From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:08:17 1996 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:28:39 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #147 tariqas-digest Thursday, 19 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 147 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:18:30 -0400 Subject: Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon In a message dated 96-09-18 20:48:35 EDT, you write: >Subj: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon >Date: 96-09-18 20:48:35 EDT >From: ASHA101@aol.com >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > >Dear Jinavamasa, >re:the strange bit about sayten, the full moon and sex prohibitions. I assume that this is meant for Jinavamsa (of which Jinavasma in the subject line and Jinavamasa in the salutation above would just be variations on a theme). With that assumption operating, let me reply. I didn't say it was strange. Due to my inability to understand and sense what it was really getting at, or what its basis was, I just couldn't swallow it! (or is that mixing metaphors, what with historic or mythic apples dropping off of trees and all, given this explicit reference to sayten/Satan?) > you wrote: > >>>this one is a bit >difficult to connect with *anything* in experience for me.<<<<<<< > I was just reading along and saw something that might be relevant. The >subject was (partly) the Alam-al-Mithal, the Realm of the Creative >Imagination, which is a plane of consciousness. That is not to explain what >this notion full moon and saytan means but that such statements have ther >meaning couched in refrences that require a knowledge of the palace of >mirrors ... yes, well, the khaana'i aayina or aayihneh khaaneh (ainey khaney) is something the Pir wrote about quite long ago, but I don't follow the point you are raising here. >Anyway, the following was from a speach by Zia khan ... > "...according to Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, >when the organized religions speak of the punishments of hell and the rewards >of paradise, it is a reference to this world (Alam-al-Mithal), where >everything has >its counterpart. Every physical act, every thought, has a form, a subtle >form which corresponds to it and arises out of it. Every form in this >world, every movement, every gesture, everything which comes out of volition >sends ripples into that world and creates that world, because that world was >not created except by us. Which is why it is referred to >as the "plane of creative imagination." >.... >- Asha > > hello Asha, good to hear from you again. I appreciate your posting this to me, and I do understand what you are writing. That is, at least, I do understand to some extent the relation between our creative imagination and what can then become manifest in the world. I do not know Zia Khan, although perhaps this is a descendent of the Pir HIK? (I cannot tell if I like the writings of HIK more than his son or not. not really a problem, just an expression of appreciation.) I was asking more about the idea that even if we knew what Satan does and knew when he?/she?/it?/they? had that form of sexuality, whatever that might be, what would this knowledge do in terms of our own thinking, attitudes, decisions, and actions in the sexual realm? if I again go back to the original topic (as part of my meditative practice of trying not to lose the forest for the trees), it is an interesting question of why sexual relations at the time of the full moon would be prohibited, if in fact they are prohibited, and as some postings have suggested, there is perhaps no traditional Muslim backing to this claim. Anyway, whatever the outcome of that question, at the full moon time there are strong energies moving about (as most people who have worked at a psychiatric front desk or for the police or in hospital emergency rooms will know). A question, then: is this sort of prohibition (whatever its source) a way to keep from tapping into the intensity of sexuality that might be vibrating through the universe at such times? I wonder if other traditions either encourage or discourage sexuality in terms of full moon moments. as for example in "native" traditions .... just a wondering out loud (I mean visually of course). thanks again, and good to hear from you. in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:22:06 -0700 Subject: [Re: translation and transliteration] V'alaykum asalam There is a considerable debate in some Esoteric Jewish circles about the roots as being two letter versus three letter roots. Considerable emphasis on this is found on some of the older 13 century commentaries on sefer yetsira. Are there similar discussions regarding Arabic roots or perhaps Persian? Some of the discussions relate to energy flows correlated