From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Fri Aug 16 11:15:47 1996 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:57:32 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #102 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 13 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 102 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:03:17 -0700 Subject: Can Allah do it? Can Allah create another Allah? - -- Michael Moore home page --> http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 01:16:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Can Allah do it? Michael J. Moore wrote: > > Can Allah create another Allah? > > -- > Michael Moore home page --> http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 Does a question always has an answer? -- maarof ------------------------------ From: Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor Date: 13 Aug 96 13:08:41 Subject: Can Allah do it? Micheal Moore: >>> Can Allah create another Allah? please see:- Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 4. And there is none like unto Him. Fi Aman Illah Sayeed ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:32:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Can Allah do it? Michael J. Moore wrote: > > Can Allah create another Allah? Oh, you... such questions can be asked at earth level. If we define Allah as infinite, and that there can be only be one infinite, by definition, then Allah is The Infinite, The Absolute. Thus, there is nothing that is not Allah, all the other "infinities" are contained within the "body" of Allah. Mathematics have come up with many "infinities" to define things real and non-real... but I think you get my drift: there is only "one", though there are an infinite number of levels within that One, and that One is undefineable, thus unknowable at the so-called human level, earth level... finite mind has much trouble with infinity as it does with "zero". And you know, all our words have something to do with a relationship beween finite and THAT infinite. They have something to do with free will and getting home, aligning our wills with that of laws laid down coming from Infinite... thus the phrase, "Align our will with that of our Fate," such is the path to being first human, then Infinite. Of course, all this is just my opinions coming from observations through the senses, from within and from without, from intuition. Let's keep this thread going, if you are of a mind, of a will, and see just how far it can be carried within this interactive, word producing medium called Internet. Right now I am trying to digest the responses received to the "connected aspect" of the Fatwa... each has a subtle but difference connotation... very interesting. Soon we will be of one tongue! Peace and love, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Ecopsychology News Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:11:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Good Morning! Hello William/Panther Eagle, So wonderful to hear from you! Only yesterday I was wondering where you have been. :-) This Net fascinates me too. I see so many possibilities; sometimes it is overwhelming. Haven't quite figured out how to deal with that yet. Cheers, Claudia * + + + + Join ECOPSYCHOLOGY at listserv@sjuvm.stjohns.edu + subscribe ecopsychology firstname lastname + "Integrating Mind and Nature" >|< >|< claudir@hubcap.clemson.edu ------------------------------ From: "K.Ahmad" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:10:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Can Allah do it? Peace be upon you >Can Allah create another Allah? > Hmmmmm, I don't know, my capacity is limited in that sense. I can only repeat what Holy Books tell me. But, I do know that humans can. Kaleem ------------------------------ From: Maqam1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:46:47 -0400 Subject: Re: So Long/Maqam1(Important) In a message dated 96-08-12 02:25:36 EDT, you write: >>>>1. I'm only a slave servant to ALLAH one of HIS creations who has a >>>>lot to work on from with-in. >>>> >>>How is it that ALLAH would ask and reward servitude >>>on the part of human beings? Is not ALLAH infinitely >>>powerful and beyond all need? >>> >A question remains unanswered here, if you >have nothing to write that's entirely OK! > Of course ALLAH does'nt need us and I never said he did, We all need ALLAH because when we came from the womb we knew nothing. To answer another Q" on ego; Once I had stop being driven by ego and I was'nt letting Shaitan(Satan) be the director of my life and learn that ALLAHU AKBAR Min Kulli Shayi (which means ALLAH is greator than everything) I finally seen Kenyatta for who he was a jerk, arrogant fool, one who needed ALLAH more than the next person, Why? Because at that point I was His worse creation, slave servant etc... >>>>2. My purpose