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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 84
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] everything
RE: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!)
[B7L] Re: Avon: J or P?
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!)
Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Re: [B7L] Career change?
[B7L] PD was on TV
Re: [B7L] Run for the hills...
Re: [B7L] Career change?
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast.
Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
[B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...)
[B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues
Re: [B7L] Career change?
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Career change?
Re: [Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>] Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P?
[B7L] Avon & Vena (was Re:Allure...)
Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games etc.
Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Re: [B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:50:11 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] everything
Message-ID: <36D63609.6D1F@jps.net>
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>
> Whee! This is fun!
> This list is being a whirlwind of stimulating and witty conversation.
> <much chuckles>
> You folk are great!
> Whee!
>
> (Kathryn attempting an extrovert-style post as previously demonstrated
> by Tramila, whose other name ought to be Tigger, with all that
> bouncing)
> (But I really do mean it. This is fun.)
Oh! Yes! I can't remember when I've ever been with a group where So many
people have such INTERESTING things to say! ::does the happy dance::
::big hug for Tramila:: See? We want you to feel right at home.
TTFN
::bouncing away for her shower::
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:28:12 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!)
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB4D@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
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Avona wrote:
> Okay, this, I think is an important distinction. An SJ wants their OUTER
> world organized. An NJ wants their INNER world organized? Doesn't that
> fit both with the theory, and with general observation?
>
You have obviously never seen my house or desk. I think I got that S on
Meyers Briggs, because it's constant change that bothers me. Particularly
change without any actual reason, as it is just as tiring to me as contact
with other people (the I thingy). When there is a good reason, I can support
or even initiate change with the best of them, but I never saw the point in
spending an entire day moving furniture around just to see how it looks when
the couch is in front of the window or something. My mother does this sort
of thing all the time and I've had to forcibly restrain her from doing it to
my house all the time, too.
But as for picking things up after myself: a lot of my female colleagues
tell me I remind them of their husbands in this respect <g>.
Jacqueline
ISTJ
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:04:50 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P?
Message-ID: <19990226100450.21688.qmail@hotmail.com>
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><< How many people on this list actually vote for eack camp?
> Let's have a show of hands.
> >>
>I think he's INTP.
I say beware of false dichotomies.
-- Rob
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:27:29 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!)
Message-ID: <284B0536B2F@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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I would put the NTs and NFs together, becuse they work as a sharp
contrast to the P and J sensates, as Intuition is a form of
perception in its own right. It also renders the INTx J/P argument
redundant.
My own thought on this is, as a P, I'm allowed to show certain
Jishness. A true J would never show any Pishness at all.
Vick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:45:44 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Message-ID: <284FECB4AE2@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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Mistal wrote:
> Compare the way that he watches Vena when he talks to her with the way he
> glances at other people -- looks at, looks away, etc., throughout series D.
> Watches Vena very quietly. Looks deep into her eyes. Appears to feel more
> regret at the pain Muller's death causes her than at the loss of Muller as
> an asset.
Very much a P trait. We have an extraverted feeling function, in the
INTJs feeling is buried. We do not feel the pain ourselves, but we
see the reflection of the pain in others, in this way we
suddenly become thoughtful, considerate people.
Besides, Muller's robot was such a good conselation prize for Avon.
Vick.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:49:50 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change?
Message-ID: <36D68A5C.9DE4693F@ptinet.net>
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Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/24/99 11:07:12 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
> > LOL!!! Pocket protectors are for engineers, not techno-wizards. Avon doesn't
> > need
> > anything in his pockets, his brain holds it all.
>
> Techno-wizard? Hmmm...Now there's a thought - Avon as a technomage! They'd
> have to give up the no-hair rule, though. (And which team would get him in
> the cricket match?)
'Fraid I can't get the credit/blame for this one. The idea came from a posting
about the upcoming JMS series Crusade; the characters are apparently rather
similar to the B7 crew, with the techno-mage approximating Avon, intersecting a
comment from one of Keirsey's books about INTPs being scientists whose secret
desire is to be wizards.... not even a tiny stretch, eh? But B7 gets him in the
cricket match!
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:08:43 -0000
From: Anne Lane <aplane@tesco.net>
To: "'B7'" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] PD was on TV
Message-ID: <01BE6180.CFE8C800.aplane@tesco.net>
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A pleasant surprise while packing for Redemption: caught the last half hour of
When The Boat Comes In on UK Gold and there was a very young and handsome Paul
playing an upper class army officer. Not sure when it was made - 70 -72?
