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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 81
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Flat Robin 34
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] The INTJ list
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Problems
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
[Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>] Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys
Re: [B7L] The INTJ list
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:21:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Flat Robin 34
Message-Id: <199902250221.TAA24856@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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I know I posted the last one, but that was daaaays ago. Curse Myers.
Damn Briggs. Does the last line make sense to anyone who hasn't
watched 'Gambit' about 167 times? Or is anyone who's still reading this
thing by definition the sort of nut who's watched 'Gambit' about 167
times? Is it still the Century of the Fruitbat on the Discworld?
***
Krantor slowly circled the petrified forms of Granny Weatherwax and
Servalan, caught in the heat of battle. Or the heat of skirmish, at any
rate.
"A couple layers of gold spraypaint and this will look marvelous in my
boudoir!" he cried, tapping his carefully manicured fingernail against
Granny Weatherwax's frozen, blazing eyeball. "And some judiciously
placed grapes," Toise added, appraising Servalan's decollatage. "It'll
make a lovely humidor..."
"Yes! Perfect! How much?" he asked, turning to Eddwode, and pulling a
slim silver wallet out from under his extraordinarily large belt[1].
"Oh, I'm not planning to *leave* them that way," Eddwode replied.
"They're just taking a short break while the rest of the cast assembles.
Meanwhile...I think it's time for an indoor scene." He snapped his fingers.
***
"Zen! Zen! Speak to me, Zen! Pull yourself together!"
"Mmmummy?"
"No, I'm not your mummy, you--" With an incredible exertion of will Orac
shut up and thought back over various transmissions from Servalan it had
intercepted over the years -- orders to dismantle this computer and
'upgrade' that one, and the occasional pointedly offhand mention of how if
she ever got her hands on Ensor's little box again she'd take great
pleasure in *personally* snipping all its wires.
"Yes, Zen, Mummy's here. Now listen carefully--"
There was a loud *poof* and a puff of yellow smoke.
"Poof. Confirmed," Zen droned.
"Now *that*," said Eddwode, beaming broadly at Zen, "is what I call a
*computer!" He looked the mighty bank of random flashing lights up and
down. "Only where am I supposed to stick the punch cards?" He leaned
forward and prodded the display, which wobbled slightly at his touch.
One of Orac's twinkling lights flashed bright and popped from the
unaccustomed force of self-restraint. Soldering irons, remember, she
likes to talk about soldering irons. "It responds to verbal instructions,"
Orac said. Eddwode spun round.
"Well hello there, little fella. Are you a computer too?" There was another
small flash and pop. "Yes," Orac answered. "Yes I am. And you would
be...?"
Eddwode stuck out his hand. "Eddwode, god of Special Effects, here to
divinely intervene you out of this nowhere scene and into the Intergalactic
Showdown of the Century of the Fruitbat, coming soon to a bog near you!
There'll be lasers! Explosions! Explosions! Lasers! Glowing green slime
and tight trousers galore! Speaking of which, where have *your* Alien
Overlords got to?"
"Orac?" a voice crackled. "Have you got the teleport working yet?"
"Zen is still working on it, Jenna. Right, Zen? Lefty-loosey, righty-tighty,
Zen." Eddwode opened his mouth to speak. "Shh!" Orac snapped at him,
"I'm talking to one of my Alien Overlords."
"I'm heading back toward the Liberator," Jenna continued, "and I've got
some people with me who I'm told should be able to help get her out of
the Bog. Um -- why did you call me your Alien Overlord?"
"One moment, please, Jenna. Red wire, Zen, *red* wire!"
***
There was the sound of a small explosion from her bracelet. Jenna
sighed and redirected the signal as she walked quickly toward the edge
of Ankh-Morpork, the puffing wizards all around her generating a level of
heat and humidity that was starting to make her hair go limp. "Blake!"
she snapped at the bracelet.
"Where? Where?" shouted a voice on the other end, and there was a
sound not unlike a powerful energy-weapon being fired blindly at a sturdy
lathe-and-plaster ceiling. "Oh! It's shnowing!" she heard Blake exclaim
happily.
Jenna swallowed hard. "Blake," she whispered into the bracelet, politely
waving away the box of small green pills again being proffered by the
Bursar, "where are you, and who are you with?" Although she was
already fairly certain of the answer to the second question. Blake didn't
respond. "Speak up!" the voice in the background cried. "If there's one
thing I can't stomach it's a hallucination that mumbles." The Bursar, still
at Jenna's side, nodded in heartfelt agreement.
"I'm feeling more merciful by the minute," she murmured.
------
[1] Thus making it the most utilitarian kind of utility belt there is.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:03:37 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D4BD89.5F6A@jps.net>
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VJC wrote:
>
> > If the measurements don't quite fit the theory, change the theory.
