From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 11:14:53 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17052; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:14:53 -0400 Received: from kantti.Helsinki.FI by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16956; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:14:48 -0400 Received: from katk.helsinki.fi (katk.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.2]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id SAA03693 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:14:38 +0300 Received: from KATK/SpoolDir by katk.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 20 Sep 95 18:16:45 EET Received: from SpoolDir by KATK (Mercury 1.21); 20 Sep 95 18:16:17 EET From: "Morteza Elmolhoda" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:16:09 EET DST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: ***Tariqa Muhammdiyya????**** X-Confirm-Reading-To: morteza.elmolhoda@helsinki.fi Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: <1E8F44C20@katk.helsinki.fi> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear members of "Tariqas" Assalaamu Alaikum va Rahmatullah va Barakaatuh Could anyone provide me with some information about the Tariqa Muhammadiyya? What is the lineage of this tariqa? Who is it's present Grand Sheikh? And, is there any book or article written about it? Thanks in advance. peace Morteza From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 04:46:02 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25432; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:47:34 -0400 Received: from mailhub.cc.columbia.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25394; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:47:29 -0400 Received: from [128.59.228.37] (phl508a012a.english.columbia.edu) by mailhub.cc.columbia.edu with SMTP id AA25138 (5.65c+CU/IDA-1.4.4/HLK for ); Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:47:22 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:46:02 PDT From: Zaineb Subject: Re: ***Tariqa Muhammdiyya????**** To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Sender: zi1@mailhub.cc.columbia.edu In-Reply-To: <1E8F44C20@katk.helsinki.fi> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah. Are not all turuq "tariqa Muhammadiyya"? This is my understanding. Wassalam, Zaineb On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Morteza Elmolhoda wrote: > > > Dear members of "Tariqas" > > Assalaamu Alaikum va Rahmatullah va Barakaatuh > Could anyone provide me with some information about the Tariqa > Muhammadiyya? What is the lineage of this tariqa? Who is it's present > Grand Sheikh? And, is there any book or article written about it? > Thanks in advance. > > peace > Morteza > > > From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 10:43:38 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28088; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:43:40 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28060; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:43:38 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23799 for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:43:38 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:43:38 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950920144336_104310249@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: beit ul ma'mour Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Fouad, thank you very sincerely for the information on this term. It helps my understanding. with respect. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 05:28:42 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29481; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:28:12 -0400 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29387; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:28:08 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME ([204.94.232.136]) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA09386 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:28:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199509201928.AA09386@diamond.sierra.net> X-Sender: frank@sierra.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:28:42 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: frank@sierra.net (Tanzen Frank Gaude) Subject: Re: QQ re Sufi practice & re technology Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Love, harmony, and beauty! Aaah! >There is no virtue in truth which has no beauty. A voice from the wilderness! Thank you, dear sweet Jinavamsa! RUMI, "Fountain of Fire: A Celebration of Life and Love", translated from the original Persian (Diwan-i Shams-i Tabrizi, the Furuzanfar's 10th Persian edition) by Nader Khalili. (Nader Khalili, internationally renowned architect, artist, author and teacher is the founder of California Institute of Earth Art and Architecture. He lives in Hesperia, California.) IF YOUR BELOVED has the life of a fire step in now and burn along in a night full of suffering and darkness be a candle spreading light till dawn stop this useless argument and disharmony show your sweetness and accord even if you feel torn to pieces sew yourself new clothes your body and soul will surely feel the joy when you simply go along learn this lesson from lute tambourine and trumpet learn the harmony of the musicians if one is playing a wrong note even among twenty others will stray out of tune don't say what is the use of me alone being peaceful when everyone is fighting you're not one you're a thousand just light your lantern since one live flame is better than a thousand dead souls ghazal number 1197, translated January 18, 1992 Also my the same lover of The Beloved: "What do you suggest, O Moslems!, for I do not recognize myself I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Moslem I am not of the East, nor West, nor of the land, nor of the sea I am not of Nature's mine, nor of the circling heavens I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin I am not of the kingdom of Iraq, nor of the land of Khorasan" Peace in the coming seconds, days, years, eons, Tanzen at Lake Tahoe From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 10:48:27 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00479; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:48:36 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00453; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:48:34 -0400 Received: from muphnx10 (muphnx10.phlab.missouri.edu [128.206.115.20]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA27912 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:48:29 -0500 From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199509202048.PAA27912@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by muphnx10 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA03044; Wed, 20 Sep 95 15:48:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 15:48:27 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Please answer! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamo alaikum wa rahmat Allah, I don't know if some of the brothers/sisters understood the poit that brother Omar was trying to make. Essentially, what he asking was this: why is there so many divisions amongst the Muslims, if we are indeed the people on the True Path? Why is it that everything that we say, about our unity, our love for one another and all humanity, etc, why is that not manifested? Bringing up the comparison with those that are outside and opponents of the Truth was done to illustrate our differences. Why is the Mulsim League not working as smoothly as the UN? There are unities amongst us, and unity amongst themselves, but they are a lot closer to each other, then Muslims are to other Muslims. I think, and Allah knows best, that this is what Brother Omar was asking. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 20:12:54 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08046; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:21:23 -0400 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08012; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:21:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA20784; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:21:15 +1000 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:12:54 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: Please answer! To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199509202048.PAA27912@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jawad Qureshi wrote: > I don't know if some of the brothers/sisters understood the poit that > brother Omar was trying to make. Essentially, what he asking was > this: why is there so many divisions amongst the Muslims, if we are > indeed the people on the True Path? The Qur'an, I think, gives us the answer. The Qur'an mentions that among the Muslims are the Hypocrites, those who pretend sincerity in religion, but it isn't really in their hearts. One can often especially see it in an obvious way with some politicians, who purposely manipulate religious sentiment to get votes, but in their other actions the demonstrate just how "sincere" they really are. How can we expect Hypocrites to cooperate in brotherly and sisterly love? It is impossible. Allah does not care about our claims and the labels we give ourselves, but by what is in our hearts. It is what is in the hearts of the Muslim Ummah that causes the problem, Allah knows best. It is in our best interest, both those of us here who are Muslims and those who are not, to spend time with those who do have sincerity in their hearts. This is the teaching of both the Sufis and of the Prophet, may Allah's blessings and peace be with him. It is also mentioned in the Qur'an (See 4:140, where it says not to sit with those who ridicule God, unless they turn to saying something else). Alhamdulillah, we have this mailing list, which in cyberspace is a circle of sincere men and women that serves this function :) Salam, Fred Rice From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 17:20:29 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06093; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 23:20:34 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06047; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 23:20:32 -0400 Received: from muphnx4 (muphnx4.phlab.missouri.edu [128.206.115.14]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA01123 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:20:31 -0500 From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199509210320.WAA01123@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by muphnx4 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA02322; Wed, 20 Sep 95 22:20:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 22:20:29 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Please answer! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salam, This is what a particular scholar had to say: The agreement among the people of misguidance is on account of their abasement, and the dispute among the people of guidance is on account of their dignity. That is to say that the people of neglect - those misguided ones sunk in worldly concerns - are weak and abased because they do not rely on truth and reality. On account of their abasement, they need to augment their strength, and because of this need they wholeheartedly embrace the aid and cooperations of others. Even though the path they follow is misguidance, they preserve their agreement. It is as if they were making godlessness into a form of worship of the truth, their misguidance into a form of sincerity, their religion into a form of solidarity, and their hypocrisy into concord, and thus attaining sucess. For genuine sincerity, even for the sake of evil, cannot fail to yield results, and whatever man seeks with sincerity, God will grant him. [Yes, "Whoever seeks ernestly shall find," is a rule of Truth. Its scope is comprehensive and includes the matter under discussion.] But as for the people of guidance and religion, the scholars, and those who follow the Path, since they rely upon truth and reality, and each of them on the road of truth thinks only of his Lord and trusts His succor, the derive dignity from their belief. When they feel weakness, they turn not toward men, but toward God and seek help from Him. On account of difference in outlook, they feel no real need for the aid of the one whose outlook apparently opposes their own, and see no need for agreement and unity. Indeed, if obstinacy and egoism are present, one will imagine himself to be right and the other to be wrong; discord and rivalry take the place of concord and love. Thus, sincerity is chased away and its function disrupted. Now, the only remedy for the critical consequences of this awesome state consist of nine commands: 1. To act positively, that is, out of love for one's own outlook, avoiding enmity for other outlooks, not criticizing them, interferring in their beliefs and sciences, or in any way concerning oneself with them. 2. To unite within the fold of Islam, orrespective of particular outlook, remembering those numerous ties of unity that evoke love, brotherhood and concord. 3. To adopt the just rule of conduct that the follower of any right outlook has the right to say, "My outlook is true, or the best," but not that, "My outlook alone is true," or that, "My outlook alone is good," thus implying the falsity or repougnance of all other outlooks. 4. To consider that union with the people of truth is a cause of Divine succor and the high dignity of religion. 5. To realize that the individual resistance of the most powerful person against the attacks through its genius of the mighty joint and collective force of the people of misguidace ad falsehood, which is in the form of a community and arises from their solidarity, will inevitably be defeated, and through the union of the people of truth, to create a joint and collective force also, in order to preserve justice and right in the face of that fearsome collective force of misguidance. 6. In order to preserve truth from the assaults of falsehood, 7. To abandon the self and its egoism, 8. And give up the mistaken concept of self-pride, 9. and cease from allinsignificant feelings aroused by rivalry. If this ninefold rule is adherred to, sincerity will be preserved and its function perfectly performed. Any replies/thoughts/ideas would be greatly appreciated. I would recommend reading this, printing it out, going home, and then read it again, and then think about it seriously. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 20:28:07 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23195; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:28:19 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23168; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:28:17 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA14934 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:28:07 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:28:07 -0400 From: Abdlqadir@aol.com Message-Id: <950921002537_25055821@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: How Intelligent Should 1 Be? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: As to the question <> I offer the following: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- >From al-Qur'an al-Karim: "The worst creatures before God are the deaf and dumb: those who do not use their reason" [8:22]. 2) From the Prophet (SA): "The search for knowledge is incumbent upon every Muslim man and woman" (in Sunan Ibn Majab) 3) From the "Succour of the Age," Abdl-Qadir al-Jilani (QS): <> 4) From the first Rep. to the U..N. from Pakistan: "Islam makes the comprehension and interpretation of its Law dependent on the individual's knowledge and conscience alone and does not force him to accept interpretations by any other individual or organized body as morally binding" (in The Principles of State and Government in Islam: Muhammad Asad, Gibraltar: Dar Al-Andalus, 1987, p. 20) Asalumu Alaykum From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 20:32:05 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29369; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:32:11 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29337; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:32:09 -0400 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA03596 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:32:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:32:05 -0400 From: Abdlqadir@aol.com Message-Id: <950921002542_25055872@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Revisioning Islam #3 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: For the past month, I've noticed with some degree of dismay how the current dialogue concerning Sufism and Islam has proceeded (throughout this and other networks). A great deal of acrimonious, polemical discourse has taken place, but little of it has clarified the basic topic of Sufism and its relationship to Islam. As far as Sufism's relationship to official Islam is concerned -- Sufism's actual history indicates that many of its greatest exemplars placed greater or lesser emphasis on sociological expressions of Islam, given the necessities of time and place. In my own experience, it is absolutely true that Sufism is an expression, or <> of Islam, but which Islam? The Prophet Muhammad (SA) himself has said: <> (narrated by Al-Darimi, Riqaq, 42). We, as literal <> to Islam may need to rediscover it in its essential or core aspects. We can only do so by becomming educated, both intellectually and experientially in both Islam and Sufism, because the latter -- as history also shows -- was the primary conveyer of traditional Islam until recent times. For example all of the great madhahib (schools of law) were, themselves formulated by scholars who were practicing sufis. It does not seem to me, however, that sufis in America and others in an emmerging global enviroment must limit themselves to interpretations (or interpreters) of the law whose edicts fit a different time and place. As suggested by Fazlur Rahman in Islam and Modernity (Chicago University Press, 1982), new ways of thinking about the sharia (religious law) must, and will, immerge to suit the needs of the time. In the meanwhile several things should be borne in mind: 1) relatively modern movements to *reform* Islam have often twisted the latter into a fanatical (but unfortunately newsworthy) perversion of traditional values, which were far more lenient and flexible. 