Newsgroups: alt.divination From: Llarian@debug.cuc.ab.ca Subject: re:the devil Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 15:06:34 GMT people tend to think of things in terms of black and white. the devil in modern times has almost always been regarded as depicting immoral or amoral behavior of some kind. seen as a pre-christian archtype, the meaning of the card has nothing to do with moral or immoral. the devil is a card that simply reflects all of the most baisic emotions in man (all of which are emotions that the church and christianity in general sees as evil-hence the use of the devil in the first place). remember that we are all animals at heart, and the card of the devil reflects those animal instincts......lust (the need to procreate), fear/violence (the survival instinct--the church has always maintained that if you believe in god, you should never feel fear), drive (the drive for money, love, power...fill in a blank--the church has always said that god will always provide what we need, therefore we should never "desire" anything, regardless of the fact that it is human nature to try to improve our lot). look at some of the most bace emotions that we, as humans have, and you will find the meaning of the devil. live long and prosper Llarian === From: tyagI@houseofkaos.Abyss.coM (tyagi mordred nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.divination,alt.magick.tyagi Date: 2 Aug 1994 07:52:19 GMT rjbrooks@uoguelph.ca (Ron J Brooks) writes: >Can anyone tell me about the preChristian symbolism of this card? The tarot does not predate Christianity. If you are speaking of the symbol of the Devil, this also does not predate Christianity. If you are speaking of the Horned God, then you can find this in very many preChristian religions, including that of the Celts (e.g. Cernunnos, Pan, et al) and Indians (e.g. Rudra => proto-Siva). If you mean the more gnostic elements of the card, then see gnosticism and its content regarding the Demiurgos and Archons. You might also check out the Hermetic mages and their reverence for Baphomet, an apparent fabrication, pictorally, of Eliphas Levi. There is some mention of Baphomet previous to Levi, but I'm not sure that this is very reliable (Templars, others). The Devil is the most important card in your tarot, as I see it. Most often it illustrates the relationship we have with matter/mater/earth. The Waite-Smith deck is quite a Christo-gnostic matter-hating perspective, though it leaves the issue open for question as it may also imply a kind of deception, joke or illusion (as the chains could easily be removed). >Is it not amoral rather than immoral?... Yes. It illustrates a principle of human experience, as do all the Major Arcana. The tarot is not specifically moral (well, the respectable decks aren't anyway). >a symbol of unreasoning instinct rather than evil or temptation? Instinct is good, yes. Aesthetic, sensuality, nerve endings. The body. > It comes up rather frequently in my spreads and I am totally > unsatisfied with the interpretations given in most texts. Most texts are conditioned by the repressive, body-hating, ascetic esoteric traditions rampant and unchecked. Check out Crowley's _Book of Thoth_ for a decent review of the Devil. Pagels does a good job also, from her apparent Jungianism. In readings it may point to the relationship with base-instincts, body relation to the other aspects of the individual, sensuality and its role in life, etc. My typical statement is that cards mean what you want them to. This goes for me too. I choose the above because I get something out of doing so. ;> tyagi tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com === Newsgroups: alt.divination,alt.magick.tyagi From: key@netcom.com (peter li'ir key) Subject: Re: The Devil Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 20:00:46 GMT [...] as for the card 'the devil' i generally consider it to be things that hinder a person. this hinderance can be spiritual, moral, immoral, noble, material, or what ever. usually something one is unwilling to face. peter li'ir key key@netcom.com === From: hinckley@pipeline.com (Kathey Hinckley) Newsgroups: alt.divination Date: 8 Aug 1994 02:16:52 -0400 [Quoting the above article.] Thank you! I usually see this card as someone's guilt or other erroneous attitudes that impede their vision and cloud their judgment. That can be repressive sexual attitudes that keep them from being happy, but also emotional denial of every variety, and it's usually much more painful to maintain than to release. E.g., in a spread indicating a relationship, in a position denoting others' influence or position, The Devil could mean the families are opposed to a marriage on classist or pseudo-moral grounds. In a spread about career issues, it could mean someone's self-doubts about their competence, especially that vague, unspecific suspicion of "not being good enough" that keeps people from reaching. Sure, you could get more esoteric about it, but you also need to know how that translates into a here-and-now, down in the mud spread. -- Kate in NYC