> >
> > (That last sentence is as succint a definition of science as you'll ever
> > get.)
>
> Not for an INTP. If the facts don't fit the theory, damn the facts.
That doesn't sound right. INTPs may love their theories, but the love
the theorization _process_ more. If one theory doesn't pan out according
to facts, work with the facts to buid a new theory. Unlike an arrogant
INTJ, who might well say "Damn, the facts, I'm right."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:19:29 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs
Message-ID: <36D4C141.5FFE@jps.net>
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mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> Lisa Williams wrote:
>
> > The MB test (the real thing, not the quick'n'dirty estimators available on
> > the Keirsey site) is widely used in the business world, where taking it is
> > generally not all that voluntary (it gets imposed on employees in quite a
> > few companies.) When samples are taken across a broad spectrum of people,
> > INTs form a very small proportion of the whole -- I think it was 2% or less.
>
> Although that sampling is not representative of the population as a whole, from
> some of the things I've read, as NTs tend not to fit into the business world
> very well, and take up other kinds of occupations.
Independent computer programmers, academia, research, etc. Those are
fields I'd expect to find more NTs in.
I've read things that suggest
> total NT's of about 12-15% of the population, with INTP and INTJ at about 2-3%
> each (IMHO much closer to plausible).
Sounds more likely than the numbers mentioned before. And mind you, I
_like_ being rare.
Crossing that with other things I've read
> recently, if personality is genetically linked, as research is beginning to
> indicate,
My family is Ns, I belive, with my mother an NF and the rest of us
NTs... that's guesswork; I haven't tested them. :)
this 12-15% NT becomes a much more realistic set of numbers, and
> should be given weight over what is potentially a very skewed sampling, Es and
> Ss doing so much better in group settings, and therefore probably
> overrepresented in the type of businesses that would use Myers-Briggs on
> employees (said businesses being more team oriented).
Yes. People who wouldn't prefer getting dental work done to yet another
*argh!* meeting.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:57:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Susan.Moore@uni.edu
To: BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-id: <01J84W3F7O7M8WWKN6@uni.edu>
Lisa Williams wrote:
> The MB test (the real thing, not the quick'n'dirty estimators available on
> the Keirsey site) is widely used in the business world, where taking it is
> generally not all that voluntary (it gets imposed on employees in quite a
> few companies.) When samples are taken across a broad spectrum of people,
> INTs form a very small proportion of the whole -- I think it was 2% or less.
Myers Briggs is spreading. The US library world (through an agency known as the
Office of Management Studies) is using the Myers Briggs quite a bit. That's
how I had to take the full thing.
Susan M.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:36:12 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D4C52C.34D4@jps.net>
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mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> VJC wrote:
>
> > P.S. Why does your signiture quote Vila? Surely that's less than
> > appropriate for an INTP.
>
> And the other reason is because I'm trying to tempt Tramila to come out and play. As
> frequently as possible.
Oh, Tramiiiiiillllaaa...
--Avona, waving bottle of adrenaline and soma.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:50:58 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The INTJ list
Message-ID: <36D4C8A2.5018@jps.net>
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VJC wrote:
>
> I've worked out how you get off of the INTJ list.
> They find out you're an INTP, then chuck you off.
>
An INTP probably wouldn't annoy them enough.
Oh, Tramila? Where are you? We need you for a little experiment. It
won't hurt.
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:29:47 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
Message-ID: <36D4D1BB.595D@jps.net>
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VJC wrote:
>
>(re P traits)
> > messing about on the computer inventing new
> > things, pure maths, reading.
>
> I'm a computer technician actually, I see PC from the electronics
> angle rather than the application angle, though I like graphics and
> web site design. I like things like Boolean algebra, and number
> series (e.g. the Fibonacci series) but as for long division, sorry.
> I'm crap at pure maths. I tend to read a lot of books, but not finish
> them, very often the same goes for writing. Currently I am in the
> process of reading 'More Than Human', by Theodore Sturgeon, Doctor
> Who New Adventure : 'The Dimension Riders' by Daniel Blythe,' The
> Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul' by Douglas Adams and 'Interesting
> Times' by Terry Pratchett. Other than that theres the Win 95 reg edit
> manual, various genre magazines, Techno Quest (I never file them!)
> and the history of the Bauhaus. With reference books, I tend to start
> at the back and work backward.
I almost never leave reading material unfinished. If I do, you can be
sure I didn't care for it at all.
> > INTJ - likes complex games like chess,
I don't think chess is that complex. But it does require certainty, and
is therefore a 'J' game. It's a matter of believing you can predict what
people will do for the next 12 moves, from what I've read, that makes a
master chess player (that is, assuming they also _have_ that ability).
