really do think it was Holmes' intention. The acting would seem to reinforce it. (As for casting, I don't recall John Savident playing the camp villain in 'Trial'). I didn't mean to say that Holmes was rabidly homophobic, only that there are intimations of homophobia in some of his scripts. It appears to be present (or from where I'm standing, it's blindingly obvious) in half of his episodes, and completely absent from anyone else's. I find that significant. Krantor/Toise and Egrorian/Pinder represent a recurring theme, one that the author consciously or otherwise feels a need to place in his work. I wouldn't like to guess at his motives, though. He might have had very good reasons. >Talk about over-reaction! If anything, I think you're over-reacting. >*Please* don't abuse the English language. I don't think I am. The negative attitude towards gays (more precisely, a certain kind of gay relationship, but the only kind that Holmes apparently felt was worth writing about) that I perceive in these two episodes might not be 'intense', but I think it's there, and it's negative enough to fall within the scope of 'homophobia'. And for what it's worth, I also happen to believe that the wrong kind of smile can be considered sexual harrasment. Penny Dreadful: >>Travis referred to Jarriere as looking like a powder puff (ie; poof). >Which highlighted Travis' childish nastiness. Maybe this indicates >homophobia on the part of the character (which wouldn't surprise me), Nor me. I would expect it of him. >but I don't think it reveals it in the writer. Quite true. On its own, it's no evidence at all. Taken into context with the other scripts, it's mildly contributory but hardly conclusive. As I said in an earlier post, Holmes' apparent negativity towards gays (some at least, though not necessarily all) is expressed indirectly and ambiguously (again, I wouldn't like to guess at motives for this). >Villains are allowed, nay encouraged, to be flamboyant. See Servalan. But Servalan's heterosexuality was never in serious doubt. >And flamboyant, to the general public, tends to equal gay. Both villainy >and homosexuality are violations of the norm, egregious flauting of >convention. So in mainstream media they tend to coincide. I don't see >this as homophobia I would. And I think you're association with flamboyance and villainy is spurious; you can have flamboyant heros (generally presumed to be straight as a Roman road) and non-flamboyant villains (likewise). Not all flamboyant villains are implied homosexuals either (eg: the Sherrif of Nottingham in Prince of Thieves). I wouldn't even like to say a significant proportion are. Krantor and Egrorian stick out to me like blinding exceptions, and not the kind that proves the rule. Flamboyance can - if allowed to - suggest effeminacy, which is another reason why Servalan doesn't count in this argument. (The hackneyed case of the Evil Lesbian - eg; Barbarella, Red Sonja - is an interesting subject in its own right, but off-topic.) Flamboyant males - whether heroes or villains - tend to get to prove their heterosexual credentials, either by rescuing or groping The Girl. Neither Krantor nor Egrorian are permitted an opportunity to do so - Egrorian's worship of Servalan is an altogether different kind of power relationship, and serves to underline his effeminacy. Una McCormack: >I always thought all this was in the tradition of Great British camp. Not really. The 'Jules and Sandy' tradition seeks to defuse the imagined threat of homosexuality by turning it into something that can be regarded with not just amusement but genuine affection (witness the popularity of John Inman's character in Are You Being Served - which _is_ in 'the tradition of Great British camp'). Not exactly PC in this day and age, but almost progressive in its time. Krantor/Egrorian work the other way - they enforce the notion of campness implying threat. Krantor is merely dangerous, Egrorian genuinely sadistic (thinking of the scene where he threatens to break Pinder's arm). Come to think of it, there's probably more outright viciousness in 'Orbit' than in the rest of the 4th Season put together. Which goes some way to suggest that Holmes may have had something to get off his chest. A pity we can't ask him, really. Has he ever said anything that might have some bearing on this subject? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:02:48 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting even longer) Message-ID: <006401be3b0f$a0df75a0$311fac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Avon >Leonard Cohen and Lou Reed might be >too obviously doomy and gloomy, however. Oh, I dunno. I can just picture him staring penetratingly at the wall while Ole Gravelthroat drones through 'Coney Island Baby'. I have to disagree with Alison, I'm afraid. Vila doesn't actively 'cock a snook' at the system, it's just this disagreeable thing that stands in his way. Delta grade resentment isn't his style at all (perhaps because he isn't really a Delta...). He'd go for something mindless, anything with a catchy tune to hum along to. Re Blake >I don't see why he has to keep his taste for Stevie Wonder a secret. He has a genuine sense of compassion for his fellow human beings. That doesn't really leave him much choice. >>Jenna: Country and Western, and doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks. >Possibly. Unless Blake felt lyrics about wives leaving and dogs dying >were conflicting with his Stevie Wonder sessions. But it gives her the chance to