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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 78
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness)
[B7L] Re: Mary Sues (long)
Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs
[B7L] Just one question...
[B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
RE: [B7L]Gareth on TV
Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues (long)
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Re: [B7L] Just one question...
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Myers-Briggs
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
[B7L] Garbage at the end of my emails
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
[B7L] Re: Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Re: [B7L] Mary Sues (long)
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Maniacal Surrender (was: Myers-Briggs)
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:10:50 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness)
Message-ID: <00cf01be5f8b$d71ac020$e014ac3e@default>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Russ wrote:
>>You're being a tad paranoid. If I'm going to insult you, I'll do it after
>>Redemption, not before.
>>
>Can't make it this year I'm afraid - no spare cash.
You won't be there? That's a shame. Your presence will be sadly missed.
Not by me, of course, but I'm sure someone will miss you.
On complicated plots:
>That's the same problem behind my trouble with the next instalment
>of the DeLancey/Alecta saga. I've got some killer scenes worked out,
>but I just can't get any plausible motivation for the necessary actions
>taken by three different factions - especially the master villain. It all
>comes out to be a bit too Asimov's Foundation for my liking.
Killer scenes -- yeah, I tend to build a plot around them, but they can be a
right swine to link together. Sometimes one or other of them has to get the
chop. I often start off with a heavy action scene, which as often as not
disappears somewhere in the writing. I've also tried just letting a story
evolve from a preliminary situation, but they always peter out into nothing
substantial. Even conversations - perhaps especially conversations - need
to be very deeply plotted.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:59:43 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues (long)
Message-ID: <00ce01be5f8b$d54def60$e014ac3e@default>
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Carol Mc wrote:
>Ahhh... Now I understand. Neil just doesn't get it.
No, _you_ don't understand. You're the one who hasn't 'got it'.
>He hasn't understood
>that fanfiction is a revolutionary form of literature that allows writers
to
>write what they want to write and read.
Writers have always been able to do this, so fanfiction is hardly
revolutionary. There have been, and still are in many places, legal
constraints on what may or may not be _published_, but these very restraints
are very often what invigorates the quality of what gets written. It is the
_freedom_ to write whatever you want, without comeback, that threatens the
quality of fanfic, just as it threatens the quality of art as a whole. Art
needs critics.
Anyway, the supposed freedom offered by fanfic is an illusion, since it is a
literature that is by its very nature constrained within the premises of its
subject, the original text, yet devotes considerable effort to breaking free
of those very restraints. Stories that translate the main characters into
other historical contexts are the most blatant, but adult/slash serves the
same purpose, as even does hurt/comfort. My own fiction strives to go
beyond the external constraints on production, amongst other things. It is
when fanfiction fails to break free of the original text in some way that it
becomes trapped in the matrix of its own subject, and consequently suffers
qualitatively.
>Original characters, magnificent
>vistas, political environments, rich cultures have long existed in the
world
>of pro-literature. But that obviously wasn't entirely satisfactory to some
>writers/readers and so fanfic was born.
Putting it like that makes fanfic sound like the literary equivalent of
sniffing glue. Is that something to be proud of?
>Primarily developed by women writing what women want to read.
I think the feminist press has managed that more than adequately, with the
conscious politicisation implied by such a development. Most fanfic is
blind to its own political dimension. Besides, fanfiction has not openly
declared itself as exclusively women-only territory, in which case it either
lacks the courage of its convictions (which I doubt, since its proponents
sound neither unconvinced nor cowardly), or the dominance of women in the
field originates somewhere other than in deliberate female appropriation of
the opportunities fanfic offers.
>> They seem to
>> think that the series characters are the only ones of any significance,
>that
>> where these characters are, and when, is of minimal importance, or no
>> importance at all.
>
>And there's something wrong with that?
Yes, I think there is - see below.
>If that's the primary interest of the
>writer/reader--and judging by the proliferation of such fanfiction, it does
>seem to meet the needs of the many--why can't it exist as a valid,
acceptable
>form of storytelling? Fanzines can run four times the cost of a pro book
with
>the same word count. There's a reason people are willing to pay that much
>more, and it isn't because they want original characters, etc., etc.
