From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:30:08 1996 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:10:55 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #143 tariqas-digest Monday, 16 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 143 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Earl Yunus Torrey" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:47:20 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) (fwd) Christians apologize to Muslims. I did not write this. Found on the internet. Please read ... and peace for all mankind. The news read: Several months ago, a group of Christians started retracing the 2,000 mile path taken by Crusaders 900 years ago in a "Reconciliation Walk". They started at a Mosque in Germany and plan to travel to Jerusalem. They stop at many places along the way, apologizing to Muslims and others for the atrocities the Crusaders committed "in the name of Christ." All the countries prayer walkers have so far passed through have been well planned and well received. However, now they face the former Yugoslavia, which still currently face their own problems of reconciliation from the war. The Reconciliation Walkers plan to cross in to Serbia 12 September. Here the statement they are bringing to Mosques and Muslim communities along the way: Nine hundred years ago our forefathers carried the name of Jesus Christ into battle across, down and through the Balkans into the Middle East. Fueled by fear, greed and hatred, they betrayed the name of Christ by conducting themselves in a manner contrary to His wishes and character. The Crusaders lifted the banner of the Cross above these people. By this act they corrupted its true meaning of reconciliation, forgiveness and selfless love. On the aniversary of the first Crusade, we also carry the name of Christ. We wish to retrace the footsteps of the Crusaders in apology for their deeds and in determination of the true meaning of the Cross. Their path went thorugh your land. Their actions left their mark on your peoople. We deeply regret the atrocities committed in the name of Christ by our predecessors. We are simple followers of Jesus Christ who have found forgiveness from sin and life in Him. We renounce greed, hatred and fear, and condemn all violence done in the name of Jesus Christ. Where they were motivated by hatred and prejudice, we offer love and brotherhood. Jesus the Messiah came to give life. Forgive us for allowing His name to be assoicated with death. Please accept again the true meaning of the Messiah's words: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has annointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." As we go we bless you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. The end of news. May God bless us all on our journey in life. Peace be for all Mankind. Blessings' Earl Yunus Torrey ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He first loved us, 1 John 4:10 ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:52:13 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Desire How beautiful. It sounds the way I feel that marraige should be. Ellen On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Imaan Shivani Joshi wrote: > > Without some form of desire the world would not turn. It is desire that > > spurs us on towards our Beloved. > > Ellen > > as salaamu 'alaikum > Good point, Ellen:-) I agree with this; to me, desire outside of > the lawful/fruitful limits is what is deleterious; many for this reason, > perhaps consider masturbation to be equally harmful, because through it, > one learns to place onself above the needs and concerns of others; I am > not here to debate for or against this point however; what br Asim says, I > think, is not really valid; in Islam, as with everything else, we are > asked to stick to the middle course; at this point in my life, perhaps > until recently, I could foresee that if I remained single for the rest of > my life, it would *not* be a problem, sexually or otherwise; but the > companionship, that is sometimes a thing that we need; man is by nature, > in some ways, a social creature; perhaps for this reason we are asked not > to separate ourselves from our brs and srs, the good pple, for long; there > is always the danger that shaytan may lurk there; as for sexual desire and > the such, there are many well known hadeeth which indicate that the > prophet[saw] disliked celibacy and extremes of any form of 'ibada. To me, > the clearest proof of the merits of marriage lie in the verses of > Allah[swt]; that He has created for us mates with whom we may rest and > find peace and tranquility. As with the excitement of any new thing, a > certain degree of extremism is quite normal, although perhaps not > condoned; but this eventually settles. And if we marry because we wish to > protect ourselves from zina, or because we wish to follow the sunna of the > pophet[saw], who has said that any who abandon this institution of > marrige, > is not of my followers, then certainly, we would be performing an act of > worship even by marrying; because Insh'Allah, our niyat is right; > I relate the story of a sister I know; she is greatly interested > in > tasawwuf, as is, I think her husband; she told me they met he proposed and > they went home, prayed on it, and three days later, were married; she gave > me an invaluable lesson on marriage; she told me " I do not look lightly > at my > husband nor do I take him for granted; to me, he is a trust from > Allh[swt], and as such, I have to try my hardest to take good care of him > for His sake; similarly, he sees me as a trust from Him. This baby that I > carry [ she was pregnant then; they have a baby boy now, alHamdulillah.] > is similarly a trust and it will be our responsibility as his parents that > we bring him up right with the proper values. " masha'Allah, I have never > heard this described as such, where each party does this for more than > satisfying his own desires. And actions are judged based on intentions, > are they not? wasalaam. > > > ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:55:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Desire I agree. Every time I have actively pursued a "marraige prospect" it has turned out all