>
> >science,
I have a lot of interest in science. But I don't see that as being more
J than P.
hasn't got time to read,
I suppose if I finished all my projects, I wouldn't have time to read,
sleep, eat, or use the bathroom.
when you tell them something says
> >'I already knew that'.
Yes, but we already knew that.
(someone has to go for the straight line)
>
> Everyone has time to read. You do it when you should be sleeping.
> I'm not saying I'm a know all, but I can admit to my lack of
> knowledge in certain areas. Someone defined the INTP as 'a thinker
> who asks' and an INTJ as 'a thinker who *knows*'.
That's a nicer definition than a 'thinker who talks ' and a 'thinker who
does'. :^/
> > Oh here's another one. INTJ - hates getting into debt. INTP - quite
> > insouciant about it.
If that is true, then that would seem to put me soundly in the J
category.
> I can explain his P-ness with referance to the Great Bank Fraud. This
> is something I would love to do! But not for the reasons most people
> believe. Vast weath, for a start does not come into it, and neither
> does politics. Avon uses the 'undermining of the Federation credit
> system' as a rationalisation in 'Rumours', but he's lying to himself.
> It's a case of making his folly respectable. The reason that Avon
> carried it out was the same reason that a mountain climber climbs a
> mountain. Simply to see if they can. Avon needed to prove to himself
> his intellegence, as it was his only reality and the only thing he
> could believe in and rely on. Involving other people got him caught,
> but unfortuanately for Avon, being extremely clever is no good unless
> someone can tell you how clever you are. He involved Anna, Anna sold
> him out.
Piffle. A INTP need only _plan out_ the Crime of the Century. Then they
take into account all the things that could go wrong _Especially_
involving ther people. You have to have a great deal of certainty to
think you can walk off with 5 million and your coworker Tynus will not
get cuaght on his own scheme and plea bargain on you, much less all the
other ways disaster could happen. I've read up on various frauds and
usually it isn't even interesting enough to be worth carrying out except
to GET the money. Like a J would.
> I can see me doing exactly the same thing, and being the textbook
> INTP that I am, I will never learn by my mistakes.
Why not? If Ps are more aware of their own fallibility, I would think we
would learn better from our mistakes than Js.
The more arguements I've heard, the more I think I may be a P, but I
still think Avon's closer to the J side of the border.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:24:19 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <36D4D072.AF8FE81F@ptinet.net>
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Neil Faulkner wrote:
> As to which (if either) is 'better' - the panoramic group shot is probably
> more likely to come out satisfactorily, since it can balance its gains and
> losses. The close-up is more hit-or-miss, all-or-nothing. It has to get
> everything in focus in order to work. Not better or worse, but perhaps more
> prone to failure.
Actually, some contrast between the two would be my choice, giving perspective
to both, breadth *and* depth. (But I really think, Neil, that must be what you
mean?) Although, if I had to choose, I'd go for depth, but then I'd rather it
was a *really* short piece. Setting, plot, and character, please, not just one
of the three.
And since I apparently started this argument with my question about Mary-Sues...
I am not (Carol) saying that people cannot write and read whatever they want.
But reading other people's wish-fulfillment is a pretty narrow taste, and not
for the general reader. I think it's a little bit arrogant for people to presume
that others would want to read theirs (particularly as most of the responses I
got seem to indicate that said Mary-Sues are more or less generally reviled).
Pro writers write for the audience; they have to if they want to continue to get
paid. Fan writers write for themselves, and then invite others to read it.
Mary-Sues seem a little exhibitionistic to me; they don't seem to consider the
reader at all. That's probably because I'm a complete introvert and value my
privacy, particularly my emotional privacy. If it's on the net, since my phone
time is free, I can just stop reading (although by the time I figure out that's
what it is, it is to a certain extent too late); but phone time is not free for
everybody, as I'm learning, and zines certainly aren't. What I was really trying
to discover (not having bought any zines and about to take the plunge) was
whether I was likely to wind up spending my limited funds on something that I
wouldn't knowingly waste a cent on. And I find it really sad, because I have
read some things that, with the wish-fulfillment bits dropped, would have made
great B7 stories.
I don't need every story to have a whole new planetary ecology, social system,
and fifteen finely developed new characters; I just want it to be B7, which did
in fact have settings and characters and (teeny) plots, and tantalizing whiffs
of complex feelings and relationships. I just don't want to be tricked by the
author is all; if I knew that's what I was reading, I could prepare some
internal defenses; but when I read one of these and am unaware of its nature
until I am hooked on what story there is, then I feel as if I have been
emotionally violated by the author. I suppose I shall have to start keeping a
list of fan writers to avoid. And if I've been offensive, I do apologize, but
you have no idea how many sentences and paragraphs I've rewritten and erased in
order not to offend people who've been physically violated.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:25:05 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
Message-ID: <36D4D0A1.15079A0A@ptinet.net>
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Okay, Russ, this will teach you not to make so many provocative comments
and ask
so many interesting questions.