So what _do_ they want? Or to put it another way - why is it that fanfic
nearly always develops around SF/Fantasy shows rather than soap operas or
other real world (contemporary or historical) dramas? I think it's because
such shows allow the socio-political context of the narrative to be
marginalised or ignored because of its underdevelopment within the original
text (this being an interesting subject in its own right). The show then
comes to be perceived as an embodiment of absolute ('eternal') values,
especially regarding gender and the social hierarchy. Since we are
currently living in an age where such values are subject to constant
erosion, with consequent psycho-social destabilisation, anything that
purports to offer an absolute is liable to be valued. Fandom-promoting
shows assume the status of myth in a world where myth is becoming
increasingly redundant. And since I'm an advocate of change and
restructuralisation, who regards myth as the codified endorsement of the
ideological status quo, _that's_ what scares the living shit out of me.
Talking of which...
>There's an easy solution to that. Return to the safe, cheaper world of
>professional books. And leave the revolution to us.
So who's telling who what to do? I never did. And stop using imperatives.
>What scares the living shit out of me is that your opinion will influence
even
>one fledgling fanfiction writer into believing that what he/she might want
to
>write is inferior or wrong.
I would call that flattery if that was ever my intention. It isn't. To any
fledgeling reading this - ignore everything I say and do as thou wilt.
>Fanfiction should have the scope that allows
>people who want grandiose vistas to write them. And if fans want two
>characters holding a conversation in a room where the furniture isn't even
>described, that's also their prerogative. Or Mary Sues. Or wallows.
If you've misunderstood me here then it's hardly your fault since in
retrospect I don't think I did make myself clear enough. I agree that there
are plenty of stories that have no need to venture beyond the series
characters or the flight deck of the Liberator, and there is no reason why
they should attempt to if the need isn't there. What I was railing on about
was those stories where the plot demands that the crew _do_ interact with
the universe beyond their own social microcosm, and the writer fails to meet
the challenges that this demands.
Take a mundane fiction analogy: Somewhere in a City a Detective hunts down a
Murderer in order to bring a Victim's killer to justice. Along the way s/he
encounters a variety of social archetypes (the Wealthy Businessman, the
Junkie, the Prostitute, the Window Cleaner, whoever). No names, no places,
no dates. Given sufficient literary skill, such a story could be made to
work - provided it is acknowledged that _everything_ in the story is an
archetype with symbolic or allegorical value.
Now, some (by no means all) B7 fanfic depicts original characters as if they
were archetypes (common ones being the Mad Scientist, the Fanatical Officer,
the Thuggish Trooper, and the Beautiful Ex-/Potential Girlfriend) but ends
up turning them into stereotypes. B7 does not deal in archetypes, it deals
in characters, with names and background and stuff. The archetypal approach
assumes an Anywhere and Anywhen, whereas B7 is set firmly Somewhere and
Somewhen, though exactly where and when is a matter for the writer to
decide. It is the where and when that makes the character who s/he is.
'The first rule of punk - do it yourself.
The second rule - do it properly.'
John Lydon
Neil
>What fanfiction shouldn't be is a return to the dark ages, where writers
feel
>compelled to meet anyone else's definition of what their stories should be.
>
>Carol Mc
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:21:59 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
Message-ID: <00d701be5f8c$2e948ca0$e014ac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ian ... sorry, _Iain_ Coalman wrote:
>If there's enough interest, I propose the following. The group meets
>somewhere with a flipchart and a bunch of pens. I'll kick off the
>discussion, maybe starting with some of the things we've been discussing
>on the list recently. Then I'll encourage the rest of the group to chime
>in with their own theories or other science issues in the series. I'll
>provide whatever input I can (based on two astrophysics degrees and
>whatever textbooks I can manage to bring along), and everyone else will
>bring their own knowledge, perspectives and questions. We'll do that for a
>while, then go to the bar.
>(This format will work best if at least one or two reasonably intelligent
>and argumentative people show up. You know who you are.)
Well I'm certainly game as the whole idea sounds great. So you've got at
least one of the two. Mind you, you've still got to find the reasonably
intelligent one.
Suppose I'd better start thinking up some Really Hard Questions,
heh-heh-heh...
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:03:16 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs
Message-Id: <199902240035.SAA06932@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Penny Dreadful wrote:
>It has been pointed out to me that considering INTPs are alleged to be such
>a rarity the Internet certainly seems to be acrawl with them.
INTs (INTP and INTJ) are grossly overrepresented online in comparison to
their numbers in society at large. Not too surprising, since computer geeks
and related techies tend to be INTP or INTJ more than any other type, and
they were a large proportion of those populating the Internet in the first
place, and of those to whom online communication is especially attractive.