wrong. The only solution is to surrender to God's will. Ellen On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Asim Jalis wrote: > Ellen L. Price writes: > > On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, ohla0003 wrote: > > > Asim Jalis wrote: > > > > What is the cure for sexual desire? > > > > > > Marriage. > > > > Ah, but if I could only find someone who wanted to marry me! > > This is the problem with this solution (of "marriage"). As if this was like > clipping your nails: something you could accomplish as soon as you desired > it. Whereas it is obvious that marriage, like finding a shaykh, is > something that happens only when God wills it. > > And so replacing the desire to have sex with the desire to marry doesn't > really solve anything at all. It leads to the same obsession and the same > inflation of the "self". > > If one is in a state of being single one has two options: either feel > incomplete and frustrated by trying to change one's state (either through > sex or marriage), or accept one's present state as the will of God and > surrendering oneself to it. Celibacy or chaste-ness is more a liberation > from sex than the absence of sex. > > Those are my thoughts anyway. Based on my own particular brand of ignorance > and prejudice. > > Asim > ------------------------------ From: millerry@teleport.com (Ryan) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: logic and reason: thanks Thanks you to everyone who responded to my post. One reason I asked the question is because I know a lot about logic, or at least I think I do. I do agree with the statement that logic can only be used to disprove something, and I am also aware that for logic to be useful one must have something experiential to start with; I wasn't trying to imply that I wished to use logic to prove the existance of Him. His existance is a fact that I cannot ignore or refute, I'm sure you all know what I mean. Again thanks to everyone for replying, don't hesitate to continue to reply to my question if you have something to say :) always eager to learn, Ryan ------------------------------ From: padenski@juno.com (Ruthie Roberts) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:07:07 PST Subject: Re: ignorant question... >maarof wrote: > >> Of course there are capable people in this group. Most are >observers, >> and have seen the questions and the answers before. Some are too >lazy >> to give their interpretation of issues. As'salam Aleikum, i have always been taught that an ignorant question, is one that has never been asked. And if you can not give an intelligent answer, then there isn't any reason to respond to a person's question. i don't believe that it is a matter of laziness that a person doesn't respond to questions or issues, but more out of respect because maybe they don't have the proper answers, or they may feel intimidated by their own lack of knowledge and/or experience. Personally, i have only been a murid of the Qadiri Rifa'i Order for a very short time, so i feel inadequate to respond to the various issues brought up in this forum. i have 'lurked in the shadows' for a year and a half in hopes of learning from all of you....and i admit, i am also overly shy which is another reason for my reluctance in posting my views. For me, it isn't 'laziness', or that i even feel capable of replying, it is just that i am a shy and quiet person who knows that there is someone else out there that is more qualified than me to give an appropiate answer. With that said, please excuse me while i step back into the shadows.......... Peace and Blessings, Ruthie padenski@juno.com ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:36:10 -0500 Subject: Re: logic and reason > A question has recently plagued me and I was wondering wheather you >folks could help me out. Only In the past couple years have I been into >religion, however, I have always been interested in science. > Can logic and reason, powerful tools in science, be just as useful >in discovering divine truths? Or is intuition and experience more valued >in religion? > > always eager to learn, Ryan Hello Ryan: I can't tell if you are using the predicates "discovering divine truths" and "in religion" as being synonomos with each other, or not. I would think that most religions are in the business of telling their members what divine truth is; they would be horrified if someone "discovered" a divine truth! Also, I wonder if you are implying a difference between "scientific truth" and "divine truth"? It would seem to me that logic and reason are results of the mind's action, and intuition and experience (spiritual experiences) result from the activities of the heart. When considering the relative value of mind and heart, I am reminded of the words of Inayt Kahn concerning mind and heart. "Does the heart reflect the mind or the mind the heart? In the first place it should be known that the mind is the surface of the heart, and the heart is the depth of the mind. therefore mind and heart are one and the same thing. If you call it a mirror, then the mind is the surface of the mirror and the heart its depth; in the same mirror all is reflected." (Kahn, "The Sufi Message", Katwijk aan Zee, Servire BV. 1982. p.246Bb.) It seems that the nature of logic and reason is to analyze, that is to divide and redivide for examination of the components of an object; while the nature of intuition and spiritual experience is to comprehend similiarities in otherwise disparate occurrences. Which leg is the most valuable to a runner? The right leg or the left leg? Maybe other readers, especially religious readers can shed more light on this topic. John. ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:10:37 -0500 Subject: Re: (Fwd) (fwd) Christians apologize to Muslims. Earl Yunus Torrey wrote: > [snip] > Several months ago, a group of Christians started retracing the 2,000 > mile path taken by Crusaders 900 years ago in a "Reconciliation Walk". > They started at a Mosque in Germany and plan to travel to Jerusalem. > > They stop at many places along the way, apologizing to Muslims and > others for the atrocities the Crusaders committed "in the name of > Christ." > [snip] A beautiful story, Earl. Thanks for passing it on. I wish the travelers a pleasant and fruitful journey. ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:34:15 -0500 Subject: Re: ignorant question... Ruthie Roberts wrote: > [snip] > For me, it isn't 'laziness', or that i even feel capable of replying, > it is just that i am a shy and quiet person who knows that there is > someone else out there that is more qualified than me to give an > appropiate answer. > > With that said, please excuse me while i step back into the > shadows.......... Ruthie, please step back into the sunlight. Already, we feel enlightened by your honesty and radience. You needn't pontificate on things you feel you know nothing about (like I do sometimes). Just tell us about your experiences, or ask questions, or or pass along a little flash of beauty or wonder you have come across. ------------------------------ From: Asim Jalis Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 01:10:23 CDT Subject: RE: Desire Same thing has happened to me (each time I have pursued the idea of marriage things have turned out wrong). So now I think: what if I never got married and my life remained the same as it is now. Is that so bad? And I go over the things about my present life that I like. Which produces some feelings of gratitude and contentment. Still the hardest thing is when I am walking on the street and I see couples holding hands or expressing affection in other ways. It becomes hard to not-think of this issue then. I tell myself that my particular situation is something designed for me by God, and try to put other such wholesome ideas through my head. But it only works for a while. I've been trying to find ways to keep my mind busy when I am on the bus or walking down the street when I am vulnerable to all kinds of impressions. It is easier when I am at home because then I can control my environment. Okay, this is a question for people here: how do you keep your mind in control when you are on the street or on a bus? Dhikr? Anything else? I have only limited success here. Besides thinking about God, which I can only do for so long, I sometimes think about close friends and have imaginary conversations with them. Asim ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:06:04 -0400 Subject: Re: RE: Desire Dear Asim, >>> I see couples holding hands ... <<< I just heard, a couple of days ago, the thought that you fall in love (or rise as the case may have it) when someone makes you feel more yourself. So, now i wonder, how can i make someone, anyone feel more themselves ... i wonder, how can i feel more myself even if i do not have that particular mirror that i jumps up and grabs me right off! .... I wonder where is my Beloved that i may know that i am a Lover .... and i think i have just scratched the surface of the questions but someone said something even more surprising just at the moment i began to really confront my own need of transformation (indeed the only cure for desire is transfromation) I heard these words: "One should not be too focused on one's personal transformation - - you should realize that our own transformation is the transformation of those who are not with us...with the planet. in fact we only make sense in the context of the universe, our impact depends upon our realization. A will and a consciousnes beyond our own will and consciousness is summend...." So, all this happened to me in the last 10 days and your question reminds me of my question ... so maybe it realtes or maybe not ..... - -A ------------------------------ From: Imaan Shivani Joshi Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:56:25 +0800 (SST) Subject: Re: Desire as salaamu 'alaikum Ellen:_) I agree:-) perhaps that is why it is so hard for women like ourselves to find good men to marry:_0 oops! ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:40:52 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Time Salam.Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.said "Dont revile Time (Ad-dahr) for God is Time" Can someone correct this if inaccurate or explain this to me ? At 19:48 9/15/96 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Asim Jalis wrote: > >> Time is an example of something over which there are no >> disagreements even though it exhibits some of the characteristics >> of religious doctrine: (a) it is different in different parts of >> the world and (b) it is perpetually in flux (in fact, by >> definition). >> >> Yet "what is the time" is one of the few questions you can ask a >> complete stranger anywhere in the world and expect a loving >> response. So there is also a concept of people seeking teachers >> and others responding to this need out of love. >> >> What would be nice would be a spiritual watch that could give you >> the same kind of perfect knowledge. >> >> >> Asim >> > THere is. Allah! But one has to be receptive. When one is receptive >the time is right. > >Ellen > > > > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:12:42 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Time Salam sister Suhaila.Perhaps you can check the following for me. At 19:40 9/16/96 +0800, you wrote: >Salam.Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.said "Dont revile Time (Ad-dahr) for God is >Time" Can someone correct this if inaccurate or explain this to me ? >At 19:48 9/15/96 -0700, you wrote: >>On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Asim Jalis wrote: >> >>> Time is an example of something over which there are no >>> disagreements even though it exhibits some of the characteristics >>> of religious doctrine: (a) it is different in different parts of >>> the world and (b) it is perpetually in flux (in fact, by >>> definition). >>> >>> Yet "what is the time" is one of the few questions you can ask a >>> complete stranger anywhere in the world and expect a loving >>> response. So there is also a concept of people seeking teachers >>> and others responding to this need out of love. >>> >>> What would be nice would be a spiritual watch that could give you >>> the same kind of perfect knowledge. >>> >>> >>> Asim >>> >> THere is. Allah! But one has to be receptive. When one is receptive >>the time is right. >> >>Ellen >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------ From: dances Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 