for being is to worship GOD and to have humble >>>>compassion toward all creation from the smallest insect to the >>largest >>>mammal. >>>> >>>Are you then a vegetarian? Aren't even plants >>>included in "all creation" and therefore due >>>"humble compassion?" >>> >>Know I'm not a vegetarian and according to the laws of islam hunting >>for sport is forbidden to me, so to take substance from the plant life >is >>to only take what I shall consume. I also make walking staffs & canes it >is >>forbidden for me to cut down a living tree. So my friend Bruce does this >show >>compassion? >> >I cannot read your heart, oh shaykh, through >this device. Let me say that if your dietary >practices come from awareness of suffering >and of our responsibility to those living >things less powerful than us, then there may >well be compassion in them. If they are the >result of what is found in scripture, then >there is only obedience, which is a hollow, >mechanical thing and by its nature not >compassionate. > > Compassion if any comes from what ALLAH has taught me through others, seeing my true ego was guiding me, and yes the criteria of my life the Quran. So I could never think that I'm so great fore I can take that return trip in my mind and see where I came from and where ALLAH has me today. P.S. You can send all of our transmissions to any list you would like, TFA Your Friend Maqam1 ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:44:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Can Allah do it? maarof wrote: > > Michael J. Moore wrote: > > > > Can Allah create another Allah? > > > > -- > > Does a question always has an answer? -- maarof No, not when the question is lauched from a lie. And the lie here is 'created'. We have taken the idea of divine creation and shrunk it into our tiny notion of what creation means. Firstly we have taken a concept that is of necessity eternal in perspective and shrunk it into the temporal relm and stuck a label on it 'c-r-e-a-t-e-d'. Now we can verbally bat it back and forth like some kind of theological ping-pong ball. But it is all nonsense because we are only playing with our concept which has no likeness to anything real. This taking of something higher and dragging it down into something lower is the very definition or pornography. Had somebody choosen to reprimand me for me for daring to ask such a question, they would have been well justified! > Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah > > 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; > > 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; > > 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; > > 4. And there is none like unto Him. Absolutely right! He has said "SAY:" or "SAY THIS" This is all that we are capable of dragging down the rungs of Jacob's ladder without commiting heresy. This is all that can be SAID. Anything else, we must go up the ladder to the relm where things cannot be know by speaking. And speaking of speaking, I've been doing far to much of it and will now stop before I manage to crown my own stupidity. As -salaamu 'alaykum - -- Michael Moore ------------------------------ From: Maqam1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:46:53 -0400 Subject: Re: So Long/ (Harden Ego) Not to offend In a message dated 96-08-12 01:29:44 EDT, you write: >Maqam1: >>>Dear MP if you wanted to know about ego then you should have said so, Let's >clear your mind once and for all. >I was in seclusion for 5 years in strict meditation and prayer and when I >arose from the darkness of my harden ego it wasn't harden at all because I >return riding it and not it still riding ME.<< > >MP:I hope the mention of 5 years in meditation was not to impress anyone. >Perhaps I don't understand your use of words. I don't understand the idea >that >"you" were riding ego instead of ego riding "you". Is the "you" different >from >ego? I'm not trying to impress you or anyone else I'm justing letting you understand me through the words on the page and that I was a person who was driven by ego and at one point was only concern about self without any strong belief system. IMHO who am I to impress, who are you to impress? Together or Apart we are nothing, powerless human-beings. We came to this earth knowing nothing and whatever we have learn it is truly a blessing at least to myself. Peace & Love not ment to offend you or anyone who reads this, MAQAM1 ------------------------------ From: Maqam1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:48:34 -0400 Subject: Re: So Long/ Tanzen(Important) In a message dated 96-08-12 10:39:11 EDT, you write: >You are giving it your all, Maqam1, but what comes to mind: > > "The way of love is not > a subtle argument. > The door there > is devastation. > Birds make great sky-circles > of their freedom. > How did they learn it? > They fall, and falling, > they're given wings." > --Jelaluddin