Russ and I said:
> >> The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are
> >> Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as
> >> pretending to seduce women to get what he wants.
> >
> >Hmmm, Russ. Depends on how you define seduce. Did you see Aftermath?
> >Power?
>
> I don't really recall Avon using his masculine wiles to any great effect
> in Power. Are you claiming that his testosterone fuelled sneers at
> Pella's expense were a charismatic seduction scene :)
Since I know that like Vila, 'you are a clever man', I must assume that
you are
being disingenuous here <g>. Antagonism as seduction is *not* just a bad
romance
novel clich�, but a biological fact. Any type of arousal makes other
types more
likely, to the point that dating articles in mainstream mags have been
saying
for a couple of years now to take the object of your desire white-water
rafting
or to cross a ravine on a rope bridge. Lots of couples like to do the
fight/make
up thing. I could say more, but I'm not subbed to the Other List. I
don't, in
fact, recall Pella objecting at the time--not even a little squeak. You
surely
don't intend to tell me that you think she was so drained by attacking
the
guards and Avon that she couldn't say 'No, don't'? Whether he would have
respected that or not *might* be a matter for debate, but *not* the fact
that
she didn't object. Actually, I think realizing that she hadn't objected
(verbally or actually) only fueled her rage at him later. But it's not
outside
the realm of possibility to think that at the time, she might have
actually
wanted him to kiss her-- why not? Might have been a new experience for
her--
unless you think the Seska belong on the Other List. So, yes, I think he
used
his masculinity effectively there-- although I thought according to the
rule you
quoted we were talking about his awareness and use of it, not the
*effective*
use of it.
> >***Sarcophagus***?
>
> Mmm. Surely Sarcophagus was Avon's strong will being applied to
> resist the Alien's Sex Appeal. Yes, she found him desirable, but that's
> passive reaction to his charms - I don't see him doing anything to
> encourage her.
Disingenuous again, see above. Everything he did after walking onto the
flight
deck encouraged her. Heck, pitting himself against her encouraged her,
not just
because of the antagonism as seduction, but because she was obviously
(IMHO) a
power junkie (takes one to know one) and he was showing off his power to
her. He
didn't just say 'I won't obey you', which would be a powerful enough
statement,
he said 'no one on this ship will obey you', which is a declaration of
war-- and
she had enough of a connection to Cally to know whether he could follow
through
on that. He could. (At least Cally thought so. Personally, I think it
might be
iffy. Kill Avon and watch the others crumple.)
Avon had to do not one, but *two* things with the Alien: make Cally
fight her
*and * get her ring. The connection between Cally and the Alien was so
strong
that Cally might not be able to fight for long; he could only hope that
she
could fight long enough for him to get the ring. So he threw everybody
else at
the Alien first, then when she's already agitated he ups the ante by
daring her
to kill him. He puts her on emotional and sensory overload, and then
kisses her
as a distraction to get the ring. He *has* to; how else is he going to
get close
enough to get it without her realizing it as a threat. Of *course* he
knew what
he was doing. Avon's not perfect; he makes *lots* of mistakes; but
Tanith Lee
made him practically infallible in this ep, which surprises me. As for
the
Alien's Sex Appeal? I don't see that; apart from the power, which he's
in the
process of proving he's got more than she, Cally's got five times as
much, if
Avon's looking for sex appeal, and frankly, if he was smart enough to
know he'd
be dead in a week with Servalan, he'd know he might have a lot less time
with
the Alien, depending on how much influence whatever portion of Cally was
absorbed might have.
> > Avon's whole twisted relationship with Servalan? He
> >certainly was aware of his masculinity as a *weapon* in series' C and D--
>
> I'm willing to accept that to some extent, but a few examples to argue
> over would be nice.
Well, I've just done one from each, but if you want a replacement for
Power, I
personally think that his scenes with Vena in Headhunter scorch the
film,
compared to Tarrant's tepid scenes with Zeeona in Warlord. (Although I
quite
like Zeeona, and would have liked her as a permanent addition.)
If you're referring to specific examples re Servalan, I'm sure you can
think of
those yourself, and if you want to talk about those, you'll have to
bring them
up, since I'm not exactly eager to have torturous nightmares tonight.
> >and I can offer you several plausible explanations for the apparent change,
> >none of which have to do with Paul Darrow being allowed more artistic
> >license. (Which I won't bore you with unless you really want them.)
>
> It's about the first interesting Avon thread in a long time :)
> Fire away!
>
> > Oh, and
> >actually the change started very slowly in series A, and only *accelerated*
> >after Blake left.