Unfortunately not repeated later in the day.
Anne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:35:36 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Run for the hills...
Message-ID: <239a5631.36d69518@aol.com>
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I'm a little, or possibly a lot, behind on some e-mail. Anyhow, here are some
totally trivial comments. Feel free to skip if your time is scarce.
Joanne shared some more filks and I tried to sing parts of the one.
(Fortunately, no one was home to have to listen at the time.) Mind you, I've
not a clue what the tune for "Gough" is, so I metered in other songs that
seemed to fit:
> Roj
> (tune: Gough, by The Whitlams)
>
> Here's a story about a man named Roj
> Who wanted his freedom so very much
> He liked engineering, held his head high
> And he hated the Feds but he didn't know why
No doubt because of the "Here's a story" beginning, I sang this verse to the
tune of The Beverly Hillbillies theme. Try it, except for the second line,
where some syllables have to be drawn out, it works pretty well.
> There's a man in the tunnels tonight
> His name is Roj Blake, he was doing alright
> Until he remembered events of the past
> That's when he should've got out of there fast
Again because of the opening line, this reminded me of near the end of Blood
Brothers where the narrator is singing about "the man in the streets with a
gun tonight" (which I've always thought woud make a nifty Avon on GP short
music vid.
> Out on the surface Bran Foster died
> Shame, Tarrant, shame, but we all cried
Dev Tarrant, that is. Don't anyone try to fill in "Del" here. <g>
> It's for you, Roj etc.
> Days of swine and losses
<snort>
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:21:04 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change?
Message-ID: <286956666D8@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> > Techno-wizard? Hmmm...Now there's a thought - Avon as a technomage! They'd
> > have to give up the no-hair rule, though. (And which team would get him in
> > the cricket match?)
Not to sure about the hair. Have you *seen* Paul lately? I think he'd
make a great Technomage, JMS should sign him up.
> 'Fraid I can't get the credit/blame for this one. The idea came from a posting
> about the upcoming JMS series Crusade; the characters are apparently rather
> similar to the B7 crew, with the techno-mage approximating Avon, intersecting a
> comment from one of Keirsey's books about INTPs being scientists whose secret
> desire is to be wizards.... not even a tiny stretch, eh? But B7 gets him in the
> cricket match!
I have to agree with the 'desire to be wizards' part. I'd decorate my
room with sculls and crows and dribbly candles, but I'm afraid that
my mother would have me committed to an asylum.
Vick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:34:21 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
Message-ID: <286CF1240E4@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> > NTs dress like nerds. The only clothes in Liberator's locker in
> > Avon's size were sexy. Otherwise he'd have stayed with the prison
> > uniform, but it was beginning to stink.
> This is a horrid stereotype. What are NTs? Rational and practical. Is it
> practical to look like a nerd? No. Everyone sneers and laughs at you.
I was being funny actually, but I don't think that you got the joke.
If Avon was a nerd he'd wear cordroy flares, a Star Trek T-shirt, and
have his spectcles held together with gaffer tape.
Avon has the *best* dress sense on the show, so I know who's style
I'd emulate. I look good in black, white taffeta isn't practicle for
an everyday commuter.
Vick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:03:28 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast.
Message-ID: <7390e4f6.36d6b7c0@aol.com>
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Russ wrote:
> Or insulting Tarrant at a Tarrant Nostra meeting...
You've heard about our ritual executions then...
About Pella not objecting to Avon's kiss:
> Actually she might have perceived the act of objecting to be a tacit
> admission of weakness, and so avoided it. Not much point objecting
> unless you can back up your refusal to go along with some form of
> force that could cow Avon.
Ooohhh, I love that bit of insight. It works for me. Pella wasn't the type
who would want to show weakness before a "Hommick." And she didn't appear to
be enjoying the kiss or interested in Avon to me. Nor did Avon appear to be
seducing her and expecting her to enjoy it. I agree with Russ; it was an
intimidation attempt.
If anything, I thought Pella was more inclined to find Vila her type, if she
had a male type. She appeared to be genuinely amused by him. They had a cute
little rapport going, or so it seemed to me.
With Russ quoting Mistral:
> >compared to Tarrant's tepid scenes with Zeeona in Warlord. (Although I
> >quite
> >like Zeeona, and would have liked her as a permanent addition.)
> >
> Me too. He was a bit love-sick puppyish, wasn't he. Still maybe he
> turned into a growling love-beast once they were safely locked away
> from all witnesses.