2) During the formative period of the Prophet's tenure in Medina, it took nearly thirty years for his companions to adjust to a graduated series of laws which eventually came to govern his community. In other words, the sharia was not imposed overnight and without thought to prior existing conditions in Medina, or later, for that matter, elsewhere. 3) As Islam spread (particularly in Africa and Asia), local inhabitants were gently encouraged to incrementally adapt to laws which would only make sense as those people progressively practiced the rudiments of Islam (and Sufism). In the meanwhile, the law *also adapted to them*, contrary to modern attempts to impose the entire body of, correctly or incorrectly, interpreted laws to converts today in their totality. 4) Those who accept the Akbarian approach of Ibn Arabi, might also consider his dictate that only a wali (saint) of Sufism could have the capacity to interpret the law for a given community (see M. Chodkiewicz's excellent study, An Ocean Without Shore; Ibn Arabi, the Book, and the Law, SUNY Pr., 1993). 5) It is both a traditional and presently accepted fact that Shuyuk (pl. of Shaykh) in organized and authentic turuq (pl of tariqa, or "order") interpret the law for their followers as those laws apply to the corresponding "inner" and "outer" capacities of those students and their enviromental necessities. This should not be taken to mean that the fundamental laws of Islam are *aborogated* by modern shaykhs. 6) As I have personally experienced, what matters most to those shuyuk (when mature) is not some inflexible application of *the letter of the law,* but rather adherance to the *spirit of the law* as it can be skillfully applied to present-day conditions. 7) There is by *no means* unanimity among the various shuyuk as to which elements of the law are immutable, and which are contextual and relative, with the exception (perhaps) of moral injunctions which are similar to the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandmants. 8) For practical purposes, no Sufi (whether <> or not) could follow the Path if they did not adhere to the above commandmants, though errors do occur and are usually forgiven (often, in practice, repeatedly). What all of this means is that non-muslim aspirants to Islamic- Sufism need not feel over-burdened with the often incorrect (and often under-educated) edicts of muslims who wish to foist upon them *their* interpretation of Islamic law practices. In short, if you wish to follow an "orthopractic" form of Sufism, ask the shaykh of that Order what he or she requires of you, then decide to follow him (or her) or not. As for actually understanding, let alone debating about Sufism -- This means choosing (and actually practicing) one of the many paths directed by Sufi gnostics, all of whom trace their spiritual lineage back to the Prophet Muhammad (SA) -- and this (including Idries Shah) is the case without exception, at least as avowed by those teachers themselves. Endless discourse on *whether or not* Idries Shah, Hazrat Inayat Khan, etc, et al. are "authentic sufis" seems useless and, in some instances, exceptionally acrimonious. As for myself, it seems obvious that Idries Shah, Hz. Inayat Khan, Sh. Nazim, and others have all expressed some (if not all) aspects of geniune Sufism in their teachings. As we learn more about the Tradition as a whole, we might prefer one teacher over an other at any given time -- but to disclaim any of them as "inauthentic" seems arrogant and presumptuous. One should, however, question whether a particular teacher or teaching is conveying the fullest possible rendering of Sufism, or whether such a teaching is simplistically abridging the essentials of Sufism, or even apparently re-directing the Tradition to other ends if it seems necessary to do so. Of course, unreasonable, rude, or combative discourse, has no place in such an inquiry if it is to remain spiritually pure. Once again, the Qur'an informs us: The goal of you all is to God. Then *will He* inform you of that wherein you differed (V, 51), Asalamu Alaykum From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 20:46:42 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04535; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:46:44 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04523; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:46:43 -0400 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA13214 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:46:42 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:46:42 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950921004550_104822460@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: QQ re Sufi practice & re technology Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Tanzen, In a message dated 95-09-20 15:29:23 EDT, you send two poems, the secon follows; I have saved the file: >Also my the same lover of The Beloved: > >"What do you suggest, O Moslems!, for I do not recognize myself > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Moslem > I am not of the East, nor West, nor of the land, nor of the sea > I am not of Nature's mine, nor of the circling heavens > I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin > I am not of the kingdom of Iraq, nor of the land of Khorasan" > > thank you. I do not find the ghazal in my own present source (Odes Mystiques, which runs to less than 1100 sections), and I have read the above somewhere but don't remember. thank you for reminding me of it. Bulgaria: was that connected with the roots of the Cathars? or is there another reference meant? (Saqsin=?) ... questions! in peace, JInavamsa From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 04:56:36 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03469; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 04:56:36 -0400 Received: from carmen.logica.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03460; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 04:56:34 -0400 Received: from smtpmail.logica.com (mssmtp.logica.com [158.234.8.102]) by carmen.logica.co.uk (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id JAA26982 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:56:46 +0100 (BST) Received: by smtpmail.logica.com with Microsoft Mail id <306136CE@smtpmail.logica.com>; Thu, 21 Sep 95 09:56:30 bst From: Otersen Mathias To: "'tariqasmail'" Subject: Intelligence... Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 10:51:00 bst Message-Id: <306136CE@smtpmail.logica.com> Encoding: 25 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: One shouldn't confuse "using one's intelligence" with "relying on one's intelligence". Of course it's important to use one's brain where one can, but logical deduction will in the end only lead to more logical deductions. Western Philosophy heavily based on Logic hasn't succeeded in finding a solid base for one's existence. In fact, it has just lead to nihilism and atheism. The power of sufism is that it starts where logic subcedes, namely the mystic knowledge of GOD. Something that can only be experienced, but cannot be explained. I have to confess that the basis of sufism "Islam" is a very unlikely starting place for the development that sufism is. Islam is based on the strict following of rules and sayings that are seen as unfailing (Ko'ran, Sha'ria and Hadiths), while sufism asserts that while these are ofcourse "right", their importance lies in their underlaying truth (a quite modern thought, if I may say so.....). If I may say so: Nowadays the doctrin within Islam gets more attention than the one it should serve... Wa salaam, Matthias Otersen From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 13:57:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19404; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:06:36 -0400 Received: from disperse.demon.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19368; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:06:33 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by disperse.demon.co.uk id aa26037; 21 Sep 95 12:59 +0100 Received: from amwal.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa01164; 21 Sep 95 12:56 +0100 X-Sender: (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:57:28 +0100 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: Hussein Ahmes Khalifa Subject: Demonization and division Message-Id: <9509211256.aa01164@post.demon.co.uk> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salam, This group and Musims generally have spent much time recently questioning the divisions within their own religion (inter-sect eg. Sunni/Shia; inter-madhab eg. Maliki/Hanbali-Wahabi; and inter-tariqa eg. Naqshbandiya/Chistiya etc. etc.) The Prophet (SA) said that the greatness of our religion lay in the diversity of views among Muslims. Unfortunately it seems to have= gotten out of hand. My own humble reflections on this are based on my own limited experience so pls excuse me if I give offence to anyone. Muslim unity is regarded by many Muslims as a chimera, an illusion,= but it is this very illusion that threatens and discriminates against most= of us vis a vis the West. To many in Europe and the States we are a united= force of unreason of maniacal dogma trying to destroy their very civilization. This is confirmed by the unrestrained rantings and death threats= from Iran, Gaza and even Bradford in the UK that make up part of the daily does= of Islam presented by the media. The West's delay in dealing with the= Bosnia problem is a manifestation of those very fears. It is easy for us= to condemn them but then Islamic action on Bosnia has hardly been as= effective as it might have. The truth is that most of us feel outraged because= those who believe in what we do are being persecuted and oppressed because= of their beliefs and descent. The Holocaust more than anything else= taught the Jews what it meant to be a people. The broader lesson from that tragedy= is something most of us have neglected despite the constant reminders= on TV, film and in magazines.=20 Perhaps we should ask ourselves what it means to be Muslim and take= it from there. Basically it means submission to Allah and recognition of= Mohamed as his Prophet. The tariqas teach us that submission may come from fear, expectation of reward or most sincerely from love. This seems IMHO= to be the essence of Islam, religion at its most fundamental level. Correct= me if I am wrong but is there any scope for dissent at this stage? Problems= arise from interpretation of the Koran and the Ahadith. Now I was taught= that while Allah sent down numerous prophets to every people (Yunus xlvii)= each revelation was for a particular place and time. The Koran on the= other hand was eternal and for all mankind. Does this not mean that this revelation could and should be interpreted dynamically within the context of= our times and situation? It seems that the quarrels between us have been centered= on (relative) irrelevancies which more often than not emphasize cultural differences between us. These differences deep down contrast us more= than any other, which perhaps is natural. Our mistake is to let these differences enter into religion. Any Muslim in a cosmopolitan city= with several different Islamic communities will notice that each friday= prayer has a certain flavour. That Bengalis go to one while Arabs go to= others is natural due to language differences but more interesting is the fact= that in a two mile radius in central London there are some ten (minimum)= jumma prayers, divided along nationality lines. Saudis will congregate= together at Saudi Embassy prayers while Egyptians will go to the Cultural= Centre prayers, each going to the familiar. Many have told me that they= feel more comfortable with their own. Even in the Middle East mosques reflect= not so much geographical community but rather social and political allegiances despite state-mandated khutbas. The West sees us as a potential threat to their civilization, but= whom are they looking at? They assume that our leaders represent us and that= their viewpoints are that of the country. The threat is that we are waging= a Holy War (their literal interpretation of jihad) to destroy them. Why= do we want to do that? Actually the majority of Muslims in their own countries= are shamefully undereducated and hardly in a position to make decisions= on their country's future. You must be informed to make a decision and= when there is only one source of information available openly and another whispered in the mosques, well =8A=20 When we are championing Islam I feel that most are also using the= religious vehicle for other purpose (be they honorable or questionable) IMHO= most of us either through hubris or ignorance have tended to stray from the= path and followed the bright signposts to material and selfish rewards.= I am as guilty as the next Muslim of this pride. Sh. Nazim once spoke of= how sincerity is the most important ingredient in belief. Reflecting= on that, I think of how long it will take me to speak the words of Rabi'a Al= Adawiya in my du'a with total conviction, "Allah, if I pray to you in expectation of Heaven, bar me from it forever, if I pray to for fear of Hell,= cast me into its deepest pit, but if I pray to you purely out of sincere= love=8Athen receive me into paradise" Excuse my ramblings, my ignorance and thank you for your patience. Peace be upon you Hussein From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 04:29:40 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01314; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:29:42 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01263; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:29:41 -0400 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA18726 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:29:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:29:40 -0400 From: NurLuna@aol.com Message-Id: <950921082939_104962260@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Revisioning Islam #3 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: As-salaam aleikum, dearest sisters and brothers! In a message dated 95-09-2, Abdlqadir writes [in part]: >For the past month, I've noticed with some degree of dismay how the current >dialogue concerning Sufism and Islam has proceeded (throughout this and other >networks). A great deal of acrimonious, polemical discourse has taken place, >but little of it has clarified the basic topic of Sufism and its relationship >to Islam. > >As far as Sufism's relationship to official Islam is concerned -- > >Sufism's actual history indicates that many of its greatest exemplars placed >greater or lesser emphasis on sociological expressions of Islam, given the >necessities of time and place.... (lots of good stuff deleted) Thank you, brother, for your clarity. Rather than making true belief "wishy-washy", as the fundamentalists from my childhood would insist, the approach you outline makes it alive. My non-tariqas experience of Islam supports what you say. There is near where I live a truly amazing Rifai Marufi Sheikh who calls me "sister" and welcomes me into his zhikr circle, without demanding anything from me, except a heart which is open to the Beloved. Farrunnissa From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 04:54:31 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19668; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:54:32 -0400 Received: from maine.maine.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19642; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:54:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:54:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199509211254.AA19642@world.std.com> Received: from maine.maine.edu by MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 21 Sep 95 08:54:29 EDT X-Sender: mcpheran@maine.maine.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: mcpheran@maine.maine.edu (Mark McPherran) Subject: Re: Intelligence... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Matthias Otersen writes: >One shouldn't confuse "using one's intelligence" with "relying on one's >intelligence". Of course it's important to use one's brain where one can, >but logical deduction will in the end only lead to more logical deductions. >Western Philosophy heavily based on Logic hasn't succeeded in finding a >solid base for one's existence. In fact, it has just lead to nihilism and >atheism. One thought: There is +some+ truth to this comment, but it is also too extreme and plays into a growing trend that denigrates the important things that reason has achieved. Within Western philosophy there is a thread of thought that has relied on the tool of reason -- and other things to be sure -- and with which Sufism had found common ground (and even borrowed some terminology and perhaps more): the thread Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Plotinus,..... Mark M. From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 00:15:31 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18294; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:15:43 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18271; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:15:40 -0400 Received: by lafn.org id AA23584 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:15:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:15:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199509211415.AA23584@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: assist me please (fwd) Cc: an525@lafn.org Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear friends: What about Sheikh Ahsai as per Corbin et al in ...Clestial Earth? By teh way I am intriged by your first name. Golam in esoteric jewish thinking reflects the unconceptualized initial gleams of an idea that appears in the mind -- without form or any etheric or physical representation. Later it of course was developed into a whole metaphysical and meditational system for developing one's etheric double or "spiritual" helper. etc. and still later it was misconstrued as the conjuring up and creation of a pseudo-human in Eustern Europe, Raqib in Santa Monica > >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:37:47 +0100 (BST) >From: "M.G.Dastagir" >X-Sender: pipmgd@humus >Reply-To: M.G.Dastagir@philosophy.hull.ac.uk >To: pflaump@mail.firn.edu >Cc: sufi@world.