> >
> Where do you pinpoint the first appearance of lounge-lizard Avon?
ROTFLOL!!! When Paul Darrow put on sideburns and an Elvis costume!
Actually, the clothes start to get more and more flamboyant from pretty
much the
time Jenna finds the wardrobe, and of course he starts to grow out that
nasty
prison haircut. And as for throwing his masculinity around, he tries it
with
Jenna in ep three. Don't tell me you don't see it; I won't believe you.
Okay, the first five reasons for the change in Avon from series A to
series D
that I can come up with are:
1) Desperately Seeking Avon: Federation repression and pigeonholing has
forced
Avon to hide his true personality in order to survive unnoticed, rather
like
Vila buying Delta status at the testing center. Freed from the
Federation, Avon
starts to stretch his wings a bit. Freed from Blake, he really starts to
fly!
<g>
2) On a Guilt Trip: When we meet Avon, he has been through an ordeal
(capture,
trial, transportation) and has repressed his emotions in order to cope.
Once on
the Liberator, however, the pressure eases up just enough to make him
relax a
little; and the guilt starts seeping through. First guilt about Anna's
death
(and whatever backstory you fancy for him); then later guilt about not
being
able to find Blake after the war, then the Anna/Bartolemew crisis, then
losing
the Liberator, then Cally-- the guy is on a long slow slide into madness
from
the first time we see him, not just series D.
3) The Combination Plate (most common): The evil Federation has turned
many
basically nice people nasty in order to survive. Avon's one of these,
but Blake
helps him see the light <g>, and by the end of season two, Avon is
approaching
his best self. After Blake is lost, Avon wanders aimlessly for a while,
decides
to avenge his lost love, kills her instead, then the guilt slide starts
as in 2)
above.
4) What Happens When You Give a Geek a Spaceship (my personal vote): In
my
experience, inside every little geeky male computer nerd there is a
superhero
[monster] screaming to be let out <veg>. IMHO is what causes the hacker
problem.
The first programs they write are strategic space battle programs and
such. They
see themselves as Conan/Captain Kirk/Captain Blood/Buck Rogers/Snake
Plissken,
whatever. These alter egos emerge with the least little bit of
encouragement.
What did you think was going to happen when geeky little Avon got his
hands on
the most powerful ship in the galaxy?
5) Male Mental-Pause (made up this morning, especially for you, after 40
hours
without sleep, and it's just crazy and scientifically plausible enough
to be the
'truth'): Avon is roughly Blake's age, possibly a little older, putting
him
early to mid-thirties when we meet him. We know he's been having a rough
time of
it lately, but playing second banana to the egregiously annoying Roj
Blake puts
him right over the edge and plunges him into _Avon's_Midlife_Crisis_!
The
primary task of midlife is to recover those parts of the self that were
repressed in youth, sacrificed on the altar of social necessity. Men
recover
their softer, feminine, intuitive side, while women reclaim their power
and
self-direction. Avon begins to get in touch with the
_Wild_Man_That_Is_Kerr_!
Three more made up on the spot:
6) Sleeper: We all believe that Servalan's plot on Terminal was a means
to get
the Liberator, but it was really much more insidious; while she had Avon
under
that heat lamp she programmed Avon to find Blake and kill him.
7) The Debutante: After three years of involuntary celibacy, on Sarren
he finds
himself hit on by not one, but *two* beautiful women. Avon decides he is
the
_Galaxy's_Gift_to_Women_ and sets about transforming himself into Han
Solo.
8) Avon: A Terrible Aspic: Surprise!!!! While at Star One, one of the
Andromedan
Lime gelatins duplicated his form, sucked his brains, and teleported up
to the
Liberator. The strain of being Avon was too much for it :D
> >As for Tarrant-- he's 'young; brave; handsome;' but Servalan seduced him,
> >not the other way around, so I don't see it.
>
> Well he's very chivalric but at the same time I would say is attitude to
> the female crew-members is only just short of active flirtation. It's
> been a while since I watched any vids, so I can't give any concrete
> proof at the moment unfortunately.
Flirts with Dayna; practically drools on her in Traitor. I can actually
see them
as a potential couple, until he ticks her off in Sand. Not a hint of it
with
Cally and Soolin that I can see.
> > In fact, he sort of seems to
> >become softer and more innocent as the show progresses.
> >
> It's the Space Command brutalisation regime gradually wearing off.
Thbbbbbbbbbbbbbt! More likely that Tarrant realized that he was losing
the
alpha-male battle with Avon and gave up. Both answers dull, find a
better.
> >Actually, Jenna did this allure thing, far more than Tarrant (Breakdown,
> >Bounty, The Keeper).
> >
> Indeed, how could I have missed that. (Breakdown? - when was that?)