with the binary associations? Again any correlations? Thanks Raqib A. N. Durkee Green Mountain Wrote: > >roots, roots, roots and more roots is the way to proficency in >understanding. know the roots and learn the changes. it is a vast ocean of >meaning with many subtle shfifts, nuances and illuminations but in the end >it always comes back down to the roots. > Snipped >this gives great depth and width to understanding. > - -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> ------------------------------ From: "M.I.S. DEPT" Date: Wed, 18 SEP 96 21:44:40 Subject: Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon Have you ever heard of a Hadith which says , "if you do not read the pre- sexual activity verse , shaytan will have sex with your wife too?. This shows that syatan do enjoy sexual activities as we human do. Salam Noordin ------------------------------ From: "Khalil S. Ohlander" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:53:32 Subject: 'Attar on Stage! as salamu 'alaykum all- I thought that I would let everyone know that there is going to be a stage production of 'Attar's 'Conference of the Birds' at the Theatre de la Jeune Lune here in Minneapolis. The production opens Sept. 26th and closes Oct.13th; and is being produced by Pangea World Theater, a group committed to performing international works which illuminate the universal human condition. This classic piece of Sufi literature was adapted for stage by Meena Natarajan and is being directed by Dipankar Mukherjee. As many know, 'Attar's classic tale metaphorically maps out the journey of the human spirit in its quest for Truth through the exploits of a gathering of birds; who, eventually discover that the Truth they yearn for is really much closer than they orginally thought. I, personally, am quite excited about the whole event, and invite anyone who would like to go to contact me for more details. Peace and Blessings- Erik S. Ohlander ohla0003@maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:06:49 -0700 Subject: Re: 'Attar on Stage! Are you familiar with Peter Brook's consumate treatment of this piece? About 15 years ago for 3 years he traveled all the world presenting it - -- even went to Afghanistan. It's frequently repeated at his _Centre du Theatre_ in Paris. It's a great production they use Balinese masks to play all the characters -- all done with only 8 actors. Khalil S. Ohlander wrote: > > as salamu 'alaykum all- > > I thought that I would let everyone know that there is going to be a stage > production of 'Attar's 'Conference of the Birds' at the Theatre de la Jeune > Lune here in Minneapolis. The production opens Sept. 26th and closes > Oct.13th; and is being produced by Pangea World Theater, a group committed > to performing international works which illuminate the universal human > condition. > > This classic piece of Sufi literature was adapted for stage by Meena > Natarajan and is being directed by Dipankar Mukherjee. As many know, > 'Attar's classic tale metaphorically maps out the journey of the human > spirit in its quest for Truth through the exploits of a gathering of birds; > who, eventually discover that the Truth they yearn for is really much closer > than they orginally thought. > > I, personally, am quite excited about the whole event, and invite anyone who > would like to go to contact me for more details. > > Peace and Blessings- > > Erik S. Ohlander > ohla0003@maroon.tc.umn.edu > ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:14:31 +0800 Subject: Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon On Wed, 18 SEP 96, "M.I.S. DEPT" wrote: >Have you ever heard of a Hadith which says , "if you do not read the pre- >sexual activity verse , shaytan will have sex with your wife too?. This shows that syatan do enjoy sexual activities as we human do. > >Salam >Noordin > > It is the man who is assumed satan in this case. You still haven't provide details about the hadith on full moon. - -maarof ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:51:30 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Attar on Stage! Idries Shaw, in The Sufis, states that Pilgrims Progress (by Chaucer, I think) was based on the same theme as Parliament of the Birds by Attar. He describes Parliament of the Birds in some detail, showing how it portrays the stages of development of a Sufi. The birds learn that they have to traverse seven valleys: 1. Valley of the Quest 2. Valley of Love 3. Valley of Intuitive Knowledge 4. Valley of Detachment 5. Valley of Unification 6. Valley of Astonishment 7. Valley of Death In the last stage the Seeker learns how "an indidual drop may be merged with an ocean, and still remain meaningful. He has found his place." This must make a very interesting play -- I wish I could see it. Wa salaam, Craig ------------------------------ From: Imaan Shivani Joshi Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:50:10 +0800 (SST) Subject: Re: 'Attar on Stage! > Idries Shaw, in The Sufis, states that Pilgrims Progress (by Chaucer, I think) > was based on the same theme as Parliament of the Birds by Attar. > > He describes Parliament of the Birds in some detail, showing how it portrays > the stages of development of a Sufi. The birds learn that they have to > traverse seven valleys: > 1. Valley of the Quest > 2. Valley of Love > 3. Valley of Intuitive Knowledge > 4. Valley of Detachment > 5. Valley of Unification > 6. Valley of Astonishment > 7. Valley of Death > > In the last stage the Seeker learns how "an indidual drop may be merged > with an ocean, and still remain meaningful. He has found his place." > > This must make a very interesting play -- I wish I could see it. as salaamu 'alaikum I too wish I could see it:-) It must be good:-) wasalaam. Imaan ------------------------------ From: Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor Date: 19 Sep 96 8:43:14 Subject: Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon Noordin wrote:- >>Have you ever heard of a Hadith which says , "if you do not read the pre- >>sexual activity verse , shaytan will have sex with your wife too?. This shows that syatan do enjoy sexual activities as we >>human do. Come on now Noor, That is extremely paranoid, Where are you getting all this weird information. I looks more like pagan superstition than anything to do with Islam. regards; Sayeed ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:12:25 -0700 Subject: RUMI 1419 I WAS READY TO TELL the story of my life but the ripple of tears and the agony of my heart wouldn't let me i began to stutter saying a word here and there and all along i felt as tender as a crystal ready to be shattered in this stormy sea we call life all the big ships come apart board by board how can i survive riding a lonely little boat with no oars and no arms my boat did finally break by the waves and i broke free as i tied myself to a single board though the panic is gone i am now offended why should i be so helpless rising with one wave and falling with the next i don't know if i am nonexistence while i exist but i know for sure when i am i am not but when i am not then i am now how can i be a skeptic about the resurrection and coming to life again since in this world i have many times like my own imagination died and been born again that is why after a long agonizing life as a hunter i finally let go and got hunted down and became free ghazal number 1419, translated April 17, 1991, by Nader Khalili tanzen ------------------------------ From: dances Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:33:22 -0800 Subject: Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon;ow-oooh oh brave wolf! >Noordin wrote:- >>>Have you ever heard of a Hadith which says , "if you do not read the pre- >>>sexual activity verse , shaytan will have sex with your wife too?. This >>>shows >that syatan do enjoy sexual activities as we >>human do. > > >Come on now Noor, That is extremely paranoid, Where are you getting all this >weird information. >I looks more like pagan superstition than anything to do with Islam. > >regards; >Sayeed > > >.- Salaam Friends This is getting real interesting.So are we channeling the schlep "shyten" or is he going to make a $44 dollar appearance in black tie? If I exist then its an Illusion If Satan exists there is no "La elah ill'lah lah" If God is :what else is there? What are we running here a co-op? No partners Could be just jealousy masking itself as Islam. If you laughed a bit then I wish happiness for you james hallam ------------------------------ From: gmtn@mail.comet.net (Green Mountain School) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:45:42 -0500 Subject: transliteration as-salaamu 'alaykum, in the realm of transliteration, aside from what Lily has mentioned, there are a number of possiblities of which i am aware. first of all anyone who is using windows 95 {mac 88} machines should know of a program called "al-Alim" which contains so many useful items that for the first time i have considered putting a windows card in my mac just to be able to use this program {i have asked and they have no plans for porting it to the mac}. you can get info on this from any number of different www islamic sites. in addition to having multiple "translations" it also has transliteration of qur'an and, i believe, some hadith. it is limited insofar as you can't carry yr. computer around with you the way you can a book but it is very very useful. then there is M.A.Haleem Eliasii's transliteration of the Qur'an along with Muhammad Pickthall's trans that you can probably find thru contacting any large