Rumi > >Presently my plate is filled with the orders: > >Reduce need to defend, judge, or rationalize. So I just state my >experiences, thoughts, as best I can, and post and respond to what seems >useful coming from others, and then move along the groove, else the >groove becomes a rut. > >I try to follow these orders. > >Peace, dear brother, > >tanzen > > > > Salaam tanzen, When this converstation started from the other list It was suppose to be peaceful and all I had to do was answer one Q", well now my brother you see where that has gotten me, thanks for your observation because if you can see I'm becoming defensive I must post a very sweet it's time to move on, because this is getting OLD. Your Brother, Maqam1 ------------------------------ From: Maqam1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:47:54 -0400 Subject: Re: So Long/It's Over In a message dated 96-08-12 12:39:42 EDT, you write: >Do you see your arrogance as now purged by the grace of >ALLAH, or is there still "a lot to work on from with-in?" If >ALLAH has no need of us, how can we possibly be of service >(the work of a slave or servant) to ALLAH? For such an >omnipotent, omniscient entity, ALLAH seems rather >demanding of his weak and humble creations. Bruce I'm not here to judge you, ALLAH is the best at judging his creation. You ask something of me and I provided the information, If your purpose was to judge me because I'm muslim and you're not then my friend you have a long way to go. So as you sit with your arrogant EGO and point the finger at me just realize there are 3 fingers from your own hand pointing at the source of your problem (Just take a wild guess who), Bruce I respect everything you have said and to answer your Q" I'm still working everyday from the inside-out. Fore me the Quran & Islam is a mercy for me and I treat it as such. Enclosing I would say whatever problems you have about Islam and Muslims it was there long before you & I came into contact, so search from with-in that shall be your greatest source of relief. May ALLAH forgive me if I've said anything improper. Keep In Touch Let's End This Conversation on a positive note shall we. Sh. J-Kenyatta ------------------------------ From: Maqam1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:48:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Mother Teresa In a message dated 96-08-12 15:53:15 EDT, you write: >The fruit of silence is prayer. >The fruit of prayer is faith. >The fruit of faith is love. >The fruit of love is service. >The fruit of service is peace. > - Mother Teresa > >A friend sent me this today... >What a smile!! I wish to share the smile with all of you too! > > Thanks for the smile I needed it. Sh.J-Kenyatta ------------------------------ From: Maqam1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:50:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: So Long (pt 2)Please Read (Important) In a message dated 96-08-13 11:50:04 EDT, 71162.3340@CompuServe.COM (David Ubico) writes: >Kenyatta, > >Sorry, although it may be fortunate, that I got you re-involved in the >K. list. It was something that was on my mind and it took a month to >come out. Don't let Bruce (editor@juno.com?) get you down. I have had >personal e-mail exchanges with him, he's good at pointing out others >conditioning but is very defensive of his own which he can 'will' not >see (he probably had religion forced on him as a kid). > >K. never talked about God. He spoke of an infinite (eternal?) space, >he called mind that did not belong to us, that happens when we are >silent. This seems like a definition of God to me. ALLAH, God, spirit. >We must ask this question... Are we capable to love from the 'self', >our brain? With close observation I see we clearly can not, we can >only produce an illusion of love (I'm not saying this is bad or good). > >Therefore, to love, one has to silence the brain, not be caught up >in image, belief, dogma, ritual, symbolism which are all products of >the 'self'. You can pray what you want, but to know, to really know >beyond the conditioning > >... as Psalm 46 states.. "Be still and know that I am God", > >you have to listen. Where there is no 'me', no 'self' there can be >love, which is compassion and intelligence that comes from this >'infinite mind, space' that 'is'. > >I'm vaguely familiar with the Islamic religion. I've only read bits of >the Koran at a Barns & Nobles reading table. To me the major religions >of Judaism, Chiritainity, Islam are all so very similiar one wonders >what the fighting is all about. We, people, like to belong, making >perception of doors. Unitary perception dissolves our identity, every >bit of veneer, for there are no doors in an infinite mind. > >David > > > >From Maqam1 I just wanted to share this with everyone on Tariqas e-mail list, Salaam - --------------------- Forwarded message: From: 71162.3340@CompuServe.COM (David Ubico) To: Maqam1@aol.com (INTERNET:Maqam1@aol.com) Date: 96-08-13 11:50:04 EDT Kenyatta, Sorry, although it may be fortunate, that I got you re-involved in the K. list. It was something that was on my mind and it took a month to come out. Don't let Bruce (editor@juno.com?) get you down. I have had personal e-mail exchanges with him, he's good at pointing out others conditioning but is very defensive of his own which he can 'will' not see (he probably had religion forced on him as a kid). K. never talked about God. He spoke of an infinite (eternal?) space, he called mind that did not belong to us, that happens when we are silent. This seems like a definition of God to me. ALLAH, God, spirit. We must ask this question... Are we capable to love from the 'self', our brain? With close observation I see we clearly can not, we can only produce an illusion of love (I'm not saying this is bad or good). Therefore, to love, one has to silence the brain, not be caught up in image, belief, dogma, ritual, symbolism which are all products of the 'self'. You can pray what you want, but to know, to really know beyond the conditioning ... as Psalm 46 states.. "Be still and know that I am God", you have to listen. Where there is no 'me', no 'self' there can be love, which is compassion and intelligence that comes from this 'infinite mind, space' that 'is'. I'm vaguely familiar with the Islamic religion. I've only read bits of the Koran at a Barns & Nobles reading table. To me the major religions of Judaism, Chiritainity, Islam are all so very similiar one wonders what the fighting is all about. We, people, like to belong, making perception of doors. Unitary perception dissolves our identity, every bit of veneer, for there are no doors in an infinite mind. David ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:01:24 -0700 Subject: Re: So Long/ Tanzen(Important) Maqam1@aol.com wrote: [...] > Salaam tanzen, > When this converstation started from the other list It was suppose to be > peaceful and all I had to do was answer one Q", well now my brother you see > where that has gotten me, > thanks for your observation because if you can see I'm becoming defensive I > must post a very sweet it's time to move on, because this is getting OLD. Hello, dear Marqam1! O You of Islam and a Muslim, I wash and kiss your feet! Come, now refresh yourself under Allah's dome, this caravanserai of love, shade, and sweet juice. May the blessings be! Your servant, tanzen ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:21:49 +0700 Subject: Re: Can Allah do it? Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Dear Michael, At 09:03 AM 8/13/96 -0700, you wrote: >Can Allah create another Allah? > I think the question and the answer will not benefit you anything, is it? :-) Wassalamu'alaykum, your brother, Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: AbilKhayr@taconic.net Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 18:29:09 Subject: RE: further to carol woodsong I am pleased to see the answers to Carol's questions posted here by A N Durkee, so that I may read them. If others find it a problem, then I am sldo glad to give up this benefit. - ------------------------------------- Blessings, AbilKhayr AbilKhayr@taconic.net 8/13/96 6:29:10 PM - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:35:50 +1000 (EST) Subject: Ibn Ata'Illah's Sufi Aphorisms translated by Victor Danner Assalamu alaikum, A. N. Durkee mentioned this book (see subject heading). Do you know where I can get it? (I'm mailing to the list in case anyone else is also interested.) Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:43:40 -0700 Subject: Re: further to carol woodsong AbilKhayr@taconic.net wrote: > > I am pleased to see the answers to Carol's questions posted here by A N > Durkee, so that I may read them. If others find it a problem, then I am > sldo glad to give up this benefit. > ------------------------------------- > Blessings, > AbilKhayr I certainly find it informative how each goes about detailing a way, a path. Let us all appreciate one another, as we all are of One Mind. A N Durkee, please carry on! I am much like Wil Rogers, "I never met a man I didn't like" but for me, "I have never met a person or thing from which I couldn't learn something." Peace and love, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:47:45 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Can Allah do it? On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Michael J. Moore wrote: > Can Allah create another Allah? "Wherever you turn, there is the Face of Allah." Qur'an 2:115. This verse, I believe, helps to show that Allah is All-Encompassing. To me, the phrase "another Allah" does not even make sense, since if there was "another Allah," then Allah would not be Allah. If we say Allah is All-Encompassing, it is impossible for there to be two "All-Encompassing" Allahs, for if they are both All-Encompassing, then they must both be the same, since they both encompass all things. So there can only be one, and Allah knows best. On the other hand, if something is not All-Encompassing, then it is not Allah. So it seems to me there has to be only one Allah, but the nature of Allah being All-Encompassing. Allah knows best. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: AbilKhayr@taconic.net Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 20:01:53 Subject: RE: Ibn Ata'Illah's Sufi Aphorisms translated by Victor Danner There is an edition published in the Classics of Western Spirituality by Paulist Press, which is due to be available again after being out of stock at the publisher for a while. It is bound with Ansari's Intimate Conversations, and is published as The Book of Wisdom. I will try to get more definite info from Paulist Press and if I find out anything definite will post it to the list. - ------------------------------------- Blessings, AbilKhayr AbilKhayr@taconic.net 8/13/96 8:01:53 PM - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 19:58:41 Subject: Re: Can Allah do it? Can Allah create another Allah? 'la illaha ila 'Llah'. Erik. ------------------------------ From: sarmad@ezonline.com (James Brody) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 02:36:35 GMT Subject: Re: Ibn Ata'Illah's Sufi Aphorisms translated by Victor Danner On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:35:50 +1000 (EST), you wrote: > >Assalamu alaikum, > >A. N. Durkee mentioned this book (see subject heading). Do you >know where I can get it? > >(I'm mailing to the list in case anyone else is also interested.) > >Wassalam, > >Fariduddien Rice > > Sufi Bookstore West Broadway NYC ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Good Morning! (fwd) Subject: Good Morning! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 06:02:40 -0500 From: "Wm. Whitney" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v3.0 Cc: Julia White - -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- >Attach WJE0729> Mitakuye oyasin! - We Are One People.... As you can see, I've started this email before, hence the reverse presentation of dates.... Not to be too confusing, I'm back online after an exciting summer, but I'm being repetitive.... so, let's start over with an excerpt from my journal of ..... 7/25/96 4:15 AM_ HC 3263* The Panther's Digest Report on ICCC Achievements & Activities Electronic Edition Quote for the Day: "Let's Try It Again... It does get better!" Gotta keep those monkeys busy or they'll think they still have control! What a strange and grand trip!.... not to coin off the Moody Blues.... What a Summer! Well, I'm back!.... for a little while anyway. I've got a short break before the next round. If you have sent me private email over the last few weeks, I will have responses to you as quickly as I can. Thank you for your patience. This summer has been filled with anticipations, celebrations, special journeys, pow wows, gatherings.... a virtual reality quite different from this screen. You may know that I have been traveling this summer, working on our community projects, negotiating working capital and funding for our first projects this year.... without a laptop.... missing my old Isusu.... missing my friends on the net, watching your growth, courage against chaos, growing awareness of the vastness of this new eWorld we share. I can't help but awe at this virtually living creature we have created.... this "common minde" shared through the most deceptive mediums. Listening to 40 million or so voices, each singing slightly off key, each striving to rise above the others, has to give Gais a headache! Well, my most severe headache will be cured soon by a new Eddie Bauer Special Edition of the Ford Explorer, the Ford "Fairlane" of "sport/utility" vehicles, and a new multimedia laptop! At least I can stay in touch a bit better. Occasionally, I've taken a sampling of the net activity.... really challenged by the growth and depth shown in the EcoPsychology newsgroup, the ever evolving dialogue in Tariqas and Winged Heart, et al.... then I would borrow the time (not to mention a laptop) to browse {I'm still not surfing, yet!} the great WorldWonderWeb!.... that gave a greater>graver picture of how rapidly the latest, greatly refined reality shifts were impacting peoples' lives.... their health.... not to mention their sanity. 8/13/96 5:46 AM Anyway, that kinda brings you up to date with william wanderings..... I can see another column coming from that.... "William's Wanderings: Journals in Chaos.".... not a bad title for the ol' memoires.... ====> Hope you enjoyed the show!.... same time.... same place tomorrow! PE Wm. Whitney/Panther Eagle GaisNet Journalist (c) 1996 paneagle@peoples.net ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #102 *****************************