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com, fdow@aol.com, > isl-sci@vtvm1.vt.cc.edu >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Sender: M.G.Dastagir@philosophy.hull.ac.uk > > > >Dear friends > >You helped me in so many way in the past. Could I request you for >something. You might know that my doctoral research is on the Sufi >Concept of the Soul in relation to Greek philosophy. As for Greek >philosophy I am mainly focusing on Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus, that is >on Neo-Platonism. Now as for Sufism, I wonder whether I should >concentrate on any particular Sufi order, or a particular Sufi, or >something else, for example, muslim philosophers such as Al-Farabi, Ibn >Sina, Ibn Rushd, or anybody else. > >Please assist me. I am confused. I have not as selected any particular >Sufi order and thus extracting Sufi texts from those who suit the Greek >context of the topic. > >Thanks in advance > >Sincerely > >Golam Dastagir > > > -- q k From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 07:05:03 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05999; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:05:09 -0400 Received: from junior.wariat.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05946; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:05:06 -0400 Received: from [199.18.253.211] (hoon.apk.net [199.18.253.211]) by junior.wariat.org (8.6.10/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA16763 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:05:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:05:03 -0400 X-Sender: hoon@junior.wariat.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: hoon@apk.net Subject: Celestial insights Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: intended as a substantiation, and, sent in peace. Corbin commenting on the fact of ascension (as described by Ibn' Arabi, r.a.) look upon our own existance. is it continuous ? or is it incessantly renewing on every breath ? does not being cease then come into being with every breath, and upon His sigh of compassion? hexeities, themselves pure possibles do not demand concrete existance. recurrent creation manifests infinitely essentially divinely. divine being descends, is epiphanized in our individuality - such being thus ascends to return to the source. every being ascends with the instant - to see this is to see the multiple existing in the one. and so the man who knows that is his "soul", such a man knows his Lord. (parsed and reiterated by the sender.) ***every being*** Forgive me God, if I am in error. asalaamu alaykhum to all. Stephen Calhoun From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 00:26:21 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20944; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:27:00 -0400 Received: from mail.crl.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20800; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:26:49 -0400 Received: from [1.1.1.1] (crl13.crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA10126 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:26:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199509211526.AA10126@mail.crl.com> X-Sender: gberlind@mail.crl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:26:21 -0800 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: gberlind@crl.com (Gary Berlind) Subject: Re: Revisioning Islam #3 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Thank you Abdlqadir for a beautifully-written comments on this subject. Asalamu Alaykum Nasir Gary Berlind ---------------------------------------------------------------- Gary Berlind gberlind@crl.com (510) 525-4691 FAX: (510) 525-2501 Desktop Innovations, Inc. (Publishers of the Morrissey Standard Computer Media Directory *and* PR/Works: - "Media Management Software for PR People") ---------------------------------------------------------------- From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 05:35:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28590; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:38:13 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28566; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:38:11 -0400 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA28193; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:36:07 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id ai29410; 21 Sep 95 15:37 WET Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 10:35 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Re: How Intelligent Should 1 Be? Message-Id: <53950921153535/0007106488PJ1EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Your answers about intelligence would seem to indicate that people less mentally gifted could not be Muslims or Sufis. What about mentally retarded people and boarder line cases. There are tests for intelligence that show that intelligence is distributed evenly on a bell curve. So, where then does a person no longer qualify? Is it one standard deviation below the mean, or maybe 1.5 standard deviations? -Michael- From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 08:35:36 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02872; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:35:59 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02841; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:35:56 -0400 Received: from sle3.asb.com (sle3.asb.com [165.254.128.73]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA05430 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:35:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:35:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199509211835.NAA05430@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Re: assist me please (fwd) X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Raqib writes: >By teh way I am intriged by your first name. Golam in esoteric jewish >thinking reflects the unconceptualized initial gleams of an idea that >appears in the mind -- without form or any etheric or physical >representation. Later it of course was developed into a whole >metaphysical and meditational system for developing one's etheric double >or "spiritual" helper. etc. and still later it was misconstrued as the >conjuring up and creation of a pseudo-human in Eustern Europe, > >Raqib in Santa Monica > > If I read Brother Dastagir's name correctly, his spelling Golam is the same as the name "Ghulam" which is Arabic means young slave. It is the short form, based on what I have heard, of "Ghulam al-rasul" or slave of the Prophet (s) and stems from the tradition of devotion and love for the Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him. Sadly, this tradition in the names has all but disappeared from Arabic-speaking lands, but it is still alive in the Indian sub-continent and SouthEast Asia. Best regards, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 03:58:50 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17874; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:58:23 -0400 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17820; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:58:21 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME ([204.94.232.136]) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA27514 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:58:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199509211758.AA27514@diamond.sierra.net> X-Sender: frank@sierra.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:58:50 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: frank@sierra.net (Tanzen Frank Gaude) Subject: Re: QQ re Sufi practice & re technology Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, dear Jinavamsa! and all of the tarigas! >>Also by the same lover of the Beloved: >> >>"What do you suggest, O Moslems!, for I do not recognize myself >> I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Moslem >> I am not of the East, nor West, nor of the land, nor of the sea >> I am not of Nature's mine, nor of the circling heavens >> I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin >> I am not of the kingdom of Iraq, nor of the land of Khorasan" >thank you. I do not find the ghazal in my own present source (Odes Mystiques, >which runs to less than 1100 sections), Of the 3,000 ghazals of Rumi, many have yet to be translated into English, from my understanding. Nader Khalili translated only 75 selected ones from the book of the "Diwan-i-Shams-i Tabrizi" taken from the Furuzanfar's tenth Persian edition. The ghazal numbering is that of the Furuzanfar's. >and I have read the above somewhere >but don't remember. Memory fails, but I do believe this Rumi piece, "What do you suggest... ", is from either R.A. Nicholson or A.J. Arberry, one of the 400 or so they published into English. >thank you for reminding me of it. Bulgaria: was that >connected with the roots of the Cathars? >or is there another reference meant? Can't say, but likely not. I take it as simply a geographical location, along with India, China, etc. Rumi is not simply of the places of the earth (Nature's mine), but of the One, the All, the "yes" balanced with the "no", i.e., Allah! What pantheism. I love it! Rumi seems to avoid any exclusivity about himself and his God. There is no best, no right, no wrong, just the Beloved. Many of us can learn much from his devotion (bhakti), bypassing differences and distinctions. Can you see him promoting any one organized religion over another? He is universal and likely why he is being appreciated more and more in this new age, as consciousness rises. >(Saqsin=?) ... questions! Sorry, don't have the foggiest idea of it... but likely a section, locale in Rumi's time, like Khorasan. Here's another one from "Fountain of Fire" , Nader Khalili, Burning Gate Press, Tarzana CA, 1994: RESTLESS now i go to the door now i go on the roof till i see your face i'll never know rest neighbors speak of me when you are away as meek or mad but when you return everything subsides this heart of mine tears itself apart and seeks no joy but only wants to know when you'll arrive but when you return and a wine-server is around i hold a cup fondle your hair and caress your face just come and see me letting go of my wish letting go of my pilgrimage keeping one wish in my heart making love to your desires ghazal number 1512, translated March, 1991 Love, harmony, and beauty, in the coming seconds, days, years, eons, Tanzen at Lake Tahoe California From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 11:32:21 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25715; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:25 -0400 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25658; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:22 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA15712 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:21 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:21 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950921153220_25601769@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Please answer! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: I don't know what was in the mind of Omar when he was writing his message, referred to just below, but I can say that the interpretation that Jawad gives here captures a large part of what at least one reader (this one, obviously) took Omar's point to be. Jawad wrote: >I don't know if some of the brothers/sisters understood the poit that >brother Omar was trying to make. Essentially, what he asking was >this: why is there so many divisions amongst the Muslims, if we are >indeed the people on the True Path? Why is it that everything that >we say, about our unity, our love for one another and all humanity, >etc, why is that not manifested? Bringing up the comparison with >those that are outside and opponents of the Truth was done to >illustrate our differences. Why is the Mulsim League not working as >smoothly as the UN? There are unities amongst us, and unity amongst >themselves, but they are a lot closer to each other, then Muslims are >to other Muslims. > >I think, and Allah knows best, that this is what Brother Omar was >asking. > >Salam, > >Jawad. may all inspiring talk of brotherhood and love and compassion truly inspire and, so, be manifest worldwide, among all humans and all other living beings, as well, in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 11:32:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25839; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:33 -0400 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25800; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:30 -0400 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA17332 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:28 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950921153226_25601840@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: How Intelligent Should 1 Be? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Abdlqadir, Your quote -- which follows -- is very interesting. Does the UN Rep. from Pakistan reflect a teaching that comes from the Koran itself? or from any of the traditional great teachers, whether Sufi or other, from within the Islamic universe? I find the quote to be expressing a very open attitude. Thank you. in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-09-21 06:56:49 EDT, you write: > >4) From the first Rep. to the U..N. from Pakistan: > >"Islam makes the comprehension and interpretation of its Law dependent on the >individual's knowledge and conscience alone and does not force him to accept >interpretations by any other individual or organized body as morally binding" >(in The Principles of State and Government in Islam: Muhammad Asad, >Gibraltar: Dar Al-Andalus, 1987, p. 20) > >Asalumu Alaykum >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Thu Sep 21 00:34:09 1995 >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:28:07 -0400 >From: Abdlqadir@aol.com >Subject: Re: How Intelligent Should 1 Be? From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 11:32:30 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25862; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:35 -0400 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25818; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:31 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA15769 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:30 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950921153229_25601872@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Demonization and division Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Hussein, In a message dated 95-09-21 08:16:24 EDT, you write: >Excuse my ramblings, my ignorance and thank you for your patience. > >Peace be upon you >Hussein I did not find your posting a matter of rambling, but very touching and beautiful. may it be. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 11:32:32 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26013; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:43 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25961; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:40 -0400 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA13022 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:32 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950921153231_25601903@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: QQ re Sufi practice & re technology Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: thank you for another beautiful Rumi poem. your ending opened my mind in (for) a split second to the size of the cosmos in peace Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-09-21 14:03:22 EDT, you write: > >Nader Khalili translated only 75 selected ones from the book of the >"Diwan-i-Shams-i Tabrizi" taken from the Furuzanfar's tenth Persian edition. >The ghazal numbering is that of the Furuzanfar's. > >>and I have read the above somewhere >>but don't remember. > >Memory fails, but I do believe this Rumi piece, "What do you suggest... ", >is from either R.A. Nicholson or A.J. Arberry, one of the 400 or so they >published into English. > > >Here's another one from "Fountain of Fire" , Nader Khalili, Burning Gate >Press, Tarzana CA, 1994: > >RESTLESS >now i go to the door >now i go on the roof >till i see your face >i'll never know rest > >neighbors speak of me >when you are away >as meek or mad >but when you return >everything subsides > >this heart of mine >tears itself apart >and seeks no joy >but only wants to know >when you'll arrive > >but when you return >and a wine-server is around >i hold a cup >fondle your hair and >caress your face > >just come and see me >letting go of my wish >letting go of my pilgrimage >keeping one wish in my heart >making love to your desires > >ghazal number 1512, translated March, 1991 > >Love, harmony, and beauty, in the coming seconds, days, years, eons, > >Tanzen at Lake Tahoe California > > > > From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 05:59:23 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29518; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:21:13 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.pixi.com (sirius.pixi.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29423; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:21:09 -0400 Received: from pixiuser.pixi.com by mailrelay.pixi.