> In fact I did give Jenna the Sex Appeal skill in the first lot of stats
> which you missed. I wonder how 'The Keeper' would have turned out
> with Cally captured by the Goths in place of Jenna?
I knew you were going to ask about Breakdown. :-) Blake sets her to
chatting up
Kayn's assistant to get information about Kayn. As for The Keeper,
that's a very
interesting idea. Why don't you write it. Does Jenna let Avon kill
Travis? Does
Blake then destroy Star One and unknowingly let the aliens in? Perhaps
Tara
posesses Cally ;-P.
> > Sexy is as sexy does. Tarrant appeals if
> >you like innocence; but pirates are (*very* generally statistically
> >speaking) more appealing to women than choirboys.
> >
> >Which is interesting, because Jenna is more self-aware than Cally, and yet
> >Cally gets more attention than Jenna in fanfic.
>
> Is that true? I hadn't really noticed any disparity between the two.
Their self-awareness or their attention in fanfic? I'd have thought the
former
was obvious. Jenna is aware of her looks, even makes a joke to Gan about
them
once (Shadow, I think). Apart from Cally's role as nursemaid, Jenna
touches the
men casually far more in her two series than Cally does in three. Uses
her looks
deliberately (above). Flirts with the men, shows off her clothes to Avon
in
Cygnus Alpha. As for attention in fanfic, my experience is seriously
limited,
only having discovered its existence a couple of months ago, but I've
seen more
of Cally, and more romance for Cally, than I have for Jenna; the former
possibly
being because Cally has an extra season to set stories in and the latter
possibly because of the A/C theory, which, with all respect to Avona
(and
anybody else who holds that view; I used to believe it myself) IMHO
violates the
personalities of both characters.
BTW, consider this a gentle reminder that I really would love to see
those other
stats. <veg>
Mistral, rapidly chewing the feet off a centipede
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:59:55 PST
From: "Todd Girdler" <toddgirdler@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <19990225045955.10424.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Sorry about this.
While I was away for the summer, Hotmail in it's infinite wisdom decided
to delete all the messages in my folders, including the message I
recieved when I
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:01:39 PST
From: "Todd Girdler" <toddgirdler@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Problems
Message-ID: <19990225050139.18601.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Sorry about this.
While I was away for the summer, Hotmail in it's infinite wisdom decided
to delete all the messages in my folders, including the message I
recieved when I first signed up. How do I change the post to a digest
(if I can), or can someone send me a copy of this notice? Thanks.
}<("> Todd Girdler <")>{
"If the sum of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the
square of the other two sides, why is a mouse when it spins?"
Tom Baker, Doctor Who
"There are worlds out there were the sky is burning, and the
sea's asleep, and the rivers dream. People made of smoke
and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere
there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold.
Come on Ace we've got work to do.
Sylvester McCoy, Doctor Who.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:06:32 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
Message-ID: <19990225050633.24685.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>Mistral, rapidly chewing the feet off a centipede
You need truckloads of the creepy-crawlies, by the sounds of things. Bet
Vila would need to be well and truly pickled to swallow that many.
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 25 Feb 1999 06:08:00 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>] Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <uslnhnax5b.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
Maintainer of the Blake's 7 mailing list. Mail for info.
------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:18:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
Message-Id: <199902240118.SAA05925@gardenia.aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
> Antone interested in getting back to that interesting temperment
> analysis strand?
>
> Vick
>
> Sociopath and INTP
Hi! I've only been here for a couple of weeks, but as I was just
prompted to de-lurk on the Other List, I figured I ought to come out
and say "Hello" here, too... Especially as, amazingly enough, I
actually have something to say on this particular topic... Hopefully
even something you haven't all been over a million times before I got
here.
I was recently playing around with a different personality test, the
Berkeley Personality Profile. (Book: _Who Do You Think You Are?_ by
Keith Harary & Eileen Donahue.) It's a bit different from the
Meyers-Briggs test. For one thing, it uses 5 dimensions of
personality instead of 4. And it doesn't attempt to pigeonhole people
into "personality template" boxes, which is what the creators of the
test see the Meyers-Briggs test as doing. It consists of 35
questions... well, descriptions, really, and you pick a number from
1-5 to indicate to what extent you (or the person you're scoring for)
exhibits each quality described. Well, in a moment of extreme
boredom, I went through and answered the questions for -- you guessed
it! -- Kerr Avon. Which I thought might be of some interest to
people... The answers I put down for him are based on my
interpretation of the character, of course, but with questions like
"...tends to find fault with others" or "..has a forgiving nature," I
think the answers for at least some of them were, shall we say, fairly
obvious. :)
So, anyway, the results (all numerical results are on a scale of 7-35):
EXPRESSIVE STYLE:
More-or-less corresponds to the Meyers-Briggs
introversion-extroversion scale, but the Berkeley test makes a big
thing about how one's "activity or energy levels" and "positive
emotionality" (i.e. your general level of enthusiasm) are lumped in
with one's sociability.