Nah, Tarrant as a sex beast is an oxymoron.
I love his "tepid" scene with Zeeona. It's so...so...so Tarrant. The poor
dear is obviously starved for affection (and who wouldn't be when confined
with Avon, Vila, Dayna and Soolin :). It's absolutely adorable that Zeeona
practically has to clump him on the head with a club to make him realize that
she's "interested." It's another reminder that Tarrant didn't regard himself
as a sex-object, which I appreciate. There's nothing more appealing (for me)
than a drop dead gorgeous man who isn't aware that he's drop dead gorgeous.
Russ also tastefully wrote (in a different post):
> Well putting myself in a women's shoes (thigh-length leather boots
> with 3 inch heels to be precise) I'd have to find Tarrant the more
> attractive of the male characters. I think it's the sense that he's not
> constantly judging others and finding them wanting. And the curly
> hair
Yes! More brilliant Tarrant insight. Thanks, Russ.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:03:25 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <e56d5fa1.36d6b7bd@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Mistral wrote:
> I am not (Carol) saying that people cannot write and read whatever they
want.
I thought that was always clear in what you've said--that you were expressing
a personal opinion. One of the nice things about fanfic is there appears to
be something for everyone, minority and majority tastes alike.
> Mary-Sues seem a little exhibitionistic to me; they don't seem to consider
> the reader at all.
Mary-Sues aren't my choice, either, but there are fans who enjoy them and
appear to be able to vicariously appreciate Mary Sues written by other
authors. So there is an audience out there beyond the writer.
> What I was really trying
> to discover (not having bought any zines and about to take the plunge) was
> whether I was likely to wind up spending my limited funds on something that
> I wouldn't knowingly waste a cent on.
Which is entirely understandable, and my dominant practical side much
approves. As Sarah has often pointed out, members of both lists are more than
willing to help newbie fanfic readers find stories/zines to their tastes. If
you would want to share with the list what stories you've liked (and are
looking for more of the same), people with the same tastes will recognize the
pattern and point you in the right direction.
If you've not found it yet, there are links to many (all?) B7 fanfic sites on
Judith's web page, and that can direct you to some freebies to get you
started.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:12:26 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...)
Message-ID: <36D6B9D8.ADAA8142@ptinet.net>
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Hi, Russ. I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaack.
This conversation has been like trying to dance on quicksand <g>.
Notice, please, how the godmother of the Tarrant Nostra evilly tempted me in by
offering to lower Tarrant's scores, and than ran away to safety. <g>
I think I am answering question A), but then it turns into question B), which in
turn becomes C) when I respond to that one. <g> I am *not* accusing you of doing
it deliberately <g> although I have run into people who use that style almost
exclusively to discuss, because then, of course, one never has to concede
anything. <g>
I thought the quesion was relative sex appeal between Avon and Tarrant?
Which turned into self-awareness of it?
Which turned into use of it?
Which turned into effective use of it?
Which somehow turned into wanting to get something from use of it?
Which suddenly, for some reason, must draw a distinction between seduction and
power games? (Both uses of sex appeal, IMO)
Help!!!!!!!!!!!
To me those are all separate questions. I think I'm answering one, then you say
yes, but, you haven't answered the other one. You are too clever by half <g>.
What *exactly* is the definition of sex-appeal in Gurps again? (And isn't what we
were discussing?) I have a tendency to ramble; I'm sure everybody will be
appreciative as I learn to stay more on topic, but to do that, of course, you have
to know what the topic is. Call me clueless.
Tying off other things:
> >Since I know that like Vila, 'you are a clever man',
>
> You're just guessing. I might be an AI attempting to simulate a B7 fan.
What a waste. An AI should have better things to do than devaluing us by
compromising our rarity. Still, you have a point; some of your comments could tend
to make one wonder <g>.
> Probably most bad romance novel clich�s have a basis in fact (hey -
> you got an accent on the e - I'll have to try that). It doesn't mean that
> actively annoying someone is *always* going to get their glands
> flowing.
No, of course not. It does, however, have roughly the same effect of a couple of
plusses to the dice roll, and therefore should be considered accordingly.
> And aren't we at the evolutionary stage were our conscious
> forebrains can override these atavistic impulses?
Actually, no. But that's a whole 'nother argument. Let it suffice to say that the
impulses do in fact have to occur first; then you have to be *aware* of them
before your forebrain can take charge. Awareness is the weakest link in the chain.