lure Blake into her cabin, pose beside a giant Dolly Parton hologram, and glare hintingly. > I think I'll go back even further, and suggest >early music for Cally - Hildegard of Bingen, and sumer is i-comin in, >etc. She's not that cuckoo! Actually, she's more likely to have taste than all the rest, so something like Portishead might be more up her street. > >I know you suggested Roger Whittaker for Servalan, but he might be >another one in Gan's record collection. Don't forget Perry Como, Doris >Day, etc. He might even listen to Frank Sinatra if he was in a >particularly good mood. Also the Everley Brothers (quite good actually), the Andrews Sisters, and almost certainly Kenny Rogers (endless talk about whom would drive Jenna to tears - she prefers Real Country like Maria McKee). I forgot he was a bit of a sucker for dainty young things like Avalon and Veron, so I think we can safely bet on Lulu, Helen Shapiro, Clodagh Rogers, Dana, Sandie Shaw, Little Eva and Petula Clark. Finds Brenda Lee a bit too spikey for comfort, but if he wants a good cry he can always put on Marianne Faithful's 'Ballad of Lucy Jordan' (which I can't find a copy of _anywhere_). Or Rolf Harris' 'Two Little Boys' which I can't honestly claim to have looked for. >How about Servalan as an opera buff with a passion for Wagner? Anyone else >think that fits? Wagner isn't Pop Music and doesn't count. >>Orac: Doesn't like to be distracted, so anything that goes in one ear >>and straight out the other. Pink Floyd will do nicely. >That does it. Forget Pink Floyd. I wish, I wish... >Slave's also responsible for "Wannabe" by the Spice Girls, "Lovefool" by >the Cardigans, and any other heavily played song you were sick of ages >ago. Presumably meaning every hit by the Beautiful South. Once upon a time I had nothing at all against Rotterdam, now I find myself wishing someone would go and nuke the place. > >Regards >Joanne Yer welcome Neil > >Was Doctor Who ever gothic?...Indeed one could make a strong case for >Blake's 7 being far more gothic. After all, Doctor Who can only claim >one character called Goth, whereas Blake's 7 had a whole planet called >Goth! Furthermore, several of its episodes had the same titles as songs >by Fields of the Nephilim. Fifteen-Love to Blake's 7, I'd say. >--Richard Augood, "Gothic Doctor Who", The Velvet Web site. > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:56:16 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Message-ID: <006201be3b0f$9f2c9580$311fac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Neil said: >Who the hell started all this anyway? > >And joanne answered: >You did, chuckie, you did <smile> This is what you >get for objecting to Una's taste in music. No, I didn't start it. I never suggested a Floyd track as a suitable basis for a tarrant video. So - it wasn't me, but someone else. Not me. All I did was invade Poland... Well, if you're going to come clean, Una, I suppose I can too, and admit that as the one devoted Floyd-basher on this thread I do actually quite like them, even post-Syd. But then I also like Dusty Springfield and Tubeway Army, amongst many others. You can keep the Spiccies. Anyway, they're not the same since Geri walked out and oh ghod what a giveaway... Neil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:39:43 -0000 From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Homophobia Message-Id: <E0zye3N-0003H3-00@post.mail.demon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dunno Neil, I see where your thoughts are leading but I always just thought Holmes was gay, or otherwise for some reason interested in the idea of homosexuality, so he put gay characters and dilemmas into his scripts. It is the mark of a person or society at ease that they can put 'minority' characters into roles which are critical and less than perfect. You can see this with roles for black people in Hollywood films. First they were excluded and put into very marginal roles (see 'Gone with the Wind') then liberal directors started bringing in black characters, but tended to make them almost impossibly good to over-compensate (I'm thinking about 'Guess who's coming to dinner' and the whole Sidney Poitier thing). It's only now, and slowly that we can have rounded black characters, with good and bad traits, who can stand if for 'everyman' (cf 'Enemy of the State') Hopefully the same thing is happening to disabled characters (first marginal, then 'special', then rounded human beings) and to gay characters and so on. I'm not suggesting that the UK in the late '70s was at ease with gay characters. What I'm saying is that perhaps Holmes was personally at ease, so he sneakily used the SF context to get away with inserting gay sub-characters who were mixed up and bad and vain and all the rest of it, just like the heterosexual characters. Possible? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:15:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk> To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Homophobia Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990108160515.15179A-100000@bsauasc> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here are a few random counterarguments to the charge that Robert Holmes was homophobic. Firstly, it's really only based on one data point, and a shaky one at that. Egrorian isn't gay, he's a dirty old sleaze who'll shag anything above room temperature. Any gay element to Tynus is questionable, and certainly in the performance rather than the script. This leaves only the Krantor/Toise couple. The whole of "Gambit" oozes a shabby, sordid campness, and they fit right into that. Also, we're looking at a small number of scripts here. Holmes wrote loads of Dr Who stories, and was script editor for even more. In all those stories that I've seen I can't think of a single example of negativity towards homosexuals. You'd think, if he had such a bee in his bonnet, it would have expressed itself in DW as well. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:05:20 -0800 From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Liberator Message-ID: <36940850.7434@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dangermouse wrote: re: > > - Are there any Liberator sister ships? > There was [one] until Orac caused its missiles to explode before launch in > Redemption Several dozen sister ships still exist and fly about in various fanfic stories. Zen Lives! Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:02:38 -0600 From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again Message-Id: <199901081956.NAA09418@pemberton.magnolia.net> Rob said: >Vila: Ford Escort. Stolen. ROFL! I liked Carol's idea for Dayna--a Harley. But I tend to think she'd also want a Humvee for those times she needs to carry serious ammo that just won't quite fit into her jumpsuit. Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:51:32 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> cc: Space City <Space-city@world.std.com> Subject: [B7L] David Walsh Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0108195132-518Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII We are delighted to say that the incomparable David Walsh whom many of you will remember from Who's 7 and Deliverance will be attending Redemption. David does the most wonderful Servalan routine that you've ever seen. Style, flair and frocks to die for. (We'll be adding some photos to the convention web page in the near future) Will Servalan succeed in her new bid to become Ruler of the Universe? Will Emperor Cartagia or the Sandman succeed in defeating her? Are the rumours of Bill Gates standing as a candidate pure slander? Will we be running a Travis and Servalan panel? Come along and see... Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:08:43 -0800 From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Homophobia Message-ID: <369657BB.71BA@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > <snip> It's only now, > and slowly that we can have rounded black characters, with good and bad > traits, ... An insightful observation. Quadraplegic Christopher Reeve is leading the way toward including disabled characters in film. One role has him "spying" on someone and when found out, the spyee calls him some nasty - but true - names. His behavior was not noble, altho he was on the "good" side. And the spyee is ready to kill him by ripping out his breathing tube. A realistic treatment all around. > I'm not suggesting that the UK in the late '70s was at ease with gay > characters. This reminds me of the US in te late '70s: Charlie's Angles first put women into lead action roles. Naturally, the gals were perfect. No doubts, no failures, no catty in-fighting, no monthly PMS bitchiness. Just as when blacks (even following the Sidney Poitie perfection period) were cast (Mod Squad, A-Team) they had no faults, either. But this is condeming a character to one-dimensionality. Sadly, it still happens. But then writing a type is easier than creating a whole person, and WASP male characters are often cast thusly, too. > What I'm saying is that perhaps Holmes was personally at ease, > so he sneakily used the SF context to get away with inserting gay > sub-characters who were mixed up and bad and vain and all the rest of it, > just like the heterosexual characters. Possible? I agree! For instance, Zukan was just as nasty and exotic as Krantor. He could have been gay as well with no dilution of character. We are so bemused to find "invisible" personality types presented that we tend to give them undue notice. Servalan flirting with Jerriere is on a par with Krantor flirting with Toise. But because we are accustomed to seeing women flirt with men, we take little notice of it. And, going back to first season, Servalan's power relationship with Ray is little different than Egrorian's hold over Pinder. Ok, Curvy Servy (ha! I liked that!) wouldn't personally break Ray's arm - she'd call Travis in to (readily) do it for her. Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:16:55 -0800 From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again (getting longer) Message-ID: <369659A7.181C@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Clother wrote: > Anyway, all other factors being equal, raw physical strength does win > the day. But it's a very crude weapon -- certainly no match for skill, > years of practice and sheer downright nastiness. All of which Soolin > has in spades. I agree. In a self defense class the instructor showed a Remo Williams movie: and pointed out all the instances where Remo used items at hand to fight attackers. i.e. quick wit in knowing what to grab and what to do with it. Also, movie hero / martial artist Jackie Chan shows how incredibly quick a small person can be, in a way that a larger attacker simply cannot manage, due to the size and weight of limbs that must be moved. For instance, in a true fight between Vila and Gan, my money would be on Vila. It's true that Soolin never boasts about any special training, but then I can see her having lots of secret skills that she would save for a surprise only when needed. Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:10:31 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: [B7L] Re: Free time again Message-ID: <199901081810_MC2-65FC-ADA0@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How many times do I have to say AVON DOES NOT LISTEN TO MUSIC. Julius Caesar said so (Act 1, Scene 2). He mentioned that A didn't go to the theatre either. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:29:05 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Homophobia Message-ID: <000201be3b60$4771eba0$f91aac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: >I dunno Neil, I see where your thoughts are leading but I always just >thought Holmes was gay, or otherwise for some reason interested in the idea >of homosexuality, so he put gay characters and dilemmas into his scripts. In that respect his scripts were a refreshing change. Holmes could always be relied on for interesting characters, and heaps of background. (When compiling the Sevencyclopaedia I soon learned to dread the prospect of ploughing through one of his. Lots of notepaper to hand and finger constantly on the pause button.) I certainly don't have a downer on Holmes, not even this contentious slant I've dredged up. I find it interesting rather than offensive. Unlike elements in Ben Steed's efforts, which leave a definite sour taste in the mouth. And as for Tanith Lee and her Fascism... > >It is the mark of a person or society at ease that they can put 'minority' >characters into roles which are critical and less than perfect. > I'd agree up to a point, but it doesn't necessarily help if the result reinforces rather than challenges popular prejudices. For instance, I liked the way one of the baddies in Outland turned out to be the black cop; it came as a genuine surprise (well, it did to me. Can't speak for anyone else). On the other hand, the murderous gay couple in 'Diamonds are Forever' hardly did anyone any favours. >I'm not suggesting that the UK in the late '70s was at ease with gay >characters. What I'm saying is that perhaps Holmes was personally at ease, >so he sneakily used the SF context to get away with inserting gay >sub-characters who were mixed up and bad and vain and all the rest of it, >just like the heterosexual characters. Possible? Not impossible, but why the relentlessly negative portrayal? Egrorian doesn't have a single redeeming feature. At least Krantor evokes a certain admiration for his ruthless cunning, but he still gets his comeuppance at the end. With a verbal rebuke from Toise to stick the boot in. (That's another parallel; Toise lays Krantor low, just as Pinder does Egrorian, though just a little bit more forcefully in the latter case.) Ian Coleman: >Egrorian isn't gay, he's a dirty old sleaze who'll shag anything >above room temperature. Well, that really lets him off the hook, doesn't it... 'Anything' would include Pinder. Ten years of Pinder (his 'golden-haired stripling' or somesuch) and nothing else once the biodome ran out of hamsters. >Any gay element to Tynus is questionable So questionable I never even considered him. >This leaves only the Krantor/Toise couple. The whole of "Gambit" oozes a shabby, >sordid campness, and they fit right into that. Or, Krantor/Toise were a dry run for the fully fledged spleen-venting in Orbit. I'm not saying that _is_ the case, it's just a possibility. >Also, we're looking at a small number of scripts here. Holmes wrote loads >of Dr Who stories, and was script editor for even more. In all those >stories that I've seen I can't think of a single example of negativity >towards homosexuals. You'd think, if he had such a bee in his bonnet, it >would have expressed itself in DW as well. Pas devant les enfants? DW was for kids, B7 for adults. Ish. I recall thinking there were some iffy elements in at least one DW script by Holmes. Talons of Weng-Chiang? I'm really not sufficiently Who-wise. Maybe he was just shit-stirring and it's taken until now for the smell to get noticed. Who nose? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:54:41 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <19990109005441.3391.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Neil murmured offhandedly: >And as for Tanith Lee and her Fascism... Ye-e-s? *Do* go on... -- Penny "Tanith Nostra" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 03:46:24 PST From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila Message-ID: <19990109114624.15031.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Of course, I really mean all that, and I'm not just sticking a feline >predator into the dovecote to see how many feathers fly out. I >mean, as if I would... The only trouble is, Neil, you're too persuasive. Of course, Vila's darker, more dangerous side did surface at times other than in "The Way Back". There's "Breakdown", for instance. I won't look up the reference, but didn't he try to terrorise Kayn by suggesting he'd happily blow the top of his head off without a shadow of remorse? The entire series seemed to change direction after "The Way Back", now you come to mention it. It was a gradual process in some ways, but for those of us who count the first episode as their favouite (e.g. me), there is always the suspicion that the series had the potential to be very different, possibly even better, than it actually turned out to be. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #6 ************************************