The other types are starting to filter in, but the number of INTs online
will probably stay anomalously large.
>So I have to wonder if the test is at least in part measuring whether or
>not you're the kind of person who would voluntarily take such a test...
The MB test (the real thing, not the quick'n'dirty estimators available on
the Keirsey site) is widely used in the business world, where taking it is
generally not all that voluntary (it gets imposed on employees in quite a
few companies.) When samples are taken across a broad spectrum of people,
INTs form a very small proportion of the whole -- I think it was 2% or less.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:41:40 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Just one question...
Message-ID: <19990224004140.22143.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
...how do these numbers you get work?
For example, I've just taken both forms of the sorter at Keirsey's site
again. These are the results:
INFP INFP
I 10/10 I+10 N+14 F+12 P+6
P 7/10
NT=34 NF=38 SJ=33 SP=36
^^^^^
That, if this has been received before, should've been 28
I think if I and others knew what was going on there, there might be
more comprehension of whether or not Avon or any other character was
strongly this or that or the other. Let alone ourselves. Lisa W, are you
willing? I'm only picking on you because you seem to be someone who
knows a hell of a lot about it.
Short of reading the book, of course, which I can't do right now.
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:44:50 -0800
From: Tramila <cdmunoz@earthlink.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990223164450.0087ba10@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>> I was just talking about it with my husband the other day-- he was of
>> the opiinion Vila might not really be an E. I think he's off base, but
>> does anyone else see Vila as a possible I?
Not I. <giggle>
Kathryn wrote:
>No way. Vila likes people too much. His babble doesn't strike me as
compensatory
<snip>
Yes. We "E's" are definitely people persons.
And speaking of "I's" ..... I find it fascinating that a bunch of I's are
enthusiastically talking, opening up, and conversing. Are you sure that
you all are I's? It is great to see all of you being so enthusiastically
extrovert in your opinions.
teehee. <looks both ways and runs like heck>
Sorry all, I just HAD to say it. :)
Tramila
ESFJ
There is a reason why I like Vila. :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:24:27 -0000
From: Anne Lane <aplane@tesco.net>
To: "'B7'" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L]Gareth on TV
Message-ID: <01BE5F94.72D65440.aplane@tesco.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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On Tuesday, February 23, 1999 10:27 PM, Julie Horner wrote:
> I have just seen Gareth Thomas in the new advert for
> Warburton's bread. It's a kind of sweet father and son thing
> but unfortunately they don't use his voice for the voice over.
> I guess he doesn't sound Lancastrian enough.
I'm sure Gareth could do *any* accent well - maybe he doesn't sound *grainy*
enough! :-)
Anne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:06:33 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues (long)
Message-ID: <5d944690.36d35099@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Neil wrote:
> No, _you_ don't understand. You're the one who hasn't 'got it'.
Sorry, but I don't think so. I've read your response and the only thing I get
is a sense of someone who does not understand the fanfic genre.
Let me ask you one question, how many fanzines have you bought? Not how many
you own because you received them as tribs. But how many have you bought?
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:06:35 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <Version.32.19990223190010.01190830@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>My idea of social bliss is a small handful of people who I actually like
>meeting about once a week, a husband who tends to let me do things my own
>way, a cat, and the Internet.
You're a regular social butterfly from where I'm sitting, *way* out at the
'I' end of the scale. However, even I do socialize online -- I deal with
people much better when I can shrink them down to an icon with the push of
a button. And I have cats and a horse, whose company I enjoy. I don't seek
out the company of people, though.
(My Keirsey test results have always come out 100% I, 65-75% N, 90% T,
50-60%J.)
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:25:26 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <Version.32.19990223191136.0119a240@dallas.net>
Message-Id: <Version.32.19990223191136.0119a240@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(Jonathan, could you please set your email program to post in plain text
only? Much better for mailing lists, where you're dealing with a wide
variety of receiving software.)
Jonathan wrote:
>- this is Avon ?
The answer to that is, we don't know. Avon spent the whole darned series in
a situation that violated his principles and generally frayed his nerves. I
suspect that, given surroundings more congenial to his nature, Avon would be
a fairly easy-going little computer geek, in an INT sort of way -- namely,
quite content to leave everyone else alone so long as they left him alone.
But again, you don't do typing by reading the very brief and incomplete
sketches at the typelogic site (or even the chapter-long ones in Keirsey &
Bates) and picking the one that grabs you. The question is, does Avon
exhibit more P characteristics or J ones, and which are more natural to him?