A new situation is a new situation; you rarely know what to do. Being in the arms
of a man like Avon is a new situation for Pella; he's no Hommik. She decides
later, of course, that he's just like them; but I think, really, that having met
in such a way that they were not naturally on opposite sides, she might have
thought differently. I'm not suggesting that she would have fallen for him; merely
that Avon was quicker to take advantage of the situation than she was. Sexual
power games were nothing new to him, but they almost certainly were to her
(differentiating them, of course, from outright war between the sexes).
> I could say more, but I'm not subbed to the Other List.
>
> Well there's nothing specifically forbidden about discussing sex on this
> list. So go ahead - say more. I dare ya! Are you all talk. Are you
> someone who starts a subject and gets a topic all hot and flustered and
> than abandons it to a cold and lonely archive file. There's a name for
> posters like you! (Was that antagonistic enough to get you going :)
Sorry, Russ, not by half. You are too much a sensitive 90's kind of guy, whereas I
have been bullied and brutalized by the best of the atavistic tradition. I
consider Petruchio a romantic old softy, and Avon's practically a puppy. I love
the smell of testosterone in the morning. <grin>
===========
{<grits teeth> Exerts more self-control than she knew she had}
I *will* refrain from responding to your other comments about Pella and the Alien
until the 'quicksand effect' has been eliminated. <g>
Other things:
> I'm willing to say that you've half convinced me here. Avon responds
> best to women who challenge him (but does Anna fit that mould) and
> uses the same tactic himself.
Responds in kind, actually. Avon is IMHO, basically a gentleman. See the new
Avon/Vena thread for that argument. Anna, on the other hand, could swallow Avon
whole and spit his bones out to impale passersby. He is an amateur in every way to
her, when it comes to manipulation. He was only alive at the end of Rumors because
she was thinking, and he was so much on edge that he could do no more than react.
I am amused by all the fanfic I've seen that transforms her into some romantic
heroine. Anna Grant is a nasty piece of work who, IMO, was using the revolution to
set herself up in Servalan's place. And having said that, I should also say that
in some ways I admire her. Ha, ha, ha, but I have been brave this week!
> Eh? Vena is 'Muller's woman' isn't she? Have I been making coffee
> during crucial scenes again? I don't recall anything remotely
> scorching
Short answer: Anna was *married* to Chesku. Avon wouldn't care. See other thread.
> >1) Desperately Seeking Avon:
> Freed from the Federation, Avon starts to stretch his wings a bit. Freed from
> Blake, he really starts to fly! <g>
> >
> But most of the time he doesn't. He's never exactly a party animal,
> though you could make a case for Gambit being when he really lets his
> hair down and enjoy himself.
Opening up and becoming oneself does not mean becoming a party animal. Avon is an
introvert. But I don't think this is the real answer, just a one that could be
fleshed out plausibly.
> >2) On a Guilt Trip:
No, I don't believe it either. I do think he has guilt feelings, but I don't think
they're the motivating force at the beginning.
> >3) The Combination Plate (most common):
> More or less my own take on Avon.
<sigh> I'd have never expected you to take such a pedestrian view.
> >4) What Happens When You Give a Geek a Spaceship
> >What did you think was going to happen when geeky little Avon got his
> >hands on the most powerful ship in the galaxy?
> >
> LOL! Brilliant idea for a parody.
Why thank you <g>. I always knew those late nights at the labs, posing as a
nerd-groupie would pay off some day! Now if I could only do funny. Unhappily, I am
too nerdish myself to actually understand humor, let alone write it
(intentionally).
> >5) Male Mental-Pause:
> Avon begins to get in touch with the _Wild_Man_That_Is_Kerr_!
> >
> I'd go along with this except for one thing. He's not wild enough! He's
> always urging caution, complaining about the risks undertaken and
> generally being very careful with his own life.
Tries to tango with an asteroid? Goes to Malodar with a gun but no *bracelets*?
Walks into the slave camp himself, and alone? Goes to Terminal alone? Goes after
Shrinker, then Servalan? How many risks do you want him to take? And he gets
progressively zanier; usually associated with him cracking up, but could easily be
portrayed as a midlife passage by a competent writer. By Orbit, he's positively
loopy! Which I like, BTW. I've seen people complain about this, but I think it's a
deliberate attempt to remind us how much Avon and Vila really are friends, to
contrast it with the rather horrifying climax.