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id NAA11021; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:22:45 -1000 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 12:59:23 PDT From: sanjuan5@pixi.com (alberto san juan jr) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Hawaiian vacation Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim O Beloved Thou All-Knowing, All-Encompassing, All-Embracing Your Embrace is sufficient What can one want from this world You are All in all You are Light upon Light Nothing exists but You The dead do not complain What is this lovers' lament Of course You have made us strangers With secrets and unbearable longing For You alone Alhamdulillah You have made us invisible And hidden us for Your Pleasure As You are Pleased, we are pleasing Subhanallah On one side a curtain which went up Who knows when? On the other side assertions from limitation But in You Alone there is Peace O Allah, Knower of all Hearts Unity beyond diversity Essence beyond manifestation Healer, Bestower, Most Generous Beloved Our tongues are wrapped in "La ilaha illallah" What more could we ask But Your All-Encompassing Embrace Free of Need Ocean of Grace, All-Consuming Words fail, hearts sail, Allah Hu Ahad Allah Hu Akbar May our hearts be happy May our souls be filled with divine Light May Allah increase us in spiritual stations and true knowledge May all the lovers be conscious of their Unity May Allah cause us to be pleasing to Himself May we see pleasure and pain as equal waves upon the Ocean May there be no divisions, only Unity May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon our beloved Prophet Muhammad, his family and companions, and upon the noble souls of the Pirs and Saints, and all the Prophets and their families and companions, and all lovers of Truth wherever they may exist. Astaghfirullah From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 15:39:46 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12181; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:39:51 -0400 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12116; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:39:48 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA00486 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:39:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:39:46 -0400 From: Abdlqadir@aol.com Message-Id: <950921193946_105443096@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: How Intelligent #2 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On 9/21/95 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: >Abdlqadir, >Your quote -- which follows -- is very interesting. Does the UN Rep. >from Pakistan reflect a teaching that comes from the Koran itself? >or from any of the traditional great teachers, whether Sufi or other, >from within the Islamic universe? I find the quote to be expressing a >very open attitude. In a message dated 95-09-21 06:56:49 EDT, you >write: From the first Rep. to the U..N. from Pakistan: >"Islam makes the comprehension and interpretation of its Law >dependent on the individual's knowledge and conscience alone and >does not force him to accept interpretations by any other individual >or organized body as morally binding" (in The Principles of State >and Government in Islam: Muhammad Asad, Gibraltar: Dar >Al-Andalus, 1987, p. 20) In fact, Muhammad Asad did not consider himself a Sufi. His conversion to Islam -- he was born a Vienese Jew -- in the 1920s was based upon a carefully reasoned examination of Qu'ran and Ahadith, and through his close friendhships with King Faisal, King Saud (the founders of Saudi Arabia), and, later, Jinnah (the founder of Pakistan). I chose him to quote because one could consider him a rather conservative muslim, and yet, his commentaries on Qur'an ( in "The Message of the Qur'an," 1984) are perhaps the most illuminating which I have discovered in English, to date. As with everything else that he says, the quote above is well-grounded in both Qur'an and ahadith. I highly recommend the two books cited above to both Sufi and non-Sufi muslims or to others interested in expanding their knowledge of general Islam. These, and other titles of Asad's, can be purchased from Threshold Books in Brattleboro in Vermont. I am sorry that I do not have their current address, however, their current telephone number is 802-257-2779. Another book which I have found to be an enlightening companion to reading Qu'ran and ahadith is "Islam and Modernity" by Fazlur Rahman, University of Chicago Press, 1982. Rahman, like Asad, is clearly not a Sufi, yet both of them present a vital perspective, which along with Sufi exegesis -- most of it, unfortunately still in Arabic -- is extremely important in understading the connection between Sufism and Essential Islam. I hope these references help. Asalum Alaykum From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 15:35:37 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12201; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:39:52 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12182; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:39:51 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA26314 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:35:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:35:37 -0400 From: Abdlqadir@aol.com Message-Id: <950921193536_105443127@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: How intelligent #3 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On 9/21/95 Mike Moore (0007106488@mcimail.com) wrote: >Your answers about intelligence would seem to indicate that people >less mentally gifted could not be Muslims or Sufis. >What about mentally retarded people and boarder line cases. >There are tests for intelligence that show that intelligence is >distributed evenly on a bell curve. So, where then does a >person no longer qualify? Is it one standard deviation below >the mean, or maybe 1.5 standard deviations? I did not mean to imply that mentally retarded, and other similarly disadvantaged people, cannot be Muslims or Sufis. Certainly sincerity and heartfelt devotion are higher criteria in both cases. Nevertheless, we are directed to work our reason to its upper-most limits, which (of course) varies from person to person based upon innate capacity. I do suggest, however, that heartfelt devotion is best accompanied by both knowledge and discrimination. In fact, most Classical Sufi authors equate the sirr, or "secret" of the heart (qalb), with a higher form of "intellect" (aql). This form of "intellect," of course may be more intuitive-synthetic rather than rational-analytic,yet, the former function does not cancel out the latter, except in special instances. It seems to me, instead, that intution *fulfills* reason. I stand to be corrected, but my reading of Sufism (in the main) is that it calls for a balancing of all of one's functions in a "purified nafs"; the latter being a "personality-structure" which is fully realigned with: and subservient to the Only True Existent. If so, then intuition and reason need to become balanced in the most mature type of Muslim-Sufi. Asalumu Alaykum. From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 19:50:44 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25142; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:56:41 -0400 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25061; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:56:38 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id JAA16597; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:56:29 +1000 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:50:44 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: Intelligence... To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <306136CE@smtpmail.logica.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you, Otersen, On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Otersen Mathias wrote: > I have to confess that the basis of sufism "Islam" is a very unlikely > starting place for the development that sufism is. Islam is based on the > strict following of rules and sayings that are seen as unfailing (Ko'ran, > Sha'ria and Hadiths), while sufism asserts that while these are ofcourse > "right", their importance lies in their underlaying truth (a quite modern > thought, if I may say so.....). Unfortunately, you are right in that many Muslims do see the strict following of rules to be Islam's *fundamental* basis. But if we look at the Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allah be with him) life, and the development of the Qur'an, we see that for 13 years in Mecca, *all* the verses revealed dealt with purely spiritual matters. Only after the flight to Medina, did many rules for the new Muslim community come about. That the spiritual basis historically came first teaches us that the foundation must be spiritual, not on blind obedience to rules and regulations. Your insight is gifted :) Alhamdulillah, there are also many Muslims who recognize this. Not all Muslims think Islam is fundamentally adherence to strict rules, but unfortunately these are the ones who tend to make the news. Peace, Fred Rice From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 20:06:09 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10221; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:16:27 -0400 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10129; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:16:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA17586; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:16:16 +1000 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:06:09 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: How Intelligent Should 1 Be? To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950921153226_25601840@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > Abdlqadir, > > Your quote -- which follows -- is very interesting. Does the UN Rep. from > Pakistan reflect a teaching that comes from the Koran itself? or from any of > the traditional great teachers, whether Sufi or other, from within the > Islamic universe? I find the quote to be expressing a very open attitude. > Thank you. > > in peace, > Jinavamsa > > In a message dated 95-09-21 06:56:49 EDT, you write: > > > > >4) From the first Rep. to the U..N. from Pakistan: > > > >"Islam makes the comprehension and interpretation of its Law dependent on > the > >individual's knowledge and conscience alone and does not force him to accept > >interpretations by any other individual or organized body as morally > binding" > >(in The Principles of State and Government in Islam: Muhammad Asad, > >Gibraltar: Dar Al-Andalus, 1987, p. 20) Just a quick comment, since I am a Muhammad Asad fan :) Muhammad Asad was born Leopold Weiss, in Austria, to orthodox Jewish parents. He accepted Islam when he was in his 20's as a journalist in the Middle East. In his early years, he wrote a book called "Islam at the Crossroads," which was very influential I understand in the Middle East in the first half of this century. He also came to be Pakistan's first ambassador to the UN. After a life-time of studying Islam, he made a translation and commentary of the Qur'an, "The Message of the Qur'an" (published in 1980). He passed from this earthly life to the next in 1992 or 1993 (I forget now exactly which year it was). You can read his autobiography (of his years living among Arabian nomads, in Pakistan, etc.) called "The Road to Mecca." (As far as I am aware, he is not a Sufi.) May Allah reward him for his many great efforts! Wassalam, Fred Rice From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 18:09:41 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25952; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:13:06 -0400 Received: from disperse.demon.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25878; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:13:02 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by disperse.demon.co.uk id af25205; 21 Sep 95 17:11 +0100 Received: from amwal.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa20122; 21 Sep 95 17:08 +0100 X-Sender: (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:09:41 +0100 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: Hussein Ahmes Khalifa Subject: Re: Intelligence Message-Id: <9509211708.aa20122@post.demon.co.uk> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salam, Michael Moore writes: "Your answers about intelligence would seem to indicate that people= =20 less mentally gifted could not be Muslims or Sufis. What about mentally retarded people and boarder line cases.=20 There are tests for intelligence that show that intelligence is distributed evenly on a bell curve. So, where then does a person no longer qualify? Is it one standard deviation below the mean, or maybe 1.5 standard deviations? " Well this has been a deeply researched subject and the accepted opinion= of the learned religious scholars is the fatwa stating that a male Muslim= can only be a Sufi if his intelligence lies within one point two five= standard deviations of the mean of the pan-Islamic community's intelligence.= This qualification is for the basest of Sufi orders as the more exalted= and enlightened ones require inteligence above 1.5 standard deviations= above the mean=8A=20 There are no cutoffs to be a simple Muslim of course but these people should refrain from any attempts at interpreting the Koran and simple listen to what the learned tell them at jumm'a khutbas and follow accordingly. Women of course should listen to their husbands who= will provide them with the best path to truth. ;) salam aleikum wa rahmatullah Hussein From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 17:18:59 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18318; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:19:31 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18307; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:19:29 -0400 Received: from sle5.asb.com (sle5.asb.com [165.254.128.75]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA09378 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:18:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:18:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199509220318.WAA09378@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Belief in angels X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Belief in the Angels Excerpt from Shaykh Hisham Kabbani s <>, Chicago: KAZI Publications, 1995. 34:40: And on the day when He will gather them all together, He will say unto the angels: Did these worship you? 43:53: Why, then, have armlets of gold not been set upon him, or angels sent along with him? It is said that the word angel comes from the Latin angelus, which is borrowed from the Greek angelos. In Arabic the word is malak or malaak, plural malaa ikat. The Arabic root verb alaka, which means to give a message, confirms the angel s etymological connection to the function of Messenger of God in the semitic languages. The existence of angels is one of the pillars of belief in most religious traditions and that is the case in Islam also. God mentions the angels in the Holy Koran in more than ninety different places. They also occupy prominent places in the narrations of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, and the many accounts of saints and the pious men and women of the recent past and present. The following pages are an all-too- brief selection of some of the accounts and explanations that have reached us from those three sources. The Koran says (2:285): "The Messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and so do the believers. Each one believeth in God and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. Grant us Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying." God thus orders every person to believe in His angels as an obligation parallel to that of believing in Himself, His Books, and His Messengers. From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 13:57:43 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05413; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:26:23 -0400 Received: from disperse.demon.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05370; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:26:20 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by disperse.demon.co.uk id ab26035; 21 Sep 95 12:59 +0100 Received: from amwal.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa01226; 21 Sep 95 12:56 +0100 X-Sender: (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:57:43 +0100 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: Hussein Ahmes Khalifa Subject: Demonization and division Message-Id: <9509211256.aa01226@post.demon.co.uk> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salam, This group and Musims generally have spent much time recently questioning the divisions within their own religion (inter-sect eg. Sunni/Shia; inter-madhab eg. Maliki/Hanbali-Wahabi; and inter-tariqa eg. Naqshbandiya/Chistiya etc. etc.) The Prophet (SA) said that the greatness of our religion lay in the diversity of views among Muslims. Unfortunately it seems to have= gotten out of hand. My own humble reflections on this are based on my own limited experience so pls excuse me if I give offence to anyone. Muslim unity is regarded by many Muslims as a chimera, an illusion,= but it is this very illusion that threatens and discriminates against most= of us vis a vis the West. To many in Europe and the States we are a united= force of unreason of maniacal dogma trying to destroy their very civilization. This is confirmed by the unrestrained rantings and death threats= from Iran, Gaza and even Bradford in the UK that make up part of the daily does= of Islam presented by the media. The West's delay in dealing with the= Bosnia problem is a manifestation of those very fears. It is easy for us= to condemn them but then Islamic action on Bosnia has hardly been as= effective as it might have. The truth is that most of us feel outraged because= those who believe in what we do are being persecuted and oppressed because= of their beliefs and descent. The Holocaust more than anything else= taught the Jews what it meant to be a people. The broader lesson from that tragedy= is something most of us have neglected despite the constant reminders= on TV, film and in magazines.