Islamic Book Service which you can also reference thru www islamic sites. this is useful but the arabic is poorly printed and very small for learners but it is useful to learners. then there is a rendition of juz' 'amma {which is last 30th of the qur'an} which contains a lot of short suras which are 'easy' for those who are beginning to get by heart. this is published by Iqra' international educational foundation in Chicago. {you could get number from info} this would also be a help in the beginning prior to actually learning arabic. in the end tho the best thing is to learn arabic as it is the key and the passegeway to depth and meaning. check universities or masaajid where there are arab students. they of course have their own work loads but one often meets kind brothers who are willing to help you at least get started. there are numerous books related to qur'anic arabic that are self teaching books that help you move step by step in learning arabic. in the end you will need a real human being but in the beginning given you are living in the west the suggestions i offer will, inshallah, help you to get moving. the real problem of course is pronunciation which imho can only be learned from some one who is in the line of qur'anic tajweed transmission. this is due to the degeneration of dialect so that many arabs today do not pronounce arabic correctly not to mention people whose mother tongue is not arabic even tho they may be the best of muslims. i myself began almost thirty years ago to learn arabic and i am still learning. but i have learned many things in the course of that time and i urge all who have the interest to try to learn arabic as it is the key to much deep understanding on so many different levels. A. N. Durkee Green Mountain ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:06:05 -0400 Subject: Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon Dear Jinavasma , i guess what struck me was that my own interest in wondering what was the intuition at the base of the statement about full moons and sayten and stuff. Beyond understanding wether or not it really is an hadith or a silly statement or anything that relates to scholastic understanding, i was hoping to first understand what was said in the same way as the speaker. If i can't then probably it makes no difference to me whether it is a hadith or whatever. I certainly agree with your desire to understand things like, is the word Sayten the same as Saten and all the other similar spellings, i.e. wondering if i'm reading his words as he ment them. I too have no idea what such lines mean but i am neither intrested in a scholastic debate nor in a debate of personal opinions on wether the meaning of such a line is a good idea or a bad idea. So you could say my main interest is around how such a line fits with the context of the speakers view of how the world works. I'm not interested at this time in preaproving the veracity of such lines as i wonder if they can be preaproved. Maybe i'm even wondering out loud, "How do we even consider such statements? ... by worldly knowledge, by just blind acceptance, by philosophic debate?" Not that any of these things is a bad thing, just that this is why i am thinking in the way that i am .... not that that is a good thing i apologise for not being very clear in my expressions, just doing the best i can at the moment... - - love, Asha ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:27:25 -0400 Subject: Pilgrim's Progress [was Re: 'Attar on Stage! In a message dated 96-09-19 01:51:57 EDT, you write: > >Idries Shaw, in The Sufis, states that Pilgrims Progress (by Chaucer, I >think) >was based on the same theme as Parliament of the Birds by Attar. > > John Bunyan, 1678 C.E. in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:27:23 -0400 Subject: Saytan having sex with one's wife [Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon hello Noordin and all, In a message dated 96-09-19 00:48:29 EDT, you write: >Have you ever heard of a Hadith which says , "if you do not read the pre- >sexual activity verse , shaytan will have sex with your wife too?. This shows >that syatan do enjoy sexual activities as we human do. >Salam >Noordin ................hello Noordin and all, This Hadith seems to be speaking to men. If a wife does not read the pre-sexual activity verse, will shaytan have sex with her husband, too? Even if not, there must be billions of women with whom Saytan is having sex quite regularly (taking only the population of Asia which is not Islamic). He/they must be quite busy. I hope it's not creating a problem for anyone. what are you saying? in peace, Jinavamsa (its more usual spelling) ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:16:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Saytan having sex with