:( Actually, I'm rather disappointed by not getting even the tiniest groan for
Avon: A Terrible Aspic :(
Tarrant flirting:
> I seem to remember he gives Cally several appreciative glances in a
> few early episodes. I might be projecting :)
You are :)
Jenna in Breakdown:
> And she's very grumpy about being asked to 'prostitute' herself by
> Blake ISTR.
But she still does it. Hmmmm? Could that be construed as Blake using his own sex
appeal effectively on Jenna? Perhaps I should be looking for patterns of Blake
manipulating Jenna with her attraction to him? That *is* a Nasty thought.
> Phew! I'm glad I'm doing this at work, rather than eating into my
> quality time. Sorry - that came over rather rude. I'm enjoying the
> discussion - haven't posted so much for ages.
Not rude a bit. I've been enjoying it too, even if this much thinking is giving me
a headache. I myself have the tendency to be unaware that anything I've said could
be badly construed, and so have developed the tendency to apologise rather a lot,
which frequently annoys people. In consequence, I now have a habit of vacillating
between the unforgivably offensive and the obsequiously self-deprecatory. Without
actually ever being aware of either.
Pay no attention to the person behind the curtain; it's the curtain we're
discussing, eh?
Grins,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:07:54 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <36D6C6D9.64DEB98A@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mac4781@aol.com wrote:
> Mistral wrote:
>
> > What I was really trying
> > to discover (not having bought any zines and about to take the plunge) was
> > whether I was likely to wind up spending my limited funds on something that
> > I wouldn't knowingly waste a cent on.
>
> Which is entirely understandable, and my dominant practical side much
> approves. As Sarah has often pointed out, members of both lists are more than
> willing to help newbie fanfic readers find stories/zines to their tastes. If
> you would want to share with the list what stories you've liked (and are
> looking for more of the same), people with the same tastes will recognize the
> pattern and point you in the right direction.
>
> If you've not found it yet, there are links to many (all?) B7 fanfic sites on
> Judith's web page, and that can direct you to some freebies to get you
> started.
Yes Carol, thanx, I've found them; and of course they are marked adult and slash
where appropriate but I am willing to read just about anything gen except to
*unknowingly* read a Mary-Sue, which in fact I would also read if it had a good
story and I had a chance to erect some internal emotional walls first. Of course,
I could keep the walls up all the time; but that would pretty much make reading
fanfic pointless at all <g>.
What I really wanted to know was how common (proportionately) they are to the rest
of things *in zines*. Or whether, perhaps, there were simply some specific zines
to avoid. I phrased it badly, I know, and I'm sorry about starting the argument
between you and Neil. I haven't said so before now because I didn't want to add
fuel.
My taste in B7 fanfic is fairly catholic, although I would prefer to begin with
things that resemble episodes, and more humorous than dark -- just for starters; I
like dark too, but sometimes I have to be careful what I feed my brain; I'd like
to have nice things to read on hand first. Also I like short scenes of character
and relationship explorations/interactions. I suppose the most important thing to
me, really, is good characterizations, but I prefer it to be developed as a result
of events. Particularly, I'm fond of humor/parody, or events that fill in between
episodes, or expand on things hinted at in episodes. I would like to read some
PGP, but am beginning to infer that it is mostly depressing. Not that I want my B7
all treacly, either, but I've always viewed it as cynical and ironic rather than
hopeless and despairing, which some of the PGP stuff seems to be, and of course,
everybody on the list (she said, making a sweeping overgeneralization) seems to
think they all died on or shortly after GP, whereas I've always chosen to view it
pretty much as just another cliffhanger, and was relieved to read in Sheelagh
Wells' book that my resolution was pretty much like Chris Boucher's.
Characters I prefer: Blake-Jenna-Avon-Vila-Soolin, in no particular order; I like
the others too, just can't find much commonality with them. My favorite viewpoint
is a really well written Vila, he seems to notice things and have insights the
others wouldn't naturally have; also Soolin-- they both seem natural observers and
commenters on life.
I'm thinking of starting with the Bizarro, Cheeseboard, and Renaissance things; if
somebody could point me to a couple of more general things that might fit in with
what I've outlined, I'd be very appreciative.
My thanx for everybody's patience
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:49:35 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change?
Message-ID: <36D6D09F.178B@jps.net>
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VJC wrote:
>
> I have to agree with the 'desire to be wizards' part. I'd decorate my
> room with sculls and crows and dribbly candles, but I'm afraid that
> my mother would have me committed to an asylum.
Mmmm... beginning to wonder if this magic=science connection in the
Discworld books isn't one reason Pterry is so popular in this list.