=20 Perhaps we should ask ourselves what it means to be Muslim and take= it from there. Basically it means submission to Allah and recognition of= Mohamed as his Prophet. The tariqas teach us that submission may come from fear, expectation of reward or most sincerely from love. This seems IMHO= to be the essence of Islam, religion at its most fundamental level. Correct= me if I am wrong but is there any scope for dissent at this stage? Problems= arise from interpretation of the Koran and the Ahadith. Now I was taught= that while Allah sent down numerous prophets to every people (Yunus xlvii)= each revelation was for a particular place and time. The Koran on the= other hand was eternal and for all mankind. Does this not mean that this revelation could and should be interpreted dynamically within the context of= our times and situation? It seems that the quarrels between us have been centered= on (relative) irrelevancies which more often than not emphasize cultural differences between us. These differences deep down contrast us more= than any other, which perhaps is natural. Our mistake is to let these differences enter into religion. Any Muslim in a cosmopolitan city= with several different Islamic communities will notice that each friday= prayer has a certain flavour. That Bengalis go to one while Arabs go to= others is natural due to language differences but more interesting is the fact= that in a two mile radius in central London there are some ten (minimum)= jumma prayers, divided along nationality lines. Saudis will congregate= together at Saudi Embassy prayers while Egyptians will go to the Cultural= Centre prayers, each going to the familiar. Many have told me that they= feel more comfortable with their own. Even in the Middle East mosques reflect= not so much geographical community but rather social and political allegiances despite state-mandated khutbas. The West sees us as a potential threat to their civilization, but= whom are they looking at? They assume that our leaders represent us and that= their viewpoints are that of the country. The threat is that we are waging= a Holy War (their literal interpretation of jihad) to destroy them. Why= do we want to do that? Actually the majority of Muslims in their own countries= are shamefully undereducated and hardly in a position to make decisions= on their country's future. You must be informed to make a decision and= when there is only one source of information available openly and another whispered in the mosques, well =8A=20 When we are championing Islam I feel that most are also using the= religious vehicle for other purpose (be they honorable or questionable) IMHO= most of us either through hubris or ignorance have tended to stray from the= path and followed the bright signposts to material and selfish rewards.= I am as guilty as the next Muslim of this pride. Sh. Nazim once spoke of= how sincerity is the most important ingredient in belief. Reflecting= on that, I think of how long it will take me to speak the words of Rabi'a Al= Adawiya in my du'a with total conviction, "Allah, if I pray to you in expectation of Heaven, bar me from it forever, if I pray to for fear of Hell,= cast me into its deepest pit, but if I pray to you purely out of sincere= love=8Athen receive me into paradise" Excuse my ramblings, my ignorance and thank you for your patience. Peace be upon you Hussein From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 20:14:01 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05407; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:14:03 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05392; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:14:01 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA04297 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:14:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:14:01 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950922001400_26063222@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: love Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: something on love: "La ilaha illa'l-`ishq" ("There is no god but Love"), the formulation of the Sufi Fakhruddin `Iraqi, a contemporary of Rumi in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 18:32:34 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24586; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:35:46 -0400 Received: from netcom7.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24573; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:35:44 -0400 Received: by netcom7.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id BAA22534; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 01:32:34 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 01:32:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: The power of zikr To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <9509211708.aa20122@post.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Wasalam alekem, There is no God but God. Tonight pre-Zikr O read Birdsong by Rumi translated by Coleman Barks. Then Zikr. Then a bite to eat. On the way home I found a Yellow finch trying to fly into a store front. I picked him up by gently wrapping my hand around him. He escaped and perched on my finger. I caried him down the street to a stand of trees. He wouldn't leave my finger. I brought him home. His feathers were those of an inside bird, not rough like a street bird. I gave him food and a place to perch. Some birds like the comfort of the indoors(cage) give them freedom and they fly back. This is a real life story not an alegory. There is always room for the guest. I just picked the book again and this quatrain was the first one I saw: " I placed one foot on the wide plain of death, and some grand immensity sounded on the emptyness. I have felt nothing ever Like the wild wonder of that moment. Peace be to all(one) AriLeib Hal Sheik Tzadok or whoever. From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 04:37:03 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24911; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:37:03 -0400 Received: from carmen.logica.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24905; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:37:01 -0400 Received: from smtpmail.logica.com (mssmtp.logica.com [158.234.8.102]) by carmen.logica.co.uk (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id JAA28267 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:37:14 +0100 (BST) Received: by smtpmail.logica.com with Microsoft Mail id <306283BA@smtpmail.logica.com>; Fri, 22 Sep 95 09:36:58 bst From: Otersen Mathias To: "'tariqasmail'" Subject: Re: Intelligence, some extra comment... Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 09:48:00 bst Message-Id: <306283BA@smtpmail.logica.com> Encoding: 40 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >One shouldn't confuse "using one's intelligence" with "relying on one's >intelligence". Of course it's important to use one's brain where one can, >but logical deduction will in the end only lead to more logical deductions. >Western Philosophy heavily based on Logic hasn't succeeded in finding a >solid base for one's existence. In fact, it has just lead to nihilism and >atheism. Mark M. comment: One thought: There is +some+ truth to this comment, but it is also too extreme and plays into a growing trend that denigrates the important things that reason has achieved. Within Western philosophy there is a thread of thought that has relied on the tool of reason -- and other things to be sure -- and with which Sufism had found common ground (and even borrowed some terminology and perhaps more): the thread Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Plotinus,..... ==> Islam is heavily (or better was heavily) influenced by the classical Greek philosophers (some of their works are saved only in their Arabic translation!). So philosophics and/or reasoning are important to Islam. Nowadays one sees however the disturbing development that Islam turns into "living by the rules" by turning more and more to the literal interpretation of Sharia and hadiths. The "Logic" behind this is that in this way one certainly lives "the right way". Spiritual development seems less to be a concern... ==> Logic should thus only be one side of the medal... It is of no use if it hinders the spiritual development. Matthias. From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 02:44:53 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02515; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:45:19 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02494; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:45:17 -0400 Received: from sle4.asb.com (sle4.asb.com [165.254.128.74]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA11638 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:44:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:44:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199509221244.HAA11638@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: The Angels of Koran X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: The Angels of Koran ------------------- Excerpt from Shaykh Hisham Kabbani's <> (Chicago: KAZI Publications, 1995). 4:166: "But God Himself testifieth concerning that which He hath revealed unto thee; in His knowledge hath He revealed it; and the Angels also testify. And God is sufficient witness." God has created a tree in the seventh heaven, on each leaf of which is found one letter of the Holy Koran. Every leaf is a throne carved from a precious stone, and every letter is represented by an angel sitting on that throne. Every angel is the key to a different endless ocean of knowledge, which has no beginning and no end. In every ocean there is a complete universe with its own unique creation. The diver into these oceans is the Archangel Gabriel. It was he who brought to the Prophet the pearls of those oceans when he appeared to him and said three times: "Recite!" To this command the Prophet, Peace be upon him, each time answered: "What am I to recite?" and Gabriel said: Recite: In the name of thy Lord who createth, Createth man from a clot. Recite: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teacheth by the pen, Teacheth man that which he knew not. (96:1-5) At that time the Archangel brought to the Prophet two green pieces of cloth from heaven, one of which was decorated with all kinds of precious stones from the earth, and the other with precious elements from heaven. He opened the first cloth and told the Prophet to sit on it, and he handed him the second one and told him to open it. When he opened it, he received the Holy Koran with words of light, and the secret of that tree in the seventh Heaven was revealed to him. Whoever reads the Holy Koran with sincerity and piety is enabled to enter these oceans of knowledge and light. The Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, saw a tablet made of rare pearls under the Throne of God and another tablet of emerald. Upon the first was the first chapter, Surat al-Fatihat, which consists of seven verses, and upon the second the entire Koran. He asked the Archangel Gabriel, "What is the reward of one who reads the Fatiha?" Gabriel said, "The seven doors of hell will be closed for him, and the seven doors of paradise will be opened for him." The Prophet said: "What is the reward of the one who recites the whole Koran?" Gabriel replied: "For every letter that he reads God will create an angel that will plant a tree for him in paradise." Then the Prophet saw a triple light radiating in three directions, and he asked what it was. Gabriel said: "One of them is the light of the Verse of the Throne (2:255), the second is the "Surat Ya Seen" (Chapter 36), and the third is the Surat of Oneness (Chapter 112). The Prophet asked: "What is the reward of one who reads the Verse of the Throne?" Gabriel replied: "God said: It is My attribute, and whoever recites it shall look at Me on Judgment Day without veil." The Prophet then asked: "What is the reward for one who reads Surat Ya Seen?" The answer came from God: "It consists of eighty verses, and whoever reads it will receive eighty mercies: twenty angels will bring him twenty mercies in his life, twenty more angels will bring him twenty mercies at his death, twenty more, twenty mercies in his grave, and twenty others, twenty mercies on Judgment Day." The Prophet said: "What is the reward for reading the Chapter of Oneness?" The answer came: "The angels will give him to drink from the four heavenly rivers that are mentioned in the holy Koran: the river of pure crystal water, the river of milk, the river of wine, and the river of honey." From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 10:30:44 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29004; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:30:44 -0400 Received: from carmen.logica.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28920; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:30:36 -0400 Received: from smtpmail.logica.com (mssmtp.logica.com [158.234.8.102]) by carmen.logica.co.uk (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id PAA22987 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:30:46 +0100 (BST) Received: by smtpmail.logica.com with Microsoft Mail id <3062D697@smtpmail.logica.com>; Fri, 22 Sep 95 15:30:31 bst From: Otersen Mathias To: "'tariqasmail'" Subject: Re: Intelligence Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 16:04:00 bst Message-Id: <3062D697@smtpmail.logica.com> Encoding: 23 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: ***Things about how clever one needs to be*** There are no cutoffs to be a simple Muslim of course but these people should refrain from any attempts at interpreting the Koran and simple listen to what the learned tell them at jumm'a khutbas and follow accordingly. Women of course should listen to their husbands who= will provide them with the best path to truth. ;) ==> How fortunate we are to have you explain us the subtleties of the subject. Especially the thorough reasoning for what's suitable for women is quite impressive. (It's rather odd, but somewhere in my mind lingers the thought that some of the most famous sufis were woman). salam aleikum wa rahmatullah Hussein ==> Likewise, Matthias. (Spoiled by Western thought and stuff) From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 04:40:41 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07812; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:40:49 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07735; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:40:47 -0400 Received: from muphnx11 (muphnx11.phlab.missouri.edu [128.206.115.21]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16597 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:40:42 -0500 From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199509221440.JAA16597@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by muphnx11 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA02747; Fri, 22 Sep 95 09:40:41 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 09:40:41 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Please answer! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salam, Jinavamsa, The only reason why I think that I have a bit more of a clue as to what brother Omar was talking about is because he is my brother. Not by faith, but by blood, and we've discussed this topic before. I'm not as conceited as my previous mail may make it seem. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 10:42:53 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14858; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:42:53 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:42:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199509221442.AA14858@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From forresta@duke.usask.ca Fri Sep 22 02:42:48 1995 Return-Path: Received: from cogito.usask.ca by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14721; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:42:50 -0400 Received: by cogito.usask.ca (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA23578; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:42:46 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:42:48 -0600 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: forresta@duke.usask.ca Subject: Please take me off the list Hi there ..I have really enjoyed reading all the articles posted in tariquas but now I would like to unsubscribe myself. Ayten Saleh-Forrest Student Recruitment Centre 97 Campus Drive University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, SK S7N 4L3 Tel.(306) 966-5093 Fax.(306) 966-5092 ______________________________________________________________________________ From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 11:25:34 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10392; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:29:51 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10373; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:29:50 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA08617 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:25:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:25:34 -0400 From: NurLuna@aol.com Message-Id: <950922152534_26524045@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque ... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Great Peace and Shining Joy to you, friend Jinavamsa! In a message dated 95-09-18, you wrote [in part]: >The understanding that there was a non-hierarchical peaceful society before >the descent of the Aryans into the Indian sub-continent (taking it over, so >to speak, long before the British, and ultimately calling themselves, neither >Indian nor European, the Indo-European culture) is talked about in a work by >the Belgian writer Andre von Lysebeth. He talks of les saigneurs [those who >cause the blood to flow, as in battle] becoming les seigneurs [the lords]. >(It's a play on words, as the two are homonyms in French.) >It is in English translation, but I have the book as Tantra: le culte de la >fe'minite' (Flammarion, ISBN 2.08.201351.0); Engl. is Tantra: The Cult of the >Feminine (Weiser, ISBN 0-87728-845-3). The book is rather big are carefully >written. (The French text is over 450 pages. I haven't seen the English, >which is scheduled to be published in October.) What an unfortunate choice of title! Does the term "cult" have the same implications in French as it does in English? If so, then in what light is this book presenting its subject? If not, then perhaps another choice would have been better for the English translation. Indeed, if one considers the evidence that partnership-based societies existed for some 20,000 - 30,000 years on this planet, one might conclude that an accurate term for the prevailing sentiment of the last 4,000 - 6,000 years would be "the cult of the masculine". ;-) Farrunnissa From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 05:44:17 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24913; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:47:32 -0400 Received: from netcom19.