(No one seems to dispute his being an NT temperament -- it's practically
branded on his forehead, after all -- or an Introvert.) And while I readily
admit it's a close contest, I see the P behavior as more natural to him and
the J characteristics emerging primarily when forced by circumstances or
when he was trying to put up a facade. Much as I might like to claim Avon
for my own type, I have to place him a little on the other side of the line.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:07:33 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <19990224020735.26538.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>Neil wrote:
>> No, _you_ don't understand. You're the one who hasn't 'got it'.
>Sorry, but I don't think so. I've read your response and the only
thing >I get is a sense of someone who does not understand the fanfic
>genre.
Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, dear. Neil, are you crossing bridges
again? If not, I think it can be safely said that you and Carol do not
have the same tastes in writing. Neil, I'm with you most of the time.
The other 20% of the time I'm with you, Carol. I don't think it is that
Neil doesn't understand fanfic, just that he prefers a panoramic shot to
the closeup. Nothing is wrong with either, at least so far as I'm
concerned, although the way Neil put it, unintentionally I hope,
suggested that the former was superior to the latter. Any of the above
approaching reality?
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:04:37 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Message-ID: <014201be5f9b$b63be220$e014ac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Joanne wrote:
>Neil wrote:
>>I wrote one story (Hunter, in Star Two) which had no less than _four_
>>'original, plot-significant (female) characters' and at least as many
>>original plot-significant male ones. I don't think anyone mistook that
>>for a Mary-Sue.
>
>I'm having a hard time remembering anything vaguely Mary-Sueish about
>those characters <grin> Anyway, how often, can someone tell me, are
>Mary-Sues substance abusers? But I did wonder how many times you'd seen
>"Alien", although strange and dangerous entity taking over a spaceship
>must've been extremely familiar territory to many SF fans by the time
>that film was made.
Regarding Alien and SF action movies in general, my story was intended as
part pastiche, part homage, and part critique. A few bits were perhaps too
closely borrowed from the movie, especially the bit where Dayna goes
monster-hunting. But I wanted it to be obvious in order to debunk the whole
monster-hunting mystique - Dayna's self-destructive guilt-ridden motives as
a flipside of the more conventional heroic ones depicted in Ripley. The
story as a whole was an attempt to see if B7 could be translated into the
action movie format without compromising the essential strengths of the
series. Talk of a possible B7 film prompted me thinking along such lines,
and any B7 film made today would inevitably be an SFX-laden extravaganza
with lots and lots of action. I was wondering if it could be that and yet
remain B7. I think it could, though others would doubtless disagree.
>I may be entirely misunderstanding you, Neil, but you aren't attempting
>to suggest that there's something wrong with stories that stick purely
>to the main characters? Or merely that you see far too many stories that
>do this and long for a bit more variety? It would be interesting to hear
>what is actually the case.
Hopefully my reply to Carol should qualify this. I see nothing at all wrong
with stories that stick purely to the main characters if that is all that is
demanded of the story. Nor is it a question of quantity - quality is more
important, and I can still appreciate that, even if I don't personally like
the story itself. I would rather read a well written story that doesn't
meet my criteria of thematic preference than a badly written story that
does. Guess I'm just funny that way.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:23:18 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Just one question...
Message-Id: <199902240219.UAA21117@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Joanne MacQueen wrote:
>...how do these numbers you get work?
The numbers are just the points you racked up on the test in each category,
which won't do you much good where he doesn't indicate how many were
possible. You can work it out if you take the time, but it's the graph he
displays under them that really tells you how you rank in each scale, since
there he has it reduced to a percentage. By way of being confusing, he's
taken to using words on the graphs rather than the traditional initials to
indicate each quality:
Attentive = I, Expressive = E
Introspective = N, Observant = S
Tender = F, Tough = T
Probing = P, Scheduled = J
and the temperaments:
Rational = NT, Idealist = NF, Artisan = SP, Guardian = SJ
I did work out at one point exactly how his point scoring worked, but it was
just out of curiosity to see how he came up with the graphical results.
Unless you're really nitpicky, it's easiest just to look at the percentages
shown on the graphs.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:22:21 +1100 (EST)
From: Lisa Darby <Lisa.Darby@anu.edu.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <199902240222.NAA06869@anugpo.anu.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:49 PM 23/02/99 +0000, Una wrote:
>
>So am I the *only* INFJ around here? Anyone else 'The Counsellor'? How
>depressing - I get to be naff 3rd season Cally rather than kick-ass
>1st season Cally.