06:41:36 -0800 Subject: RE: Desire Union implies being the world. Any imaginary line you draw is just that imaginary! There is nothing defiled by Unity. James Hallam ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Most Beautiful Names - (9) Al-'Azeez (fwd) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:39:10 -0400 From: Bryan Conn X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas Subject: The Most Beautiful Names - (9) Al-'Azeez Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Assalaamu Alaikum The following is from "The Most Beautiful Names" compiled by Sheik Tosun Bayrak, published by Threshold Books - Amana Books. ________________________________________________________________________ Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful ________________________________________________________________________ _ Al-'Aziz He is the Victorious One whom no force can overwhelm. There is no strength in this universe that can stand before this will. _ Al-'Aziz appears often in the Holy Qur'an in relation to verses of punishment. Although Allah's power is victorious over all, like the true victor, He delays punishment. He does not hurry to destroy the one who persists in revolt and sin. The one who is strong, but does not exercise his strength, who is not _ vengeful, reflects the beautiful name of al-'Aziz. ________________________________________________________________________ Allah hafez (May Allah Protect you), bryan - -- Birdsong brings relief to my longing. I am just as ecstatic as they are, but with nothing to say! Please, universal soul, practice some song, or something, through me! - Rumi via Coleman Barks ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:53:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Contradiction W'alaikum assalam. On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 i-k@dircon.co.uk wrote: > > > / | \ | || > Assalamu alaikum o_\__,_|_s o )/|_w_|| > ( : ( > Is it a contradiction to find a person to be quite self-centred and yet > very generous by nature? We humanoids are full of contradictions. Including the host of this list. I think you have just described me :-) Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ignorant question... Assalamu alaikum. On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Carol Woodsong wrote: > Hello friends, :) > > Please forgive my ignorant question(s). I realize that this forum is an > 'open' forum, but it is also primarily a Sufi forum (at least as i > understand it). Recently there have been several questions asked here. > What confuses me is not that these questions are being asked <>, > but the 'tone' of the questions (and answers). It seems to me that the > questions are being asked as though there is always a 'right' and 'wrong' > answer to these questions, not simply an array of possible ways of seeing > a particular issue/question. Is this a Sufi perspective? > > If we want to assume that there is /an/ answer to these questions, do we > also assume that there are those here who are capable and/or authorized > to answer these questions conclusively? If so, would this be an > accepted 'Sufi' answer? Do we ask for credentials of those giving > 'answers'? > > Again, i know my questions are extremely ignorant. I do not know what it > means to be Sufi... i would be grateful if someone could help me > understand. > > Please forgive me if my questions seem offensive. I wish no one offense! > I ask, because i am confused. I was thinking that Sufis believed that > one must find one's own 'answers'.... am i wrong? Different Sufis believe many different things at different times. In my belief, belief is not the key to what makes a Sufi -- it is what is in the heart that counts. There also is often a big difference in "beliefs" between Sufis and people who are following the Sufi path. In my belief, the term Sufi means something like "enlightened being" in some other traditions, and therefore only applies to some of us (and only God REALLY knows who is who). Sooooo, you will find Sufis that believe that one must find one's own answers, as well as Sufis that believe that the answers are laid out in the Holy Qu'ran, as well as the life of the Prophet (may peace be upon him). What appears to be a contradiction may in fact be a contradiction, or may be differences that are unimportant, or may (in many cases) be differences in TEACHING styles used by different Sufis in different times as needed to reach different audiences. Some Sufis teaching "Westerners" who are programmed to think that individuality is terribly important may teach people to follow their own minds (hearts). Some Sufis teaching "Westerners" may try to break through this obsession with individuality by teaching the importance of authority, respect, Adab (courtesy etc.). Some Sufis teaching "Easterners" who are programmed to think that authority is terribly important may teach people to follow authority. Some Sufis teaching "Easterners" may try to break through this obsession with authority by teaching the importance of independent judgement and following your own heart to find your own Truth. It basically comes down to what you need as a student. For the teacher, the Sufi, the enlightened being, questions like this probably aren't too terribly worried about :-) Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: good bye (fwd) From: malik@uni-muenster.de (Aurangseb Malik) Reply-To: malik@uni-muenster.de Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 12:09:18 -0400 To: Tariqas Mailing List Subject: good bye X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.04 (Unregistered) Asalamoaleikum, i am sad to say that i must leave this list for now. I thank all of you for the support and information i received here even though i had too little time dealing with this huge amounts of information. As i will move to Pakistan in a few weeks i don't have the time to stay here. Have a good time! Aorangzeb. - --- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Aurangseb Malik * Josef Beckmann Str. 9 * 48159 Muenster * Germany Phone ++49+251-218236 * email malik@uni-muenster.de to receive my PGP public key mail me with subject 'keyrequest' - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #143 *****************************