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24868; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:47:29 -0400 Received: by netcom19.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id MAA16200; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:44:18 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:44:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: beit ul ma'mour To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950919150953_23548179@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > Re: beit ul ma'mour > I have tried to trace this term down. > The beit I take it is = bait, or house, in Arabic. > the ul is a marker of the genitive ("of") > but as for ma'mour, which I have seen translated as The Lord > (hence the expression is rendered The House of The Lord) > I do not understand. Somewhere I read it refers to a sense of plenitude (as > in Koran, S. 47, A. 38), but cannot trace it back to the Arabic word it is > trying to transliterate. what might that be? > > Any help out there? > and besides the literal meaning, what is the import of this idea for the Sufi > tradition? > > thank you very much. > in peace, > Jinavamsa > This may be off subject, however that never stopped me before. When I look at the phrase beit ul ma'mour I origionally thought this to be french. Owing to cross cultural similarities in the roots of the words, so, I'm going to make this up. amor is french/spanish/italian root for love. if beit is house or bait, and ul is of Then house of the lord is also bait of love.. bait of the lord, house of the lord. and the house of the Lord's love This is a great pun. It is interesting to imagine that there is a place to go to find the lord, to be with the prophet, allah or in your own heart. Hal AriLeib Tzadok From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 07:31:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14958; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:31:41 -0400 Received: from inet1.tek.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14936; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:31:38 -0400 Received: by inet1.tek.com id ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:32:18 -0700 Received: from tektronix.tek.com(134.62.48.24) by inet1 via smap (V1.3) id sma024747; Fri Sep 22 14:32:14 1995 Received: from cascade.ENS.TEK.COM by tektronix.TEK.COM (4.1/8.2) id AA24790; Fri, 22 Sep 95 14:30:43 PDT Received: from netman.ENS.TEK.COM by cascade.ENS.TEK.COM (5.0/8.1) id AA13469; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:33:01 -0700 Received: from localhost.TEK by netman.ENS.TEK.COM (4.1/8.0) id AA14133; Fri, 22 Sep 95 14:31:29 PDT Message-Id: <9509222131.AA14133@netman.ENS.TEK.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.COM Cc: davidh@cascade.ENS.TEK.COM Subject: Re: response to David Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:31:28 PDT From: David Hatcher Content-Length: 2845 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Hi ya Daniel Muzaffer; Thanks for your response to my article to you. There were several items that perked my ears as I read your very informative response to my not so informative posting to you. I wish to only focus upon this one paragraph that you wrote though. In it you wrote: >High-flown rhetoric about "uniting as one in the heart of our beloved >Allah" reinforces the points I made, as there are genuine and >authentic transmissions (silsila) and disciplines (aturuq) that lead >to such a state, and the preciousness of their existence only makes >more repugnant some of the parodies that people label after one or >another wisdom-way. Personally, I feel that the ideal of "uniting as one in the heart of our beloved Allah" is not at all a "High-flown rhetoric", but that it is truly a reachable goal for each of us, regardless of which tariqa we belong to, or even which spiritual path we follow. I "think" I see what your trying to point towards in the rest of your above paragraph, but in your leaving off the rest of what I wrote, I think that the full meaning of what I was hoping to get across was changed way beyond what I was wanting to point towards. For a reminder, the text of what I wrote that relates to this follows: >I have to ask: Is there a way or place of Unity where the Muslim and >non-Muslim Tariqa's can be united with in this forum? > >As for me, that way and place is very clear! > >It's in our uniting as one in the heart of our Beloved, Allah. From that >place we will than relate to each other, heart to heart. Part of what's important here, for me anyway, is that this ideal IS very much alive AND attainable for both the Muslim AND non-Muslim groups in this forum, regardless of which tariqa we follow. The other part of what is important, again for me anyway, is Unity between each of us in this forum. I know that in my own being that I am much better off if before I write to this forum, and others, that my articles are much more compassionate when before I write, I open my heart to my Beloved and pray or even do Zikr. When I go back and read articles I write I find a great difference than when I write from an ego position as compared to when I have open my heart to whom I am writing to, after first opening my heart to Allah. Also, the articles written back to me from a person who had first reached towards Allah are much different than those who write from more of an ego perspective. The resultant energy flow between us is more of an open heart and quite enjoyable. I know for a fact that I'm not at all very good at looking first towards Allah before I write. I more often than not react from ego driven knee jerk needs than heart felt openness. The question here for me at this time is "what is my intention when I respond to a posting?" Thanks David From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 07:43:48 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24977; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:47:02 -0400 Received: from netcom11.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24954; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:47:00 -0400 Received: by netcom11.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id OAA16875; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:43:49 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:43:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: response to David To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: davidh@cascade.ENS.TEK.COM In-Reply-To: <9509222131.AA14133@netman.ENS.TEK.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, David Hatcher wrote: > > Hi ya Daniel Muzaffer; > > Thanks for your response to my article to you. There were several items > that perked my ears as I read your very informative response to my > not so informative posting to you. I wish to only focus upon this one > paragraph that you wrote though. In it you wrote: > ----------------snip---------------------------------------- > Also, the articles written back to me from a person who had first > reached towards Allah are much different than those who write from > more of an ego perspective. The resultant energy flow between us > is more of an open heart and quite enjoyable. > > I know for a fact that I'm not at all very good at looking first > towards Allah before I write. I more often than not react from ego > driven knee jerk needs than heart felt openness. The question here > for me at this time is "what is my intention when I respond to a posting?" > surrendering deeper? ari leib Hal Tzadok From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 16:49:43 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25558; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:50:37 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25534; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:50:34 -0400 Received: from sle5.asb.com (sle5.asb.com [165.254.128.75]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA05542; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:49:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:49:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199509230249.VAA05542@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Chittick on Rumi Cc: islam-l@ulkyvm.bitnet X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Excerpt from William Chittick's introduction to his <> (Albany: SUNY Press, 1983) p. 7-11. Rumi's voluminous works present a kaleidoscopic image of God, man, the world, and the interrelationship of these three realities. But in spite of the often bewildering complexity of the picture Rumi paints, all his expositions and explanations are so infused with a common perfume and so harmonious that one can readily agree with those who say that they are all reducible to a single sentence or phrase. Although his teachings can probably never be encompassed by any systematic exposition, certainly all of them express a single reality, the overriding reality of Rumi's existence and of Islam itself: "There is no god but God." ... But the Western reader faces a number of obstacles to reading and understanding Rumi's works. Leaving aside the well-known drawbacks of translations in general, there remain the constant references to Islamic teachings with which the reader may not be familiar. Rumi's universe is shaped by the Koran, the Prophet, and the Moslem saints, just as Dante's is shaped by Christ, the Bible, and the church. But fortunately, Rumi's message is so universal and he is so liberal in his use of imagery from sources common to all human experience that this obstacle is not a fundamental one. ... These then are the three dimensions of Sufi teaching: the Law, the Way, and the Truth; or knowledge, works, and attainment to God; or theory, practice, and spiritual realization. Knowledge of God, man, and the world derive ultimately from God Himself, primarily by means of revelation, i.e. -- in the context of Islam -- the Koran and the Hadith of the Prophet; and secondarily by means of inspiration or "unveiling," i.e. the spiritual vision of the saints, or the realized Sufis. Knowledge provides the illumination whereby man can see everything in its proper place. Thus "knowledge," or the theoretical dimension of religion, which becomes codified in the form of the Divine Law, situates man in the total universe, defining his nature and responsibilities as a human being. Knowledge and theory find their complimentary dimension in practice, or the Way, which is determined by the "works" or Sunnah of the Prophet, the norm for all God-directed human activity. To follow the Sufi path is to obey the commands and prohibitions of God according to the model provided by His Prophet: "You have a good example in God's Messenger, for whosoever hopes for God and the last day, and remembers God often" (Koran xxxiii 21). "Say (oh Muhammad)! 'If you love God, follow me, and God will love you and forgive you your sins'" (iii 31). More specifically the Sufi Way is to follow the model provided by the Prophet's representatives on earth, the saints, who are the *shaykhs* or spiritual masters. From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 18:38:02 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17419; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:38:06 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17399; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:38:03 -0400 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA25823 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:38:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:38:02 -0400 From: TIMFAM@aol.com Message-Id: <950922223801_106465513@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: How intelligent should one be? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Have we not all heard the story of Lylia and Madjanun (sorry I can't spell) The punch line goes "oh but if you could see her with my eyes" I applaud the devotion showed the the earlier posts. keep the faith Beloveds of God Iman Jackson From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 01:07:30 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29611; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:06:46 -0400 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29584; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:06:44 -0400 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzijk14385; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:06:42 -0400 Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:05:58 PDT Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Fri, 22 Sep 95 19:48:14 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 01:07:37 GMT From: Caravan To: tariqas@world.std.com, khadim@forthd.dcl.com Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 01:07:30 GMT+6 Subject: intelligence Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Mailserver down, catching up on responses Peace be with you Otersen Mathias. The answer to your question, how intelligent do we have to be, is in the hadith of the Prophet (S) "Paradise is inhabited mostly by fools and simpletons". I'm tempted to ask some of you to write to me when we all find ourselves in the Afterlife. There is no harm in reading Qur'an and a biography of the Prophet (S), and in fact it would take you two days to do so. Now, you wouldn't learn them both backwards and forwards in that time, but you would be two books ahead of many who try to pass themselves off as Sufis these days. Seriously (very seriously, considering your last posting), mystic knowledge of God IS the source of the Holy Qur'an, and mystic knowledge IS the state of the Rasul of God. What you think, someone make this up and fool everyone for 14+ centuries? What you think, God speak to humankind and not ask us to shape up a little, and help us with some guidance and a good human example out of love for us? Now the rest of you guys go easy on Otersen here, and be good Muslims, not bad Muslims like the West afraid of, okay? Strange it is to be wished peace by this man after what he say about Allah and Allah's Qur'an and the Messenger, and the Messenger's example and what he say, but you know I give him heart-y "wa 'aleikum as-salaam, akhi!" anyway. - Daniel Muzaffer Donnell -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Thu Sep 21 01:22:59 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00240; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:08:13 -0400 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00231; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:08:12 -0400 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzijk14487; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:08:09 -0400 Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:06:06 PDT Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Fri, 22 Sep 95 19:49:19 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 01:23:06 GMT From: Caravan To: tariqas@world.std.com, khadim@forthd.dcl.com Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 01:22:59 GMT+6 Subject: not by Rumi Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you, Tanzen Frank Gaude and friends The ghazal "What do you suggest, O Moslems..." was not by Mevlana Jelaleddin Rumi, and the author is unknown. Scribes and copyists commonly entered their own poetry and the poetry of others they admired into books they were paid per page to copy to increase the length and to preserve them under auspicious circumstances. This ghazal began appearing in later copies of the Diwan-i Shams-i Tabriz- i, which was not collected until about 50 years after the death of Mevlana, and there are no original copies extant for comparison. Scholars like Badi-uz-Zaman Furuzanfar of the University of Teheran and Dr Erkan Turkman, head of the department of Eastern languages at Seljuk University in Konya, estimate that about 1/5 of the Diwan consists of copyists' interpolations, including this ghazal. Careless writers like Afzal Iqbal insist it is by Rumi. Nice poem, but not by Mevlana. The Diwan is such a problem-ridden collection that English orientalists like Arberry and Nicholson took it on only fragment by fragment. Nadir Khalidi's collection was mentioned here by me several months ago. Very good selection and translations, deserves better paper and type. Maybe for the next collection? (hint) All of the commonly-given Diwan was translated into a modern language, Turkish, by the late esteemed Abdulbaqi Gopinarlu, and it is now being translated section by section into English by a Turkish MD in Lake Isabella under the auspices of the Society For Understanding Mevlana. - Daniel Muzaffer Donnell -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 23:36:15 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11807; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:36:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:36:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199509230336.AA11807@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Sat Sep 23 23:35:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11765; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:36:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id NAA11155; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:35:53 +1000 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:35:41 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: TARIQAS ANNOUNCEMENT To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII unsubscribe tariqas From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 15:44:51 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04364; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 01:50:14 -0400 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04349; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 01:50:13 -0400 Received: from netcom21.netcom.