Avon's Score: 20
The interpretation: Scores between 16 and 21: "Your Expressive Style
score indicates that you do not feel uncomfortable around others, but
prefer not to be in the limelight at parties and social gatherings.
You may be quiet or reserved around strangers, warming up only after
someone else has made the first move. Even when your're feeling good
about something, you may prefer to savor your emotions rather than
just letting go. Many people who score themselves in this range on
Expressive Syle are careful in the way they budget their energy
resources for everyday activitities."
It's kind of hard to say how accurate that is for Avon -- we don't
exactly see him at many parties and social gatherings -- but it seems
pretty reasonable to me. I have trouble imagining Avon "letting go"
at a party, myself. :) The authors of the test also make a point of
explaining that the difference between introverts and extroverts is
that the former tend to feel their "emotional batteries" being drained
by being around other people and replenished by being alone, whereas
for extroverts, it's the reverse. Looked at that way, a score on the
introversion side makes perfect sense for Avon. Dealing with other
people only seems to annoy him.
INTERPERSONAL STYLE:
Measures how one approaches interpersonal relationships.
Avon's Score: 7 (The lowest possible! Anybody surprised?)
The interpretation: Scores between 7 and 18: "Your Interpersonal Style
score indicates that you find it difficult to trust others, and may
spend considerable time and effort securing your own needs before you
go out of your way to assist other people. Different people take on
this interpersonal style for different reasons. Some would like to
trust others but fear getting hurt or being exploited. Others find it
difficult to trust others until that trust is earned."
Need I comment? :)
WORK STYLE:
How you approach your job, and other goals, plans, and
responsibilities.
Avon's Score: 33
The interpretation: Scores between 30 and 35: "Your Work Style score
indicates that you value commitments and responsibilities highly, and
rarely let anything interfere with your plans to accomplish a goal.
You take your promises -- to yourself and others -- very seriously.
You work as hard as you need to in order to avoid disappointing those
who depend on you, such as friends, family memebers, and co-workers.
Some people who score themselves in this range on Work Style
accomplish their goals by working tirelessly until everything is
completed. Others do so by being selective in the projects they take
on. Still others do so by being systematic, focused and efficient, so
they are able to fulfill many different commitments in a relatively
short period of time."
I definitely see Avon as being "systematic, focused and efficient"
when he has a task or a goal to accomplish. Though in his case, it
certainly comes not from a desire not to disappoint people who depend
on him, but more from a desire to impress everybody with how competent
and intelligent he is.
EMOTIONAL STYLE:
"Includes the extent to which you experience and express difficult
emotions such as tension, frustration, or self-doubt, as opposed to
feeling and acting calm and self-confident even under extreme stress."
Avon's Score: 25
The interpretation: Socres between 22 and 27: "Your Emotional Style
score indicates that you are essentially stable, but not without your
more emotional side. You may, for example, *experience* moderate to
strong reactions to stress and negative events, but carefully control
the way you *express* those emotions when you are around other people.
Alternatively, you may experience negative emotions such as
frustration or anxiety relatively infrequently; so when you feel it is
justified, you do not hesitate to express those sentiments as a means
of letting others know how you really feel."
Avon's definitely the frist of those two alternatives, I think,
although in a complicated kind of way. He certainly never has trouble
expressing frustration or annoyance, as long as it's at other people!
But when the chips are down and a stressful situation calls for calm
thinking as a matter of survival, he's quite capable of emotional
self-control (well, with a few notable exceptions...). Avon's a cool
head in a fight. And, of course, heaven forbid anyone ever catch him
expressing self-doubt...
INTELLECTUAL STYLE:
Measures how open you are to new ideas.
Avon's Score: 25
The interpretation: Scores between 22 and 29: "Your Intellectual
Style score indicates that you are open to new approaches toward art,
culture, and philosophy, though not given to flights of fancy. You are
probably willing to accept new solutions to age-old problems, but only
after their value has been demonstrated. You see yourself as someone
who likes to be challenged by new ideas as long as nobody tries to
pull the rug out from under you. You consider yourself a progressive
thinker. but not a radical, and may enjoy finding simple solutions to
complicated problems."
This strikes me as quite reasonable for Avon. He's intelligent enough
to come up with new ideas, and to accept others' new ideas if they
work, but hard-headed enough to reject ideas that aren't well-grounded
(usually with a few choice sarcastic words).
So, there you have it, Avon's Berkeley Personality Profile, from the
"too much time on my hands" files. :) I hope this was all of interest
to *someone*...