>
>
Well according to the online tests I'm one as well. And that's according to
the test I took about a year ago when this topic came up and again when I
took it yesterday. Not that I understand it all, particularly as the
discussion seems to indicate that Js are neat and organised planner types
and I don't think that's me at all, even though I AM a LIBRARIAN!
I rather like the idea of being like one of the characters even if it is the
naff version.
Lisa
Lisa Darby
Librarian
North Australia Research Unit
PO Box 41321
Casuarina NT 0811
Australia
lisa.darby@anu.edu.au
Ph : +61 8 89220031
Fax : +61 8 89220055
http://online.anu.edu.au/naru/welcome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:15:00 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D36EB4.14C8@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>
> Here's another question which puzzles me - is Cally INFJ or INFP?
> She's definitely INF, but again we have this J/P thing.
>
Description in "Please understand me" makes her sound like a J.
Counseller, not Healer. But when it comes to planning, she's not much of
a planner. On the other hand, when someone else comes up with a plan,
she seems to take a "That's settled, then" approach, showing more
comfort _after_ a descision than before. Another borderline case?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:37:19 +1000
From: Taina Nieminen <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "'B7'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Myers-Briggs
Message-ID: <01BE5FF2.6E7AD2A0@TENZIL>
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I thought I'd sent along my test results, but they probably
popped along privately to whoever's email I replied to
(sorry about that).
Anyway, test 1 tells me that I am an INTJ and test 2 that
I am an ISTJ. (I liked the first test at the Keirsey site better
because it had questions with more than a yes/no answer.)
I did one a year and a half ago which told me I was ISTJ, but
borderline on the S/N (40% towards S) whereas the others
were about 15% away from the extreme end of the scale.
Anyway, I read the SN dimension descriptions and discovered
that I am am both S and N.
I am definitely I and definitely T. So I read the JP dimension
and discovered that I am both J and P.
I am an INTJ except I don't do contingency planning.
I am an ISTJ except I'm not traditional and old-fashioned.
I am not an INTP.
I am not an ISTP.
But in the JP dimension descripton, I am both J and P.
So I conclude the Keirsey sorter test is not a very good personality
test (I think the full Myers-Briggs has hundreds of questions??), or
that the human race doesn't fall into 16 categories, or that it simply
doesn't deal with people like myself who have personality disorders.
So I officially declare myself an IT,
which leads nicely back to the gender of Orac and Zen discussion.
Taina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:21:42 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <36D37046.7F6B@jps.net>
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>
> Seriously, the definition of 'Sex Appeal' as a GURPS skill is:
>
> "The ability to impress the opposite sex. It can only be studied in your
> 'free time' - say a max of 3 hours per day - unless you are a member of
> a harem or the equivalent. The sex appeal ability has as much to do
> with your attitude as it does with looks. If you are not willing to
> 'vamp' someone to get what you want, you won't have this talent or
> _want_ it."
>
> The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are
> Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as
> pretending to seduce women to get what he wants.
Russ, where have you been, when he kissed Cally/alien in 'Sarcophogus'?
And what of his little charm dances with Servalan? I don't think he
finds her the least bit appealling. She's vulgar, by the standards I
think he has. But _she_ apparently finds _him_ attractive. So he uses
that, to draw her out, get her to talk, learn your enemy to defeat your
enemy. He wouldn't go all the way, I don't think, but the use of feigned
attraction is something he definitely understand. In fact, it's another
way of 'lying without lying'.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:59:02 +1000
From: Taina Nieminen <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "'B7'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, "'SC'" <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Garbage at the end of my emails
Message-ID: <01BE5FF5.74C44A80@TENZIL>
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If you've been getting garbage at the end of my emails,
the problem is now fixed (or at least has a temporary
fix that will do for the time being).
Thank you to everybody who brought it to my attention,
and thank you especially to Robert who has patiently
replied to endless test messages.
Taina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:47:45 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <36D37662.478F@jps.net>
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VJC wrote:
>
> > > The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are
> > > Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as
> > > pretending to seduce women to get what he wants.
>
> You're right. Switching strands, as an intuative Avon would have no
> idea at all about his physical attractiveness. all that was real to
> him was his intelligence.