BTW, I think it must be a 'P' trait to hit 'reply all' and give the
person your addressing 2 copies of all your emails instead of taking a
few seconds to fix the address. Or is it just plain apathy?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:20:24 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <19783f17.36d6c9c8@aol.com>
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I wrote:
"I took [the test] and am an INFP. The test was a lot of fun. Thanks.
> Now...does this mean I have a personality like Cally's?
And Avona replied:
"I see her as an INFJ. My husband is definitely an INFP.>
Does this mean that you think she is well organized? Well, okay, she is
probably that. When we first meet her, she is managing to exist on her own in
terrible conditions -- probably a sign of good organizational skills. She is
also very self-confident. I guess I just WISH I were like her. She always
acts with high ideals and is obviously very sincere and straightforward in her
actions -- not like Blake who has hidden agendas and is happy to manipulate
whoever to get what he "thinks" is right. This is true or Avon would have had
the same problem with her that he had with Blake.
For myself, I am have a little of the Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde in me. As a mom
and general person, I am pretty much an INFP, but as a student, I transform
into an INTP with tendencies toward the J. I get very competitive and my
thinking is generally more lateral. I actually like the Cally (INF) side of
me better and have worked at developing this for many years.
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:29:48 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change?
Message-ID: <36D6CBFC.1438A892@ptinet.net>
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> Mmmm... beginning to wonder if this magic=science connection in the
> Discworld books isn't one reason Pterry is so popular in this list.
Sure must! Remember your Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic."
Mistral <g>
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:24:15 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>] Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <61cc16dc.36d6caaf@aol.com>
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Betty wrote:
"I was recently playing around with a different personality test, the
Berkeley Personality Profile."
Thanks for your insights into Avon. Is there an Internet test for this
personality profile?
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:39:05 -0000
From: "Jonathan" <jonathan@meanwhile.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <Pherber@aol.com>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P?
Message-ID: <025b01be6280$a1214280$d424883e@ming>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Pherber@aol.com <Pherber@aol.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Date: Friday 26 February 1999 04:17
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P?
>In a message dated 2/25/99 2:23:22 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>csm80316@port.ac.uk writes:
>
><< How many people on this list actually vote for eack camp?
> Let's have a show of hands.
> >>
>I think he's INTP.
>
You want to vote, citizen ? Can't be putting enough Pylene-50 in the
water...
Jonathan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:39:32 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Avon & Vena (was Re:Allure...)
Message-ID: <36D6F873.73B16C87@ptinet.net>
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Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> I don't think I'd ever looked at it this way before, but after watching it
> again I think you're right.
Thanx for the support; or perhaps I should say, don't encourage me.
> He is rather more gentle with Vena than any other
> female, even Meegat. He does seem to want her to like him (or at least not
> dislike him) and behaves protectively toward her. It's subtle, but with Avon
> any unbending at all is unusual.
That's almost really the point; it seems to me that the subtlety indicates genuine
warmth and liking versus the somewhat more predatory approach he might use if he
were being -- well -- predatory. (I can't really see him leering at Anna when they
met, can you? Oh yes, and many people see an Avon/Cally connection -- remember in
the early eps, when he just looked quietly at her a lot? It makes what I'm
suggesting seem quite reasonable, IMHO.) Apart from which, Vena's involved with
somebody else, which requires delicacy, after all. Avon may not be an
interpersonal genius, but some things are obvious even to a socially dense
introverted nerd-turned-revolutionary privateer.
> Not to mention that he's looking sexier than usual, with his hair all tousled
> like that... <evil leer>
Noticed that, did you? Stop drooling. <g>
> Good call, Mistral
I congratulate you on your perceptiveness.<g>
Dont wear out your tape too fast. <g>
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:03:06 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <jihorner@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games etc.
Message-ID: <000201be61c3$4b8559a0$0a4595c1@orac>
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-----Original Message-----
From: mistral@ptinet.net <mistral@ptinet.net> (replying to J Horner)
>> All I recall is a knowing snigger when she said that her relationship
>> with Muller is purely recreational.
>Heh, heh, heh. I knew I was going to get some flack on this.
>I am _not_ imagining things.
<snip>
>said 'snigger' (which I interpret quite differently) notwithstanding.
> Go watch it again, and see how he almost never takes his eyes off >of her.
Right. This afternoon I took advantage of it being my day off and
of the infant taking an unexpected but welcome sleep and I *did*
watch it again.