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzijv06333; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 01:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by netcom21.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id WAA01497; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:44:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:44:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: How intelligent should one be? To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950922223801_106465513@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: I've been watching this posting and not paying very much attention to the thread. Tonight it struck me as funny. Itellegence seems kind of inate. therefore, it seems, one should be only as intelegent as one is no more, no less. Hu a'allah Hal From tariqas-approval Fri Sep 22 20:03:01 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03165; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 06:03:08 -0400 Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03152; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 06:03:06 -0400 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id DAA13061 for ; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 03:03:01 -0700 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 03:03:01 -0700 From: informe@best.com Message-Id: <199509231003.DAA13061@blob.best.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Trusting the heart Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A I had dinner with a friend the other night - the friend who had introduced me to Sufism - and mentioned some of my characteristic problems with the path. "So many of the issues I encounter, and so many of the postings in Tariqas, are about the issue of exerting your own judgement versus trusting the shaykh." He said, "Look into your heart for the answer." I said, "What if you can't trust in what you think is your 'heart'? My heart is corrupt; that's why I need a shaykh." "If your heart is corrupt, nothing is going to help. That's the western answer, anyway." I sighed and took another sip of my mango lassi and looked out the windows at the Palo Alto street crowd at dusk laughing and talking as they walked, carefree; like myself, some of the most materially privileged people in the world. A new Porsche Carerra pulled up to the curb near the restaurant. "You know, Nick, I'm like you. The rituals, the observances, the deference, the turbans - it all comes hard to me. I feel like it drives out the reality of what I experience when I'm alone and quiet and reaching inward soundlessly. Drowns it out with mechanical repetition and noise and distracting activity." "Well, do what comes naturally to you." "But addiction and heedlessness and triviality come naturally to me too. Maybe prayer by myself, for myself, isolated from others, is a bad thing, something that reinforces my separation and my ego's sense of specialness. Maybe I need to be in congregation. I don't know. Can I know? Is the sense of being in free-fall, unable to feel secure in this, in itself a lesson? Why can't I learn what I need to? It feels like the machinery is jammed." He said nothing, but looked uncomfortable; he has the same set of considerations, and as a result won't sit with any tariqat. He finally said, "The patched robe, the bowl, the turbans, they are all the externals. Don't focus on them." "But Sufis don't act for no reason - the shaykhs make every gesture tell. If we could extract the juice from the symbols, we wouldn't need the ritual, is that it?" "I think so." "Well, Sufism is not books, either, but Sufis wrote many books. What does this mean?" "Books are useful, I guess." The tandoori chicken came sizzling on an iron platter; the nan was hot. We ate. I looked out the window again into the dark. Across the planet men were in every state imaginable - being born, dying, transfiguration and despair, love and indifference, opium oblivion and passionate intensity. I thought back to the _Principia Discordia_, where the Polyfather, Malaclypse the Younger, invoked the goddess Eris into a tabletop radio. "You don't look so good, Mal. Is something troubling you?" "Oh, Goddess, I beseech you. Everywhere there is trouble and strife, brother against brother, parents desert their children and children turn on their parents, some kill for love, others love to kill, and there is confusion in every heart." "What is wrong with that, if that is what they want?" "But nobody wants it." "Oh. Well, then, stop." Eris then turned herself into an aspirin commercial and "left the Polyfather stranded alone with his species." Hamza From tariqas-approval Sat Sep 23 10:33:16 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20209; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:34:17 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20197; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:34:16 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:34:16 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Trusting the heart To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199509231003.DAA13061@blob.best.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Sat, 23 Sep 1995 informe@best.com wrote: > I had dinner with a friend the other night - the friend who had introduced > me to Sufism - and mentioned some of my characteristic problems with the > path. > > "So many of the issues I encounter, and so many of the postings in Tariqas, > are about the issue of exerting your own judgement versus trusting the > shaykh." > > He said, "Look into your heart for the answer." > > I said, "What if you can't trust in what you think is your 'heart'? My > heart is corrupt; that's why I need a shaykh." > [rest of very well written post deleted] A story I'm inventing for the occasion: There was a plague in the land. Many people were dying. Others were terribly sick. Others were mildly sick, and would recover on their own, somehow. Others were mildly sick, and would get much worse. Some people were perfectly healthy, and would stay that way (perhaps because they were living naturally clean lives and thereby staying away from the pestilence). There were many doctors in the land. Some of them offered cures for everybody. Some of them offered cures for just selected groups of sick people. Others specialized in preventitive medicine. Others did research that might someday lead to a cure. Others were on sabbatical. You recognize that you might be sick. So, you go to one of these doctors for help. He/she tells you what to do. He/she tells you that he/she offers a certain extended treatment for the condition, and that if you embark upon that treatment, you will be under his/her care. Before embarking upon that treatment, it may be wise to consult other doctors. But, once you have started that treatment, for the duration of the treatment, it is probably not wise to use other medications that have not been permitted by your doctor. By the way, your doctor may at some point refer you to another doctor for some specialized treatment. Does being under the care of a doctor mean that you are not responsible for taking care of your own health? No. You can do many things to assist the treatment plan (e.g. maintaining good nutrition). There may be things that your doctor tells you to do that you simply refuse to do. You have that right. There may be consequences, but it is certainly your right -- it is your health that is at stake. And, although doctors may at times like to think they are perfect, they are not. There may be times when you know your own condition better than they do. If your inner sense is that your doctor is making a mistake in your treatment plan, perhaps, Insh'Allah, that inner sense is more reliable than the doctor. Allah is closer than the vein in your neck -- and will provide you direct guidance if you are able and willing to listen. So, there are times when you must make choices -- do I follow my doctor's advice, or the voice of my inner guidance? But, this needn't be an either/or choice, and your inner voice itself, Insh'Allah, will guide you to what you should do. Probably you willl be told you should talk the matter over with your doctor. Perhaps you will be told to consult another physician. Perhaps you will be told to "laugh yourself to health" like Norman Cousins did. In all cases, your inner voice (Allah, Insh'Allah) will be guiding you -- just as it guided you to the doctor in the first place. Allah knows what is best for you, and, Insh'Allah, by just being TRULY open to doing Allah's will, you will be led where you need to go. There is no contradiction. You are following your inner voice to go to a doctor and following his/her treatment. If your inner voice REALLY tells you to go elsewhere, then that is what you must follow. Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval Sat Sep 23 06:27:36 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18181; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 11:28:01 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18165; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 11:28:00 -0400 Received: from sle7.asb.com (sle7.asb.com [165.254.128.77]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA08318 for ; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 11:27:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 11:27:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199509231627.LAA08318@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: The soldier-angels X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: The Soldier-Angels ------------------ Excerpt from Shayh Hisham Kabbani's <>, Chicago: KAZI, 1995. 3:124-125: "And when thou (Muhammad) didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down to your help? Nay, but if ye persevere, and keep from evil, and the enemy attack you suddenly, your Lord will help you with five thousand angels sweeping on." 9:40: "Then God caused His piece of reassurance to descend upon him (the Prophet) and supported him with hosts ye cannot see." 37:173: "And that Our host, they verily would be the victors." 48: 4,7: "To God belong the soldiers of heaven and earth, and God is Knower, Wise." 67:20: "Who is he that will be an army unto you to help you instead of the Beneficent?" 74:31: "And none but your Lord knows the number of His soldiers." These verses have two explanations, external and internal. In support of the righteous people who followed the Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, God has ordered three thousand of the angels created from the light of the attribute "al-Jalil," "The Majestic," to descend and protect the believers against terror and devils. These angels were "sent down," in other words, came down from the Seventh Heaven which is the highest heaven. The second verse shows that God has sent the angels carrying signs of special significance which were visible to the believers. These signs were crowns of gold on their head, which represent the richest and most precious state, as these angels came from the most precious state of perfection in the first heaven. Through the light of their crowns these angels were able to strike dead whomever came in front of them. At the occurrence of that event in the battle of Badr, believers were given the power to see those angels and to believe in their support by direct sight. The internal meaning of these verses, which very few believers experience, is based on the fact that in the Holy Koran God has ninety-nine names and attributes, whereas in the Bible He has nine hundred and one, and in the Torah, two thousand. In the first of these two verses God mentions that these angels have been sent down from the highest heaven which is in the highest state of perfection near the divine presence. Each angel was carrying one attribute of the three thousand attributes that exist in the three Holy Books. This means that holy support came from all three heavenly books and was given to the believers and their Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him. The symbol here is that of the unity of religion and the oneness of faith. It enabled those believers to understand that Islam accepted Jesus and Moses and the Books that they brought. The second verse defines a firm reality that egoistic devils cannot reach you as long as you are aware of God's presence in your heart. This presence elevates you to a state of perfection comprising five different levels. Each level consists of one thousand different layers or states, and each layer is represented by one of the five thousand angels mentioned. When you ascend from one level to another, you will be dressed with the power of the angel of that level. Each level increases your heart's power twofold so as to embrace all the power and knowledge of that level. This increased light provides the key to the next level, and so forth from the first to the last of the five thousand levels. At that time, you will be a light from God's Light and a deputy among His angels on earth, shining like a sun on a bright day. From tariqas-approval Sat Sep 23 21:34:59 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09397; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:35:08 -0400 Received: from venere.inet.it by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09326; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:35:05 -0400 Received: from perseo.inet.it (perseo.inet.it [194.20.15.172]) by venere.inet.it (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA266157 for ; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 19:34:59 +0200 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 19:34:59 +0200 Message-Id: <199509231734.TAA266157@venere.inet.it> X-Sender: paterna@pop.inet.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: paterna@perseo.it Subject: Re: ***Tariqa Muhammdiyya????**** Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: 'Assalaam 'Alaykum >Could anyone provide me with some information about the Tariqa >Muhammadiyya? What is the lineage of this tariqa? Who is it's present >Grand Sheikh? And, is there any book or article written about it? I found few notices about Muhammadiyya in a recent italian book on the history of sufism ("Storia del sufismo" Milan 1995) by Gabriele Mandel Khan, khalifa Jerrahi-Halveti in Italy. I try to translate them for you. "Muhammadiyya: name of a tariqah that wanted refer directly to Muhammad, without intermediaries, founded by 'Ali Khawwas and Sha'rani" (pag. 186). In the XVIII century there was a political crisis in the islamic empires (Safavide, Ottoman), so some people "eliminating the spiritual rites and the metaphysical practices and researches, cliched the importance of Muhammad [...]. Some turuq called themselves Tariqa Muhammadiyyah. Muhammad 'acted', didn't 'contemplated'; He fighted. So these Turuq followed 'this' example" (pag. 206). That's all. It's not much, but I hope it help you in your research. peace Domenico ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Domenico Paterna | Come, come whoever you are, paterna@perseo.it | An unbeliever, a fire-worshipper, come. via Antonio Lecchi, 20 | Our convent is not of desperation. 20143 Milan | Even if you have broken your vows a hundred times, Italy | Come, come again. tel. +39-2-58104410 | ===Mevlana Jalalu'ddin Rumi=== ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From tariqas-approval Sat Sep 23 08:23:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02106; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 14:27:19 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02092; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 14:27:17 -0400 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA13154; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 18:25:08 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id aa05821; 23 Sep 95 18:26 WET Date: Sat, 23 Sep 95 13:23 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Re: How intelligent should one be? Message-Id: <62950923182326/0007106488PJ1EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >>I've been watching this posting and not paying very much attention to the thread. Tonight it struck me as funny. Itellegence seems kind of inate. therefore, it seems, one should be only as intelegent as one is no more, no less. >> The reason I brought up the question in the first place was not to be funny, but because I do not know how the question of inteligence is answered by Islam. I do know that in the Catholic church that one is 'saved' by baptism. For Catholics it does not matter if you have ever read the Bible, or if you are mentally retarded as to the point of not even being able to speak; if you were baptized a Catholic and you have not commited any mortal sins in the eyes of God, then you are saved. I was looking for a similar sort of description of what 'saves' under Islam. It seemed to me that a lot of emphasis was being placed on works-of-intelligence. Perhaps the critera for 'what saves' varies with each of Allah's creations? If this is true, then it would seem very presumptious of anybody to suggest a course of action for another unless they know Allah's customized requirements for that specific person. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Sat Sep 23 11:34:18 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29301; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 15:34:21 -0400 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29279; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 15:34:19 -0400 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA24360 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 15:34:18 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 15:34:18 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950923153416_27300639@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque ... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Indeed, if one considers the evidence that partnership-based societies existed for some 20,000 - 30,000 years on this planet, one might conclude that an accurate term for the prevailing sentiment of the last 4,000 - 6,000 years would be "the cult of the masculine". ;-) I'm not sure that this is entirely accurate but bypassing some the the intellectual argument I would like to point out that there is one fundamental difference between the society of those time and now. That is that they were often based upon kinship relations and so there was no real need for hierarchy. Hierarchy is naturally masculine and when there is no corresponding and ballancing feminie then indeed it might be called 'cult of the masculine' However, what I think is being called into being these day, and being called most strongly by women but also by men is centered in our desire for democracy. Indeed there are many Islamic groups who have rejected democracy and the implied personal freedom therin as a value they wish to hole. However, this value is exactly what, it seems to me, is being called into being. What I mean by personal freedom is first the recognition and value of the 'outsider' the inherent value of the individual despite their relationship or kinship to us. Secondly, that the individual is free to pursue their own unfoldment limited only by what we might term the 'other.' This is what it seems to me to be comming through in such a beautiful fashion and is is changing the traditional relationship between the feminie (symbolized by the friend, the one who brings light into the dark, rebirth ) and the masculine (symbolized by the master, the one who dies in progression toward the light of Allah, fana). These have allways been two notes in a chord sung at the same time but for the last few thousand years they have not been held in equal value, indeed, as I said some have chosen to not value the femine aspect of what we in the west call freedom. Asha From tariqas-approval Sat Sep 23 09:34:56 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29517; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 15:35:01 -0400 Received: from indy25.gclab.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29497; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 15:34:57 -0400 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by indy25.gclab.missouri.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02281; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 14:34:56 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 14:34:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@indy25.gclab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: ***Tariqa Muhammdiyya????**** In-Reply-To: <199509231734.TAA266157@venere.inet.it> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 23 Sep 1995 paterna@perseo.it wrote: > 'Assalaam 'Alaykum > > >Could anyone provide me with some information about the Tariqa > >Muhammadiyya? What is the lineage of this tariqa? Who is it's present > >Grand Sheikh? And, is there any book or article written about it? > Salam, I am not too familiar with the tariqa Muhammadiya, but I do remember reading an article about it. It is included in Anne Marie Schimmels "...And Muhammad is His Messenger." One of the the chapters is called "The Muhammadan Path," or something of the sort. In it she descrobes the formation of Sufi tariqas that wanted to get away from the ridiculousness that entered some of the Indian tariqas and go back to the real source of all knowledge in this world: our Master, Muhammad - peace be upon him. She describes a few of the ideas of Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi (ra) and then she talks about Tariqa Muhammadiya. Initially it was started by a man whose name I always forget, but he was Khwaja Mir Dard's father. Mir Dard was the biggest exponent of this tariqa, and it is essentially an offshoot (a very, very FAR offshoot) of the Naqshbandi-Mujaddadi tariqa (of Shaikh Ahmed Sirhindi (ra)). So, it developed like this: Naqshbandi, then Mujaddidi, then Tariqa Muhammadiya. I don't remember the rest of it's history, because I read it a while back, but that is the only reference that I know of in English about the Tariqa. You might want to check the magazines like Muslim World, of Iqbal Quarterly to see if anyone has written asn article about them. I do, though recommend the book by Schimmel. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 24 10:15:30 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29323; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:47 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29314; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:45 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA27663 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:15:30 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:15:30 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950924141529_107620543@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: beit ul ma'mour Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 95-09-22 21:53:18 EDT, you write: >Subj: Re: beit ul ma'mour >This may be off subject, however that never stopped me before. When I >look at the phrase beit ul ma'mour I origionally thought this to be french. >Owing to cross cultural similarities in the roots of the words, >so, I'm going to make this up. >amor is french/spanish/italian root for love. >if beit is house or bait, and ul is of >Then house of the lord is also >bait of love.. >bait of the lord, >house of the lord. >and the house of the Lord's love > >This is a great pun. A playful idea: this might work better if it were bait ul-mon-amour, or beit un amour... >It is interesting to imagine that there is a place to go to find the >lord, to be with the prophet, allah or in your own heart. I do like that idea, even if this etymology isn't convincing. thank you, Hal/AriLeib/Tzadok and a sweet year for you (if that's appropriate, given your names) .... in peace - for all beings, Jinavamsa > >Hal >AriLeib >Tzadok From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 24 10:19:51 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29358; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:54 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29345; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:53 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA10469 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:51 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:51 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950924141950_107620593@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Please answer! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 95-09-22 22:21:43 EDT, you write: >Salam, Jinavamsa, >The only reason why I think that I have a bit more of a clue as to >what brother Omar was talking about is because he is my brother. Not >by faith, but by blood, and we've discussed this topic before. I'm >not as conceited as my previous mail may make it seem. I did not get a sense of anything conceited in what you wrote/in what I read. in peace, Jinavamsa >Salam, > >Jawad. > > > From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 24 10:19:53 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29382; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:55 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29354; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:54 -0400 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA24774 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:53 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:53 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950924141953_107620637@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: not by Rumi Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 95-09-23 10:36:49 EDT, you write: >Scholars like Badi-uz-Zaman Furuzanfar of the University of Teheran >and Dr Erkan Turkman, head of the department of Eastern languages at >Seljuk University in Konya, estimate that about 1/5 of the Diwan >consists of copyists' interpolations, including this ghazal. Careless >writers like Afzal Iqbal insist it is by Rumi. Nice poem, but not by >Mevlana. The Diwan is such a problem-ridden collection that English >orientalists like Arberry and Nicholson took it on only fragment by >fragment. I have come across a translation by RA Nicholson (in his The Mystics of Islam) of a poem by Jalaluddin from the Persian that reads: Lo, for I to myself am unknown, now in /god's name what must I do? I adore not the Cross not the Crescent, I am not a Giaour nor a Jew. East not West, land nor sea is my home, ... I was not born in China afar, nor in Saqsin and not in Bulghar; nor in India ... (p. 161). i don't know what this means in terms of the authenticity of this poem as Rumi's, one way or the other. any clarification? thank you. in peace, Jinavamsa > >Nadir Khalidi's collection was mentioned here by me several months >ago. Very good selection and translations, deserves better paper and >type. Maybe for the next collection? (hint) > >All of the commonly-given Diwan was translated into a modern language, >Turkish, by the late esteemed Abdulbaqi Gopinarlu, and it is now >being translated section by section into English by a Turkish MD in >Lake Isabella under the auspices of the Society For Understanding >Mevlana. > >- Daniel Muzaffer Donnell >-- >Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com > > From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 24 10:19:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29413; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:57 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29392; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:56 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA03805 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:55 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:55 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950924141948_107620575@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque ... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Farrunnissa: in English, you're right, the word cult has connotations of sect, often wierd sect. in the context of the French sub-title (culte de la fe'minite'), the term cult conjures up the sense of respecting, honoring, cultivating what is feminine. (The French often keeps more of the literal Latin meaning than we get in English, and in this case, the Latin root is colere, to honor, cherish, revere, worship, ... to cite the key meanings here.) So you're right. maybe the publishers should have heard your observation before going into publication! As for the last 6000 years, in some ways it's been a matter of great (technological) advances brought forth by selected members of a species that often seems to be going backwards (IMO and in such opinions as that of the Indic vision of this being the kali yuga [a spiritual dark ages]). thank you for your beautiful postings. in peace to all beings, Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-09-22 22:16:56 EDT, you write: >ubj: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque ... >Date: 95-09-22 22:16:56 EDT >From: NurLuna@aol.com >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@world.std.com >To: tariqas@world.std.com > >Great Peace and Shining Joy to you, friend Jinavamsa! > >In a message dated 95-09-18, you wrote [in part]: > >>The understanding that there was a non-hierarchical peaceful society before >>the descent of the Aryans into the Indian sub-continent (taking it over, so >>to speak, long before the British, and ultimately calling themselves, >neither >>Indian nor European, the Indo-European culture) is talked about in a work by >>the Belgian writer Andre von Lysebeth. He talks of les saigneurs [those who >>cause the blood to flow, as in battle] becoming les seigneurs [the lords]. >>(It's a play on words, as the two are homonyms in French.) >>It is in English translation, but I have the book as Tantra: le culte de la >>fe'minite' (Flammarion, ISBN 2.08.201351.0); Engl. is Tantra: The Cult of >the >>Feminine (Weiser, ISBN 0-87728-845-3). The book is rather big are carefully >>written. (The French text is over 450 pages. I haven't seen the English, >>which is scheduled to be published in October.) > >What an unfortunate choice of title! Does the term "cult" have the same >implications in French as it does in English? If so, then in what light is >this book presenting its subject? If not, then perhaps another choice would >have been better for the English translation. > >Indeed, if one considers the evidence that partnership-based societies >existed for some 20,000 - 30,000 years on this planet, one might conclude >that an accurate term for the prevailing sentiment of the last 4,000 - 6,000 >years would be "the cult of the masculine". ;-) > >Farrunnissa > > >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Fri Sep 22 22:19:39 1995 >Return-Path: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by >emin04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA05375; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 >22:19:37 -0400 >Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) > id PAA16006; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:29:59 -0400 >Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) > id AA10392; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:29:51 -0400 >Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) > id AA10373; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:29:50 -0400 >Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA08617 for >tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:25:34 -0400 >Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:25:34 -0400 >From: NurLuna@aol.com >Message-Id: <950922152534_26524045@emout04.mail.aol.com> >To: tariqas@world.std.com >Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque ... >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: tariqas@world.std.com From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 24 10:19:57 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29440; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:20:00 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29420; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:58 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA03820 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:57 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:19:57 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950924141956_107620658@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: ***Tariqa Muhammdiyya????**** Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 95-09-23 15:40:54 EDT, you write: >Subj: Re: ***Tariqa Muhammdiyya????**** >Date: 95-09-23 15:40:54 EDT >From: c640429@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (Jawad Qureshi) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@world.std.com >To: tariqas@world.std.com >CC: tariqas@world.std.com > >On Sat, 23 Sep 1995 paterna@perseo.it wrote: > >> 'Assalaam 'Alaykum >> >> >Could anyone provide me with some information about the Tariqa >> >Muhammadiyya? What is the lineage of this tariqa? Who is it's present >> >Grand Sheikh? And, is there any book or article written about it? >> > >Salam, > >I am not too familiar with the tariqa Muhammadiya, but I do remember >reading an article about it. It is included in Anne Marie Schimmels >"...And Muhammad is His Messenger." One of the the chapters is called >"The Muhammadan Path," or something of the sort. In it she descrobes the >formation of Sufi tariqas that wanted to get away from the ridiculousness >that entered some of the Indian tariqas and go back to the real source of >all knowledge in this world: our Master, Muhammad - peace be upon him. >She describes a few of the ideas of Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi (ra) and then >she talks about Tariqa Muhammadiya. > >Initially it was started by a man whose name I always forget, but he was >Khwaja Mir Dard's father. Mir Dard was the biggest exponent of this >tariqa, and it is essentially an offshoot (a very, very FAR offshoot) of >the Naqshbandi-Mujaddadi tariqa (of Shaikh Ahmed Sirhindi (ra)). > >So, it developed like this: Naqshbandi, then Mujaddidi, then Tariqa >Muhammadiya. I don't remember the rest of it's history, because I read >it a while back, but that is the only reference that I know of in English >about the Tariqa. You might want to check the magazines like Muslim >World, of Iqbal Quarterly to see if anyone has written asn article about >them. I do, though recommend the book by Schimmel. > >Salam, >Jawad. > given your mention of Annemarie Schimmel, I have also found some references to the Tariqa-yi Muhammadiyya in her Mystical Dimensions of Islam. she says that the founder was Nasir Muhammad `Andalib in Delhi ... (p.511) she translates the term as "the Muhammadan Path" in peace, Jinavamsa > > > From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 24 05:55:45 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06461; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 15:58:59 -0400 Received: from netcom19.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06444; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 15:58:58 -0400 Received: by netcom19.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id MAA19598; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 12:55:45 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 12:55:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: beit ul ma'mour To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950924141529_107620543@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 24 Sep 1995 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > >if beit is house or bait, and ul is of > >Then house of the lord is also > >bait of love.. > >bait of the lord, > >house of the lord. > >and the house of the Lord's love > > > >This is a great pun. > > A playful idea: this might work better if it were bait ul-mon-amour, or beit > un amour... > > >It is interesting to imagine that there is a place to go to find the > >lord, to be with the prophet, allah or in your own heart. > > I do like that idea, even if this etymology isn't convincing. > thank you, Hal/AriLeib/Tzadok and a sweet year for you (if that's > appropriate, given your names) .... Wasalam alekum, Merci bo coup mon amor Us in peace - for all beings, > Jinavamsa > > > > >Hal > >AriLeib > >Tzadok