one's wife [Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon Hello, everybody! > what are you saying? Satan, saytan, shaitan, shaytan... elements of mind, not spirit. Oh, how humanity lives in states of confusion! > in peace, > Jinavamsa (its more usual spelling) Yep, you are definitely a jina-vam-sa and not a jina-vas-ma. How could you be other than a vam-sa? Peace and love, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:28:05 -0400 Subject: Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon In a message dated 96-09-19 11:10:32 EDT, you write: >So you could say my main interest is around how such a line fits >with the context of the speakers view of how the world works. I'm not >interested at this time in preaproving the veracity of such lines as i wonder >if they can be preaproved. > Maybe i'm even wondering out loud, "How do we even consider such >statements? ... by worldly knowledge, by just blind acceptance, by >philosophic debate?" Not that any of these things is a bad thing, just that >this is why i am thinking in the way that i am .... not that that is a good >thing >i apologise for not being very clear in my expressions, just doing the best i >can at the moment... >- love, Asha > > hello Asha, Well, maybe the writer (I take it that this would be Noordin) will be kind enough to provide you with answers to your questions about the world-view that the statements about saytan here fit into. (... assuming here you don't mind my ending a sentence with a particle/preposition). (You know Churchill's attitude on such matters, perhaps, but that's another topic.) ta ta and in peace, Jinavamsa (the usual spelling) ------------------------------ From: Abdin Chande Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 04:58:29 -0400 Subject: Dance and Theatre (Sufi women) Salaams good folks! A professor who is preparing a book/more properly a dictionary on "Dance and Theatre" in the context of WOMEN AND RELIGION wanted to know if I could suggest some books (i.e. with respect to Islam) which treat this subject. This being a tariqas discussion list I am sure some of you may have information on "dance and theatre" in the context of Sufi women here in North America or elsewhere. Thanks, A.C. ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:17:11 -0700 Subject: Women on the sidewalk Hello, I just don't know what to do with Muslim women. I mean, If I am walking down a sidewalk on a nice sunny day and a Muslim woman is comming towards me, what should I do? Ignore her? Give her salaams? What? The same in the masjid. Now I know that a man is not supposed to touch a woman in the masjid as it breaks his wudhu but what about in areas just outside the masjid, ie the hall ways, the kitchen, or just outside? With Muslim women, I never know if I am being cold and snobish or if I am being obscenely forward. Now I know that I have already made the mistake of lumping all Muslim women together as if they were all the same, but there must be some general advice that I could apply. Peace - -- - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:08:07 -0700 Subject: Re: 'Attar on Stage! Craig Johannsen wrote: > > Idries Shaw, in The Sufis, states that Pilgrims Progress (by Chaucer, I think) > was based on the same theme as Parliament of the Birds by Attar. > > He describes Parliament of the Birds in some detail, showing how it portrays > the stages of development of a Sufi. The birds learn that they have to > traverse seven valleys: > 1. Valley of the Quest > 2. Valley of Love > 3. Valley of Intuitive Knowledge > 4. Valley of Detachment > 5. Valley of Unification > 6. Valley of Astonishment > 7. Valley of Death > > In the last stage the Seeker learns how "an indidual drop may be merged > with an ocean, and still remain meaningful. He has found his place." > > This must make a very interesting play -- I wish I could see it. > > Wa salaam, > Craig Right on! Chaucer is a personal favourite of mine. When I was in college, my Lit. proffessor and I would have these long, enjoyable arguements over who is the "best" (we weren't being entirely serious of course) writer in the English language. Being young and foolish, I voted for the ever impressive William Shakesphere. My proffessor preffered Chaucer. His point was that not only is Chaucer readable for everyone and very funny, but that his work is intended to bring all of us closer to ourselves and to God. Mr. Fisher would be very amused to hear that I've come to agree with him, in spite of my undying love for W.S.! I've seen Cantebury Tales adapted for the stage plenty of times, but I've never heard of anyone doing Pilgrim's Progress. I'll look into it though, I'm always on the lookout for fun projects. Aaron ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #147 *****************************