Actually, sex appeal is easy for Rationals to understand. People don't
hide there feelings on that account, so if they want you, you have sex
appeal. Several women on here who fit the INTwhatever type, have stated
they are very aware of how to impress with their clothing, etc. However,
the sex appeal is something that one plays down except when one has
_reason_ to use it. It's also easy to use, as one's own self really
doesn't care about sex as much as the person one is trying to influence.
Love, on the other hand, is confusing and often embarrassing.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:14:47 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <199902232215_MC2-6B9C-2BAB@compuserve.com>
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Mistral wrote:
>but you left out the ability to trace a line through
>the pattern of infinity-- without giving any actual
>thought to the consequences of same.
But I keep telling you all, Orac knows perfectly well what the consequences
will be: he says Blake's trail ENDS on Gauda Prime. They've just forgotten
to ask all the relevant questions, as they so often do.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:57:08 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D37894.78F6@jps.net>
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>
> >So am I the *only* INFJ around here? Anyone else 'The Counsellor'?
> >How depressing - I get to be naff 3rd season Cally rather than
> >kick-ass 1st season Cally.
I took the test in another form and tested INFJ. Kathryn Anderson also
has F traits. So you have people who are Cally, when they aren't Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 03:25:39 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <017301be5fa5$cd45d160$e014ac3e@default>
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Carol wrote:
>Let me ask you one question, how many fanzines have you bought? Not how
>many you own because you received them as tribs. But how many have you
>bought?
All the available Horizon digest zines, about 20 or so, bar the two I got as
tribs. Most of the D-and-U's. 3 Gambits, a couple of other large anthology
zines. 3 novels (Nova, Machiavelli Factor and The Epic).
Deadlier Than The Male, and Judith's Star One series, I would definitely
have bought if I hadn't got them as tribs.
So the answer to your question is no, not all that many. As I reckon you
expected. But then I never claimed to be a fanfic junkie. Although there's
some cracking good stuff in my pitiful little collection (and I don't mean
my own scribblings), there's enough that isn't so good to put me off buying
every zine I can get my hands on. ('Good' of course being open to all
manner of interpretations.)
Joanne wrote:
>Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, dear. Neil, are you crossing bridges
>again?
Not when blowing them up is far more interesting. And when I see oil being
poured on troubled waters, I get this irresistible urge to set a match to
it:)
>If not, I think it can be safely said that you and Carol do not
>have the same tastes in writing. Neil, I'm with you most of the time.
>The other 20% of the time I'm with you, Carol. I don't think it is that
>Neil doesn't understand fanfic, just that he prefers a panoramic shot to
>the closeup.
You're dead right there. I don't consider fanfic in isolation, I try to
relate it to other writing (SF or otherwise) and the world in general. The
dynamics of its production are often far more interesting than the end
product.
My tastes in fanfic are probably echoed by my preferences in profic reading,
and what little of that there is (no time, no time) consists mainly of crime
(Raymond Chandler and Patricia Cornwell) or thrillers (eg Frederick
Forsyth). My favourite SF author has to be William Gibson, who puts out the
kind of thrillers that might be written in a hundred years time. By and
large I prefer non-fiction. Especially theoretical litcrit.
>Nothing is wrong with either, at least so far as I'm
>concerned, although the way Neil put it, unintentionally I hope,
>suggested that the former was superior to the latter. Any of the above
>approaching reality?
An article I started drafting for AltaZine was an attempt to compare the
different ways male and female authors approach writing fan fiction. To
correlate with what Joanne noted above, there does seem to be a tendency
with male writers to cast the net wider, to try and give equal time to all
the characters. Female writers are more likely to go for a close-up on one
particular subject, and the result can be either a stunning full-face
portrait or a rather blurry peek up someone's nostrils. (Generalising
heavily, obviously - there aren't really enough male writers to derive
trends from, and the sheer number of female writers means that almost every
angle of approach is taken by them at some time or another.)
As to which (if either) is 'better' - the panoramic group shot is probably
more likely to come out satisfactorily, since it can balance its gains and
losses. The close-up is more hit-or-miss, all-or-nothing. It has to get
everything in focus in order to work. Not better or worse, but perhaps more
prone to failure.
Anyway, I've given Carol my theory of fanfic, so maybe she could offer me
hers. (If she's got one <troll troll troll...>)
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:55:00 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mary Sues (long)
Message-Id: <199902240332.VAA01482@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Neil Faulkner wrote:
>Or to put it another way - why is it that fanfic nearly always develops
>around SF/Fantasy shows rather than soap operas or other real world
>(contemporary or historical) dramas?