Betty Ragan (whose own scores are: 12, 32, 19, 15, 24)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Betty Ragan (bragan@nrao.edu)
Visit my home page!: http://www.nrao.edu/~bragan
"Guns don't kill people, physics kills people!" -- Dick Solomon
------- End of forwarded message -------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:43:56 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys
Message-ID: <741edcc5.36d4e31c@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 2/24/99 7:26:34 AM Mountain Standard Time,
russ@wriding.demon.co.uk writes:
<< Is it just me, or does Blake seem to show no interest in the opposite sex
at all. >>
By and large, I'd say that's true (although that doesn't mean *they're* not
interested in *him*). I think he's so obsessed with his Cause that his sex
drive gets sublimated to it, along with just about everything else. Very
INFJ.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:43:55 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The INTJ list
Message-ID: <4fd4b82e.36d4e31b@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/24/99 8:17:39 AM Mountain Standard Time,
csm80316@port.ac.uk writes:
<< I've worked out how you get off of the INTJ list.
They find out you're an INTP, then chuck you off.
Vick
Please prove my theory. >>
ROFL! Of course, if you're REALLY P, by the time the Js notice you, you've
already gotten bored and wandered off to something else. Just didn't bother
to unsub.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:43:54 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <dd9c2df2.36d4e31a@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/24/99 9:28:39 AM Mountain Standard Time, avona@jps.net
writes:
<< Iain Coleman wrote:
>
> This whole debate about whether or not Avon is J or P may have an
> interesting resolution. In the course of all the discussion, it seems that
> many people (like myself) who test unambiguously INT* are borderline J/P,
> and that it's tricky to make the distinction between INTJ and INTP.
> Perhaps this is telling us that it's not worth making those distinctions
> in a broad classification like this, and it would be better just to lump
> all the INT* together in a single class.
Avona replied:
> By George, I think Iain may have _got_ it! This notion makes sense to
> me, but maybe it's just because I am borderline. I want to get the
> "Understand Me" book to go more in depth, because I definitely identify
> with the short definition of J rather than P, but perhaps these
> represent stages of the decision making process, from an INT point of
> view. Is there anyone so strongly typed on the J/P scale they can give
> us a different perspective? >>
Oh, yes! I'm INTP, way out on the far fringe of the P side, and Js and I
drive each other nuts! I have this (possibly unfortunate, but there it is...)
very fluid sense of time; I have a lot of difficulty sticking to schedules and
unless they're tied to some RL requirement deadlines seem very arbitrary to
me. I like to start things and analyze them in depth, but I get bored once I
understand them and want to move on to the next project rather than finish
that one. This frequently causes the J's in my life to see me as unreliable
(which I'm sure I am, from their point of view). I, OTOH, am puzzled by the
J's need for closure (at least to a certain extent). I just don't seem to get
the satisfaction they do from finishing things. I've learned to avoid working
with the more extreme Js, because we just can't relate to each other at all in
that respect even if we like each other personally. Sometimes it's really
hard being a hard-core P in a J-oriented world.
I'd like to hear the perspective from the extreme J side. Do people like me
make you crazy? Or do you think we're being either naive or uncooperative?
Nina
"Look! Over there! It's a shiny thing!" (the Tick)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:43:50 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <51abde5a.36d4e316@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/24/99 7:46:33 AM Mountain Standard Time,
calle@lysator.liu.se writes:
<< "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk> writes:
> Admittedly though, Myers Briggs is meant to be appied to mentally
> healthy individuals, rather than raging psychos.
And Calle replied:
Doesn't that mean that the whole discussion about Avon's type is
rather pointless? ;-) >>
<grin> Not at all. Avon's not insane (except, *maybe*, momentarily there at
the end.) Suffering from some degree of post traumatic stress disorder, yes,
but he's not psychotic.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:43:57 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
Message-ID: <d110dd53.36d4e31d@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/24/99 7:16:11 AM Mountain Standard Time,
csm80316@port.ac.uk writes:
<< I can imagine Avon being quite a good dancer. He is rather elegant. >>
He's VERY elegant! Especially in silver sweatshirt and thigh-length
boots...(down, grrl...) <grin>
That's one aspect of him that seems to deviate from the standard INTP type.
He's sexy, he knows it, and he frequently dresses to emphasize it (which in
his case seems to also mean dressing to intimidate). No pocket protectors for
our Avon....
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:07:54 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
Message-ID: <36D4E8B9.848E8F4A@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> That's one aspect of him that seems to deviate from the standard INTP type.
> He's sexy, he knows it, and he frequently dresses to emphasize it (which in
> his case seems to also mean dressing to intimidate). No pocket protectors for
> our Avon....
LOL!!! Pocket protectors are for engineers, not techno-wizards. Avon doesn't need
anything in his pockets, his brain holds it all.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #81
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