First of all my apologoes for misleading the house - I misremembered a bit
of dialogue. It was Avon who kindly supplied the word "recreational" when
she was groping to find a suitable expression to
describe her relationship with Muller. And as to the snigger, well, it was
nothing so vulgar as a snigger - more of a lovely wrinkly-eyed smile.
That apart - I still could find nothing suggestive of Avon raising his
hopes at this stage. His body language just doesn't indicate anything and
they are sitting right at opposite ends of the sofa.
>Notice how inadequate he appears to feel because he doesn't know >how to
comfort her.
No I don't think he feels inadequate. He goes to comfort her but when she
turns away I don't think it is a personal snub, she is just in shock. I
thought he looked slightly irritated but I interpreted that as annoyance
with Tarrant and Vila for cocking things up. He wants Soolin to comfort her,
but I think that would be a natural response for many men. If they see a
woman in distress they assume another woman will be better at dealing with
it.
>Look at how he takes the risk of going up to Scorpio - pretty
>much just in order to make her feel better - he didn't appear to think
>Muller had much chance of still being alive. Think about how he >pulled a
gun on Muller to protect her
Yes I am with you there. He does look genuinely distressed when he
has to tell her that Muller has been left behind on Scorpio and I think you
are right that he takes her up to Scorpio because he feels sorry for her.
Other people have said that basically Avon is a gentleman. When a woman is
not threatening him or playing power games he is genuinely chivalrous. I
agree with that and I think that that is all that is going on here with
Vena. Good old fashioned chivalry - and I promise you, this afternoon I
played over the relevant scenes two or three times to make sure no nuances
escaped me and it still don't smoulder to me!
Julie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:02:51 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Message-ID: <36D7281B.1C8DEDE4@ptinet.net>
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> Vena knows where Xenon base is. Once there, she must stay
> > or die. No other safe, rational option.
> I can't remember, did she go there on her own or was she brought? Did
> they say? If she didn't navigate the way herself, she probably couldn't
> give anyone enough info for them to find it.
You're right, it just always looks to me like basic piloting skills
(with
computer assistance) and astronavigation are to these people about like
driving a
car to us. Perhaps, though, they blindfolded her and wiped the
navigation logs.
Goody.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:48:50 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Message-ID: <36D724D2.E2B44079@ptinet.net>
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Avona wrote:
> Replying, in fact, to a different post, but trying to clarify for
> Tramila what makes Introverts interact with people differently than
> extroverts do.
> I am a lateral thinker, and a linear expresser. I jump from base to
> base, corelating the points of thought until I can turn them into
> something logical. But the actual thinking is pretty lateral.
Very much so. INTx hate to be misunderstood, therefore are very careful verbally,
trying to order thoughts so they will be well recieved by a predominately ES world.
My ESFJ ex used to get angry if I wanted to think about something before saying it
-- he always seemed to think I was trying to dream up some lie, because he always
said the first thing that came into his head -- whereas, if I did that, it wouldn't
necessarily have anything to do with my actual opinion.
> The conversational depth as noted on lists, I believe also applies o
> real life. I's do not make light conversation easily. We prefer to go
> in-depth. We tend to take interacting with other people seriously. That
> makes us guarded until we trust, then, once we trust, we are very honest
> and not at all superficial.
> Why are we guarded at first? Knowlege is power, for one thing. The more
> people know about us, the more they can try to influence us.
I feel Avona is being very kind and careful here. Perhaps for the sake of ESs
reading I should add another spin; for influence read: control, manipulate, hurt.
(Being careful to say that I am not trying to speak for Avona.)
> For another, we are aware this is not our strong suit, and we have to
> _work_ to answer questions like, "Enjoying the weather?" and "How's the
> family?" I percieve, and I think other INT's do, that these questions
> tend to be phony, resent having to answer questions where the answer is
> irrelevant, don't want the resentment to show, try to follow etiquette,
> fight urge to give meaningful answer, etc. Whereas you probably just
> automatically say "Fine" and are glad someone asked.
I'll go beyond that. When someone asks me one of those questions, I feel as if I'm
being asked to lie, and that irritates me, as an honest NT. I don't *ask* people
those things unless I want to know, but the awareness that most people really
*don't* want to know forces me to be constantly coming up with ways to answer
trivial questions in ways that satisfy my desire to be honest without being
offensive or boring to the asker.
I try to remember to say What's up? or What's new?, so that people can get straight
to anything they want to say.
But, (Tramila and other non-INTxs), this list would be dull without you. Stick
around.