There's a lot of fanfic based on SF, certainly, but "nearly always" is a
gross overstatement. There are many fandoms generating fanfic these days,
and SF & fantasy shows are a minority in number -- though, largely because
of the massive Trek contribution, probably still a majority in sheer
wordcount.
Of the conservative smattering of seven fandoms I read, the settings
include only two SF. The others are action adventure, spy adventure,
western, or various combinations of the above. And there are many, many
more fandoms out there, from various genres.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:17:21 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D37D51.430D@jps.net>
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Pherber@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/22/99 10:18:15 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
> << FWIW, Avona, I've been wondering for your last few posts if you weren't
> another P trying
> to pass as a J. The planning can be a learned compensatory behaviour; I'm a
> nearly
> compulsive listmaker (although I almost never cross everything off before
> making a new
> list). >>
>
> Amen! I've discovered over time that planning can be as obsessive a task any
> anything else. In my case, what makes me a P instead of a J is that, while I
> plan stuff to death, the actual execution of the plan is liable to be
> questionable at best. My psyche just can't seem to grasp deadlines and
> timetables -- my sense of time is very closely related to how much fun I'm
> having.
>
> Nina
Ah! But about the only time I've ever missed deadline on a paper was
when all my markers fell out of my book and I had to redo all the
research-- and I missed the deadline only by hours. I pace if anyone is
more than half an hour late for anything. I go frantic at work if I
can't meet my own self-appointed timetable for getting my days work
done.
It's only when I really have to step off into the great unknown, like
becoming self-employed, that I second guess myself to death.
I'm also the first person to choose food from a menu, and the one who
usually has to make the decisions about where to go and what to do when
everyone is so busy deferring to everyone else, no one will express an
opinion.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:22:18 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Maniacal Surrender (was: Myers-Briggs)
Message-ID: <36D37E7A.6D6E@jps.net>
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Penny Dreadful wrote:
>
> Jacqueline said:
>
> >Actually, last night I was thinking that the mutoids might be ISTJ's. But
> >now that it's become known that I'm a dangerous megalomaniac...
>
> No -- Servalan may be a megalomaniac, but Travis is just a maniac. So
> you identify with mutoids? Hmm. Do you dream of electric sheep?
> ..Does Travis? (And can we work it into the Flat Robin somehow?)
Travis adds a verse about electric sheep to the Hedgehog Song? I know,
Other List.
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:25:04 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D37F20.643E@jps.net>
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mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
>
> <gasp> having just realized how dangerous disagreeing with Avona could be!
>
> 8-P
>
> Mistral
Don't worry, you're useful. You answer other people's points and save me
writing.
or
Don't worry. I find you intriguing. For now.
--Avona: INTJ, INTP
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:48:05 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Message-ID: <36D3847E.BEB@jps.net>
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Tramila wrote:
>
>
> Yes. We "E's" are definitely people persons.
>
> And speaking of "I's" ..... I find it fascinating that a bunch of I's are
> enthusiastically talking, opening up, and conversing. Are you sure that
> you all are I's? It is great to see all of you being so enthusiastically
> extrovert in your opinions.
#1. We find it 'safe' to talk on the Net. IRL, I would not be able to
talk like this to anyone I hadn't known for about 5 years and really
trusted. I assume this is true of most of the other I's-- a nuber of us
have made remarks about our own surprise about our openness in this
forum. Also, I think _because_ INT's are so common here, we feel more
comfortable than in real life situations where we are hopelessly
outnumbered by people who wouldn't begin to understand.
#2. We aren't giving _details_, but discussing where we fall in
classification in a system that intrigues us.
#3 Extroverts tend to be interested in others on at least a superficial
level. My mother is an extrovert, IMHO, and she said, "But I never talk
much about myself." I told her that it isn't how much talking she does,
it's how much _listening_ she does. And she is almost _always_
surrounded by people.
#4 what I found most telling was the notion that Extroverts are
energized through interacting with other people. For me, interaction
takes a toll on me in terms of stress and energy drain. I only socialize
when I deem it worth my energy.
>
> teehee. <looks both ways and runs like heck>
Damn! She always runs, just as I'm taking sight...
--Avona, who has a reason she likes Vila, too. He is amusing and so
_very_ unlike myself.
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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #78
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