<bounce> <bounce> <bounce>
==================
Hey Tramila! I bounced in public!
Grins,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:33:23 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <19990227093323.02432@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:07:54AM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> What I really wanted to know was how common (proportionately) they are
> to the rest of things *in zines*. Or whether, perhaps, there were
> simply some specific zines to avoid. I phrased it badly, I know, and
> I'm sorry about starting the argument between you and Neil. I haven't
> said so before now because I didn't want to add fuel.
Mary-Sues haven't been that common in my readings; maybe they are more
common in US zines? But not the best ones.
> My taste in B7 fanfic is fairly catholic, although I would prefer to
> begin with things that resemble episodes, and more humorous than dark
> -- just for starters; I like dark too, but sometimes I have to be
> careful what I feed my brain; I'd like to have nice things to read on
> hand first. Also I like short scenes of character and relationship
> explorations/interactions. I suppose the most important thing to me,
> really, is good characterizations, but I prefer it to be developed as
> a result of events.
> Particularly, I'm fond of humor/parody,
Bizzaro, definitely. I'm not that fond of humour/parody, preferring
wit to strident satire, but I enjoyed these. I didn't get the Bizzaro
zine, but I read the occasional one in _Southern Seven_, where they
first appeared.
> I would like to read some PGP, but am beginning to infer
> that it is mostly depressing. Not that I want my B7 all treacly,
> either, but I've always viewed it as cynical and ironic rather than
> hopeless and despairing, which some of the PGP stuff seems to be, and
> of course, everybody on the list (she said, making a sweeping
> overgeneralization) seems to think they all died on or shortly after
> GP, whereas I've always chosen to view it pretty much as just another
> cliffhanger, and was relieved to read in Sheelagh Wells' book that my
> resolution was pretty much like Chris Boucher's.
The irony of PGP stories is that, even though most people may believe
that they all died, most PGPs act on the assumption that they didn't.
(See my little bit of research that I did several years ago into about
120 PGP stories, counting up who died and who didn't. It's on my web
page http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat/b7/b7.htm)
The reason for this, IMHO, is that if they're all dead, you can't
really write a *story* about it, so very few of the stories that exist
have them all dead. A few do, and they tend to be ghost stories or
Blake's 7-the-next-generation stories. The most despairing sort of
PGPs tend to be those who have Avon as the only survivor; lets face
it, it would be terribly depressing and despairing for him to be in
that situation. The more survivors, the more optimistic it tends to
be, though then you fall into the formula plot of "let's restore the
status-quo"; Our Heros (some of them) escape and steal a ship and go
off and have more adventures. Not to say that all of those type of
PGP are boring.
My favourite PGP is Ana Dorfstad's "The Pattern of Infinity", which
was in the _Enarrare' Blake's 7 Special_ (the big black zine).
Unfortunately, I think it's out of print, you may have to seek a
second-hand copy. The story is huge, in three parts, and excellent.
Definitely not a formula story.
> Characters I prefer: Blake-Jenna-Avon-Vila-Soolin, in no particular
> order;
> I'm thinking of starting with the Bizarro, Cheeseboard, and
> Renaissance things; if somebody could point me to a couple of more
> general things that might fit in with what I've outlined, I'd be very
> appreciative.
Let's see. _The Machiavelli Factor_ has excellent Blake-Avon stuff.
It's also a one-story zine, so you can sink your teeth into it.
_The Road to Hell and Other Stories_ is excellent, a "best of" Suzanne
Lovett, whom I hadn't known could write as well as she can draw.
If you want something optimistic, try _Jabberwocky_, which Judith
Proctor has re-issued in about four volumes (it was a very long
series!). I read that when I need cheering up.
Short stories and vigniettes are mixed up together in general
anthology zines (which are more common than one-story zines,
considering most fen write short stories rather than long ones).
These of course will be mixed, in quality, style and who they
concentrate on, but I would reccommend:
_Horizon_
_Star One_, (Two, Three...)
_Down & Unsafe_
the later _Gambit_s
_Southern Seven_
And that's certainly enough to start with!
If you have more eclectic tastes and like other fandoms besides
Blake's 7, you can try mixed Media zines. I highly reccommend
_Enarrare'_ and I have to put in a plug for _Refractions_ considering
I'm its editor and therefore I *must* like everything in it...
The Refractions web page is:
http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat/refract.htm
And the Enarrare' web page is:
http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat/enarrare/enarrare.htm
Kathryn Andersen
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #84
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